Dark Night of the Soul?

[BarbaraTherese]

Compartments… like that 60’s song about Little Boxes. We do like to categorize, label and organize those around us don’t we (as a society).

Yes we do! Labelling others and putting them into a nice tidy comparment neatly filed for future referece, creates for us humans an illusion of security at least in part.
“Who is that other?”
“Ahhh, this is that other!”
I am not confronted with a totally unpredictable stranger, rather someone that I have all neatly summed up.

Eccentrics and ‘weird’ people suddently act, speak or think, outside the box, outside squares and social ‘compartments’…this is breaking our nice tidy social expectations!!! And heaps of damage can be done by expectations and human beings, almost as much as jumping to conclusions I think!

Blesings, Roza…regards…Barb
PS…We are totally off topic, Roza…and I am concerned about Eli4n4 who opened this thread, which was really not about The Dark Night per se either, rather about his/her current difficulty with prayer … he/she has been silent for a long time now and no wonder, mea culpa, and I am really wondering if the help sought was in fact obtained. If I dont get an answer to my post to Eli4n4, I’ll whizz off a PM. I feel dreadful about this post being off topic, Eli4n4 is only a new member!!!

 

[beckycmarie]

I have been reading Father Aumann’s “Spiritual Theology”

Hi Barb,

I keep a link to Spiritual Theology in my bookmarks and refer to it often. I find the topic fascinating! That link to “Mysticism in General” from EWTN is another favorite quick reference of mine.

I thought you and some others might enjoy this link as well, if you haven’t already seen it:

The Three Ages of the Interior Life
by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Barb,

I keep a link to Spiritual Theology in my bookmarks and refer to it often. I find the topic fascinating! That link to “Mysticism in General” from EWTN is another favorite quick reference of mine.

I thought you and some others might enjoy this link as well, if you haven’t already seen it:

The Three Ages of the Interior Life
by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.

Hi Becky…Thank you for the post. Both “Spiritual Theology” and also “The Three Ages of the Interior Life” are familiar to me, although only since I had this computer. I came across the link to “Mysticism in General” yesterday while reading about Padres Pio. I must admit that nowadays a strict ‘diet’ of the mystical does not interest me, although I have read much about it in the past. The subjects still holds interest as a spasmodic type of event.

Barb

 

[JReducation]

I have been reading Father Aumann’s “Spiritual Theology” and how the Mystical Dark Night immediately precedes Union between the sixth and seventh mansions according to Fr. Aumann, and it struck me again that the Theological Dark Night is such a loft state indeed! And again, reading about tomorrow’s feast (for me here in Australia) and Padre Pio, I came across this from EWTN and it again came home to me with full force the lofty nature of The Mystical Dark Night of The Spirit…and that no wonder it is the lot of very few since it immediately precedes the Seventh Mansion and the Spiritual Marriage or Mystical Marriage…these matters are mysticism indeed. And I think it was St. Teresa of Avila who commented that for some TDN may last for the whole of life.
ewtn.com/padrepio/mystic/general.htm

.

If it’s the same book I’m thinking about Father was one of my professors of Mystical Theology when I was getting my degree in Mystical Theology. He is awesome. I loved his classes. They were very powerful. His exaination question for my degree was the bomb!!!

Fraternally,

JR

 

[BarbaraTherese]

If it’s the same book I’m thinking about Father was one of my professors of Mystical Theology when I was getting my degree in Mystical Theology. He is awesome. I loved his classes. They were very powerful. His exaination question for my degree was the bomb!!!

Fraternally,

JR

Hi again JR…I think I recall you mentioning this in a Post a long time ago - or my long term memory is as bad as my short term! I know I do quote from Fr. Aumann now and then. Wow! I think you must be a great in mystical theology if you were trained and passed Fr. Aumann. I am an Aussie, JR…and here “was the bomb” would mean that one bomed out or failed, which I dont think you mean at all!
Can you relate your examination question if it is not an entire thesis of its own? I was educated in College by Dominicans and treasure that education even though it often stretched my logic and theology to breaking point.

Blessings JR…and my regards…Barb

 

[JReducation]

Hi again JR…I think I recall you mentioning this in a Post a long time ago - or my long term memory is as bad as my short term! I know I do quote from Fr. Aumann now and then. Wow! I think you must be a great in mystical theology if you were trained and passed Fr. Aumann. I am an Aussie, JR…and here “was the bomb” would mean that one bomed out or failed, which I dont think you mean at all!
Can you relate your examination question if it is not an entire thesis of its own? I was educated in College by Dominicans and treasure that education even though it often stretched my logic and theology to breaking point.

Blessings JR…and my regards…Barb

LOL What I meant by the bomb is that his question was the most difficult question on the exam. The exam is put together by four theologians. They do not discuss the questions with each other. Each submits his question to the Chairman of the department. The chairman then selects six questions and you have to respond to them orally in front of these four theologians. You have two hours for the entire exam. For two hours you are held captive in this room with these men and women. That’s the way it was in my day. I understand that some universities have gone to written exams, but the same idea.

The questio that hit me like a bomb, was “Using Francisco de Osuna’s Third Spiritual Alphabet explain the relationship between Francis of Assisi’s theology of the Trinity and Teresa of Avila’s theology of mystical union with the God-head.”

I have never sweat so much in my life.

But I got it right and got my degree.

It was complicated because it really required that you explain three mystics: Francis of Assisi, Francisco de Osuna and Teresa of Avila. You had to explain the Trinitarian theology of Francis and that of Teresa of Avila, showing their commonality, and you had to explain how the Third Spiitual Alphabet was a summary of Franciscan Mystical Theology, yet compatible with the ancient contemplative spirituality of Carmel that Teresa of Avila re-introduced into the Church. You had to justify the existence of the two spiritualities: Carmelite and Franciscan. Otherwise, there would never have been a need for a Carmelite reform, as Francis of Assisi and Francisco de Osuna predate Teresa of Avila.

In the end you have to say "Francis of Assisi’s Trinitarian theology was blah blah blah. Francisco de Osuna observes the development of that theology by observing Francis of Assisi’s journey to the Trinity and represents it using this and that methodology, which responded to the needs of the Carmelite Order in such and such a way. However, they maintain their distinct characters because despite their commonalities, the same theology is used to serve the Trinity in two ways of life, Franciscan and Carmelite, that are complementary but unique, thus reflecting the unity and diversity in the Trinity.

Hope you enjoy this.

JR

 

[BarbaraTherese]

LOL What I meant by the bomb is that his question was the most difficult question on the exam. The exam is put together by four theologians. They do not discuss the questions with each other. Each submits his question to the Chairman of the department. The chairman then selects six questions and you have to respond to them orally in front of these four theologians. You have two hours for the entire exam. For two hours you are held captive in this room with these men and women. That’s the way it was in my day. I understand that some universities have gone to written exams, but the same idea.

The questio that hit me like a bomb, was “Using Francisco de Osuna’s Third Spiritual Alphabet explain the relationship between Francis of Assisi’s theology of the Trinity and Teresa of Avila’s theology of mystical union with the God-head.”

I have never sweat so much in my life.

But I got it right and got my degree.

It was complicated because it really required that you explain three mystics: Francis of Assisi, Francisco de Osuna and Teresa of Avila. You had to explain the Trinitarian theology of Francis and that of Teresa of Avila, showing their commonality, and you had to explain how the Third Spiitual Alphabet was a summary of Franciscan Mystical Theology, yet compatible with the ancient contemplative spirituality of Carmel that Teresa of Avila re-introduced into the Church. You had to justify the existence of the two spiritualities: Carmelite and Franciscan. Otherwise, there would never have been a need for a Carmelite reform, as Francis of Assisi and Francisco de Osuna predate Teresa of Avila.

In the end you have to say "Francis of Assisi’s Trinitarian theology was blah blah blah. Francisco de Osuna observes the development of that theology by observing Francis of Assisi’s journey to the Trinity and represents it using this and that methodology, which responded to the needs of the Carmelite Order in such and such a way. However, they maintain their distinct characters because despite their commonalities, the same theology is used to serve the Trinity in two ways of life, Franciscan and Carmelite, that are complementary but unique, thus reflecting the unity and diversity in the Trinity.

Hope you enjoy this.

JR

…http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_100.gif…

I have this “My Potential Potential” List. Many years ago on reading “a wordy mystic is no mystic”, I returned to my list and crossed off “Mystic?”

Heavens above…I’m going back to my list and crossing off
“Theologian?”…mind you that almost completes my list of potential potentials . Two hours with four theologian and having to give off the cuff replies and on such a subject…oh my oh my!
I can’t even understand the question!!! And in such august company, I would not be sweating, I would be laid out on the floor having fainted - and that’s not much of an exaggeration either. Put me in the presence of quality and my inequality overcomes.

I really knew that our meaning of “bomb” was not at all what you meant as I always read your posts if I come across them and with great respect for what you have to say and for your learning…after reading your Post above, my respect for your learning has gone up by 100%…mind you it was very high anyway.

To your final two paragraphs, I can only say…“translation please!”. I actually did enjoy your Post and with great humility and come away even more humbled and always a good thing.

Much contratulations on obtaining your degree and under such horrendous (to me) circumstances.

Thanks JR…God’s blessings and my regards and much respect indeed…Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi again JR…While I think of it, I wonder if you are able to clear a couple of questions up for me. And this way I can know I have the information from a reliable educated source. It’s what we call here “picking the brains”…ie asking questions. I love my Australianness and I love our Aussie way of speaking which is a language all its own almost and very confusing (often quite comically)to non Australians often.
One of the most endearing things for me our Aussie Blessed Mary MacKillop ever stated was on writing to The Holy Father for papal approval of her Order:
“Your Holiness - It is an Australian who speaks.”
… (and all beside the point of this thread I know!) I am often a ‘totally beside the point’ type of gal.
We often term ourselves as “Aussie battlers” (i.e. we wont shrink back from any sort of battle, but go headlong into it and often quite recklessly spontaneous). And Blessed Mary MacKillop was sure an Aussie battler.

1. 
   *]I am sure I read, and I think in St. John of The Cross, that it is not a strict rule that The Dark Night of Sense will and must precede The Dark Night of The Soul?
   *]If my comments are correct, can you give me any sort of reference to the reputable text (which I think is from St. John) where this is stated.
   *]My other great curiousity on this subject is, must The Dark Night of Sense occur at all, or could a person go into The Dark Night of The Soul without ever experiencing that of the senses?
   *]It seems to me illogical the The Dark Night of The Spirit could occur followed by that of The Senses? I would presume that in The Dark Night of The Spirit, the senses if not purified and still already would be purified and stilled in the process of the DNof the Spriit…but then I am not a theologian’s bootlace, nor the ground under the boots.
   Actually, after reading my questions, even more questions occur to me, but in reality the subject of mystical theology is not really high up on my list at all, not at all. I am curious about my questions though.
   All texts and references very much appreciated…from anyone incidentally…and it is texts and references that are really most helpful and I can file these away as reliable subject info.
   
   Thanks JR and all…Blessings and my regards…Barb

 

[Joysong]

Many years ago on reading “a wordy mystic is no mystic”, I returned to my list and crossed off “Mystic?”

Hi Barb,

This is not far from the truth, and I believe that as one becomes closer to God, the intellect becomes very simplistic, especially if God has called the person to a contemplative life of recollection. I agonized yesterday trying to find condensed ways of expressing Osuna’s thought to Dave in another thread, and my mind went “TILT!” “OVERLOAD!”

It occurred to me also, that this may be why I avoid those books that are quite lengthly and wordy but have little substance, when what was said could be condensed with just as much meaning. I trust that the Holy Spirit is quite able to fill in the gaps.

You remind me of this in your very poignant signature box called “Simplicity.” Boy, that says a lot, doesn’t it?

Carole

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Joysong:

Hi Barb,

This is not far from the truth, and I believe that as one becomes closer to God, the intellect becomes very simplistic, especially if God has called the person to a contemplative life of recollection. I agonized yesterday trying to find condensed ways of expressing Osuna’s thought to Dave in another thread, and my mind went “TILT!” “OVERLOAD!”

Howdy Carole!..I seem to go through stages and I dont worry myself over it. I remember the first time I read the autobiography of St. Therese, where she wrote that spritual books gave her a headache or something in that line. My eyes and mind boggled because at the time I was on a very strict diet of devouring every remotely spiritual type book I could obtain as well as Lives of the Saints of any form. I thought to myself “Poor Therese, what a dreadful time for her” …LOL muchly!!!
Now and some close to 50 years perhaps later, I have a little more insight.
Also I can be reading and all of a sudden its like a light switch going off, and I just cannot concentrate to read further. Oh for the gift when I am talking or writing!

I must admit when I read “a wordy mystic is no mystic” and goodness knows where I read it…all I could do was laugh…and laugh! Some of our saints sure did a lot of thinking and writing…scuse me please Our Saints! (just joking, Carole)
…thank goodness I have ceased drinking in every single word I read as Gospel…now that doesn’t mean that what I refuse to take onboard is not accurate. I trust in The Lord to bring to my mind what is necessary for me and protect me from what is not.

It occurred to me also, that this may be why I avoid those books that are quite lengthly and wordy but have little substance, when what was said could be condensed with just as much meaning. I trust that the Holy Spirit is quite able to fill in the gaps.

I hang pretty loose with it all, Carole…what will be will be and what will not be will not be…or as Julian of Norwich wrote “all is well, all is well and all manner of things will be well”…or as you say, trust The Holy Spirit …and implicitly and totally always and everywhere in all things. It works!

I am finding that I am prone to headaches, but not for long thankfully…but it is nothing remotely spiritual…rather an indication I have spent too much time at this computer. My son gave me a cell phone (we call them mobiles) and this computer before I knew how to operate one…truly I dont know whether to thank him for them or throw them at him. And even now a few years down the line, people ring me on the cell phone and I push thre red button instead of the green and cut them off!!! …or I forget to recharge and when I do push the right button, the phone goes dead. No wonder I live alone! only a saint could live with me and I’m not a martyr…just a pain.

You remind me of this in your very poignant signature box called “Simplicity.” Boy, that says a lot, doesn’t it?

I dont know even where I found it anymore. When I saw it it charmed me how it could say so much so simply and copied and filed it…and fell over it again when looking for something for a CAF signature. It really is gifted and the full stop alone says so much!

Good to catch up with you again…Barb

 

[Joysong]

Hi Barb,

I think this chapter might be helpful in answering your questions. It seems to me, if you read the ending chapter of Book 1 in the Dark Night, that the preliminary “reformations” of the first night are necessary to enable the person to endure the rigorous night that follows. But you are somewhat correct, that both sense and spirit are purified together in purgations of the second night.

In this purgation, these two portions of the soul will undergo complete purification, for one part is never adequately purged without the other. The real purgation of the senses begins with the spirit. Hence the night of the senses we explained should be called a certain reformation and bridling of the appetite rather than a purgation. The reason is that all the imperfections and disorders of the sensory part are rooted in the spirit and from it receive their strength. All good and evil habits reside in the spirit and until these habits are purged, the senses cannot be completely purified of their rebellions and vices.

1. In this night that follows both parts are jointly purified. This was the purpose of the reformation of the first night and the calm that resulted from it: that the sensory part, united in a certain way with the spirit, might undergo purgation and suffering with greater fortitude. Such is the fortitude necessary for so strong and arduous a purgation that if the lower part in its weakness is not reformed first, and afterward strengthened in God through the experience of sweet and delightful communion with him, it has neither the fortitude nor the preparedness to endure it.

catholictreasury.info/books/dark_night/dn18.php

I think you might enjoy this tidbit, my sister. About a year ago, or even later, we had been discussing this topic in another thread, when I stumbled accidentally on a post in the Back Fence of the forum. A poster had said he read that thread and was so aghast at the substance of the discussion that he thought we were intellectual Greek zombies, of sorts. I couldn’t help but chuckle at his candid remark, for it is certainly a difficult matter to absorb if one has virtually no practical experience.

Carole

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Barb,

I think this chapter might be helpful in answering your questions. It seems to me, if you read the ending chapter of Book 1 in the Dark Night, that the preliminary “reformations” of the first night are necessary to enable the person to endure the rigorous night that follows. But you are somewhat correct, that both sense and spirit are purified together in purgations of the second night.

I think you might enjoy this tidbit, my sister. About a year ago, or even later, we had been discussing this topic in another thread, when I stumbled accidentally on a post in the Back Fence of the forum. A poster had said he read that thread and was so aghast at the substance of the discussion that he thought we were intellectual Greek zombies, of sorts. I couldn’t help but chuckle at his candid remark, for it is certainly a difficult matter to absorb if one has virtually no practical experience.

Carole

Thank you for the extracts, Carole.

Room for all on there ere ship!
All aboard!

I remember when I first read the mystics. I first came across a mystical concept when St. Therese in her autobiography wrote “and this is not the Prayer of Quiet”, thinking “What on earth is she on about”. Quite a while later I picked up a book in a Catholic bookstore and was just flicking through the pages reading here and there when I fell upon the expression “Prayer of Quiet”…and so I bought the book - The Interior Castle. Reading it I thought to myself “what on earth is all this?”. Still later babysitting for someone in my parish then, I saw in her library the complete works of St. Teresa and John of The Cross…I didn’t read much at all despite a real effort to try as it was all Greek to me and to be honest, back then I found it all a bit frightening. I had thought that visions, talking with Jesus (locutions) stigmata and such matters belonged in the middle ages and had ‘died out’ much as our prophets and the age of prophecy belongs to a much earlier history of The Church as prophets per se.
I had a long journey ahead of me indeed.
Either experience helps us along…or The Holy Spirit informs whom He will…and of course the former is a work of The Holy Spirit also.

Blessings Carole…Barb

 

[Roza]

I’ll have to listen to these TTS (so much easier blush). I still end up wanting to blame myself for the health junk from the past thinking it was my dabbling & straying that brought it on but that’s probably wrong thinking. Maybe it’s just an aversion to a doc saying things are idiopathic… of course, I was an idiot too or ID10T.

Thank You JESUS for getting me out of all that garbage!
And Blessed Virgin Mary too… need to remember that rosary from 2005. I have so much to catch up on, learn, keep learning.

 

[Roza]

“TILT!” “OVERLOAD!”

Pinball!!! That used to be my main stress reliever and I always won free games… but I don’t live in that state anymore. sighs

 

[JReducation]

I remember when I first read the mystics. I first came across a mystical concept when St. Therese in her autobiography wrote “and this is not the Prayer of Quiet”, thinking “What on earth is she on about”. Quite a while later I picked up a book in a Catholic bookstore and was just flicking through the pages reading here and there when I fell upon the expression “Prayer of Quiet”…and so I bought the book - The Interior Castle. Reading it I thought to myself “what on earth is all this?”. Still later babysitting for someone in my parish then, I saw in her library the complete works of St. Teresa and John of The Cross…I didn’t read much at all despite a real effort to try as it was all Greek to me and to be honest, back then I found it all a bit frightening. I had thought that visions, talking with Jesus (locutions) stigmata and such matters belonged in the middle ages and had ‘died out’ much as our prophets and the age of prophecy belongs to a much earlier history of The Church as prophets per se.
I had a long journey ahead of me indeed.
Either experience helps us along…or The Holy Spirit informs whom He will…and of course the former is a work of The Holy Spirit also.

Blessings Carole…Barb

Mysticim is alive and well and living in the Catholic Church. Our more famous recent mystics are Mother Teresa and John Paul II.

The problem with the writings of the mystics is that they are under presure to explain something that goes beyond words. They try as hard as they can to get the idea across. The experience itself is quite straightforward.

However, the Church asks these holy people to write about their experiences and to show how happened. This can be very tricky. It requires that the writer pull from metaphysics, theology, scriptures, poetry, liturgy, history and their own culture. When yo put that combination together, it really gets hairy to read through it.

That’s why I always found it better when I read through these works with the guidance of a professor at the university, a retreat master, a spiritual director who is trained in this area of theology or someone who has spent a lot of time with these writings.

I always found this area of theology to be the crux of the Christian life, but not an easy area to study on one’s own without discussing it with others. You really need that feedback from others who are reading the same work. As you go back and forth in the sharing you begin to understand it.

The only person I know who read Teresa of Avila on her own and understood her prefectly was St. Edith Stein. In fact, St. Edith Stein was converted by the writings of Teresa of Avila. After she finished reading them she commented to herself, “This is truth.” But Edith Stein had two PhDs in philosophy and was a university professor of philosophy.

Sometimes the most simple is not always so simple. A good example that I can offer is the writings and life of St. Francis. It looks pretty straightforward when we read it. Then you get someone like Francisco de Osuna or Bonaventure who start to unravel the onion and they start to show you what is happening at the deeper level, it blows your mind away.

I’ll never forget reading Regis Armstrong, OFM Cap on the writings of Clare and Francis of Assisi. When you read the writings they sound simple. When Friar Regis finishes explaining them you realize that you have missed so much, because Francis just assumed that his readers understood what he was talking about. When Friar Regis looks at St. Francis call to follow Christ and then touches on the fact that Francis wrote three rules for three orders and that each rule reflects a person in the Trinity, suddenly these rules don’t seem as simple as they did before. Nonetheless it’s a beautiful and accurate insight. It actually made sense to me in light of the fact that Francis was enamoured of God and God is Trinitarian.

Like this example there are so many. Sometmes it takes a mystic to understand another mystic and translate it so that the rest of us can apply it in our daily life.

By the way there is an excellent book by Fr. Dubey called THE FIRE WITHIN. He’s an awesome writer. You can get it through amazon.co. He talkes about the stages of prayer and the journey of the sould to God using the Carmelite mystics.

Oh, one more thing. Mystics are very wordy. Their experience of God is without words. But their explanations are very wordy. They really have to be, because there is so much richness in these experiences that they want to communicate. There are so many stages that they go through to get there.

To the best of my knowledge, the only mystic who did not write much was Francis of Assisi and the result of not doing so caused so much work for the Church. Because you always have to refer to his life to fill-in the blanks in his writings. Then you end up with thousands of commentaries and they don’t always agree with each other. Today we wish that he has written more and had been more explicit on many things.

Even St. Faustina is very complicated. She writes a great deal about her visions and about her life. But mystical theologians had a lot of work to do to get her canonized. The had to unravel her writings to get inside her soul. When it comes time for canonization the Church is not interested in apparitions, miracles and messages. These do not make the person a saint. The Church is interested in the person’s soul. The postulators for the cause have harder work to do when they have to explore the person’s soul without the benefit of the written word. It’s easier when the person does it themselves, like St. Teresa of Avila and Mother Teresa. By the way, Mother Teresa’s personal journals are no walk in the part, either. LOl

Have you guys read them yet? They are deep.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Joysong]

JR:

However, the Church asks these holy people to write about their experiences and to show how happened. This can be very tricky. It requires that the writer pull from metaphysics, theology, scriptures, poetry, liturgy, history and their own culture. When yo put that combination together, it really gets hairy to read through it.

I disagree that it was the “Church” who asked these people to write. [That would include the ones you mentioned, St. Teresa, St. Therese, St. John of the Cross, and St. Faustina. Nor did these saints pull from samplings you mentioned, but wrote very simply from personal experience, as some were commanded. No bible, no metaphysics, no poetry or history.]

I always found this area of theology to be the crux of the Christian life, but not an easy area to study on one’s own without discussing it with others. You really need that feedback from others who are reading the same work. As you go back and forth in the sharing you begin to understand it.

Again, I disagree. Although it may sometimes be helpful to share or discuss in community, a person who is a recipient of the same gifts will quickly understand by leadings of the Holy Spirit who “hides these things from the wise and prudent, but reveals them to little ones.” Otherwise, it may be as Barb mentioned about a “tree” – a blind person who has never seen “tree” will encounter difficulty comprehending it. Helen Keller comes to mind, who had a terrible time trying to correlate the sign language from her teacher to the object itself.

You may grin at this, JR, but as I was thinking about Barb’s example with the tree, the scripture came to mind about the blind man that Jesus healed. Mk. 8:24 “And looking up, he said: I see men as it were trees, walking.” A blind man would not know that he was seeing “trees” unless perhaps this particular man become blind at a later time in his life – AFTER he knew what a tree was.

The only person I know who read Teresa of Avila on her own and understood her prefectly was St. Edith Stein. In fact, St. Edith Stein was converted by the writings of Teresa of Avila. After she finished reading them she commented to herself, “This is truth.” But Edith Stein had two PhDs in philosophy and was a university professor of philosophy.

Well, maybe I can agree that philosophy would be somewhat helpful in understanding the more practical points of St. Teresa’s teaching with respect to human activity. I assure you, however, in the name of many Carmelites, that the mystical favors may be well understood through the interior teaching of the Holy Spirit who not only gifts the person, but favors them with understanding St. Teresa’s explanation of it. No special degrees are necessary.

I would not want to discourage anyone from reading St. Teresa’s writings, because the Lord may bring difficult portions to light at a later date, even if it is not grasped as one reads.

Carole

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting JReducation:

]Mysticim is alive and well and living in the Catholic Church. Our more famous recent mystics are Mother Teresa and John Paul II.

… …and these are only our more renowned mystics. I really love that prayer at Mass “whose Faith is known only to Thee”. For all we know in the process right at this moment can be some great saints and even great mystics.

The problem with the writings of the mystics is that they are under presure to explain something that goes beyond words. They try as hard as they can to get the idea across. The experience itself is quite straightforward.

This is what I mean by stating that language is most always impoverished. There is a world of difference between the described and the description.(My post on 21September in this thread: .No noun I think does fully depict the actuality. Language has a certain poverty. Certainly with the mystics they are in difficult terrain speaking about their experiences in language…since these experiences are confined to mystics and we do not all have the mystic experience to relate to as we read what the mystics had to say. The language of the mystics is always preceded by an understanding, taken as a for granted, meaning"something like this.For example, if I say “tree” we all have the experience of a tree to relate to of what a tree is like. If I had never seen a tree, I would have no idea what the person was talking about, perhaps a vague understanding if a tree is then described to me. Not so with the language that mystics use other than a vague understanding as they describe their experiences.".)

However, the Church asks these holy people to write about their experiences and to show how happened. This can be very tricky. It requires that the writer pull from metaphysics, theology, scriptures, poetry, liturgy, history and their own culture. When yo put that combination together, it really gets hairy to read through it.

I agree with Carole here that not all our mystical saint writers were asked to write by anyone. I dont think St. John was. And with St. Faustina it was her diaries. And with Mother Teresa her letters and I think portion of her diaries still existing. Unsure.

That’s why I always found it better when I read through these works with the guidance of a professor at the university, a retreat master, a spiritual director who is trained in this area of theology or someone who has spent a lot of time with these writings.

I agree with Carole here. Discussion can be very helpful and especially with those learned in the subject and also reliable as source of information. But we cannot put The Holy Spirit into a box…He doesn’t like it, nor, often, tolerate it

I always found this area of theology to be the crux of the Christian life, but not an easy area to study on one’s own without discussing it with others. You really need that feedback from others who are reading the same work. As you go back and forth in the sharing you begin to understand it.

As I said, discussion can be really helpful and also a great learning process under the condition I mentioned above: especially with the learned and trustworthy, reliable sources.

The only person I know who read Teresa of Avila on her own and understood her prefectly was St. Edith Stein. In fact, St. Edith Stein was converted by the writings of Teresa of Avila. After she finished reading them she commented to herself, “This is truth.” But Edith Stein had two PhDs in philosophy and was a university professor of philosophy.

Perhaps this is so…but again we cannot confine The Holy Spirit in a compartment, box or within boundaries. Perhaps indeed there are thousands or more who are gifted by The Holy Spirit that we know nothing about who insight these mystical works - and probably the most astounded are they themselves.

Sometimes the most simple is not always so simple. A good example that I can offer is the writings and life of St. Francis. It looks pretty straightforward when we read it. Then you get someone like Francisco de Osuna or Bonaventure who start to unravel the onion and they start to show you what is happening at the deeper level, it blows your mind away.

For such as I, some authors take apart and dissect, weigh and measure texts far too much. Perhaps of great interest to scholars. But hey! we littlies exist too equally and sometimes as The Lord said, He will reveal to the littlies what He will hide from the learned and wise.
Have you read by Sr. Ruth Burrows, OCD - “The Interior Castle Explored”…and her lights on, lights off theories and conceptshttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_100.gif…there may be real truth in what she has to say, but I was certainly unprepared for it all. Ahhhhh expectations. Ahhh toooo perspective and attitude. The nuns in her monastery asked her to put her theories into writing, fascinated by them.

…Part 2 next Post

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Part Two
Quoting JReducation

Sometimes the most simple is not always so simple. A good example that I can offer is the writings and life of St. Francis. It looks pretty straightforward when we read it. Then you get someone like Francisco de Osuna or Bonaventure who start to unravel the onion and they start to show you what is happening at the deeper level, it blows your mind away.

For such as I, some authors take appart and dissect, weigh and measure texts far too much. Perhaps of great interest to scholars. But hey! we littlies exist too equally and sometimes as The Lord said, He will reveal to the littlies what He will hide from the learned and wise.
I have five cassettes here of Thomas Merton addressing novices in Gethsemane. Here are the subjects:
Prayer andThe Active Life, Awakening The Heart, The True & False Self, Silence, Love is Enough.
Some of the novices attempt to give very learned and intellectual answers to Tom’s questions…and I had a couple of laughs at his replies. His impatience with them at times.
We littlies may have gifts that the wise and most learned do not have, while they have gifts we do not have. Many gifts of The Holy Spirit - One Body of Christ. Your gifts are mine and mine are yours

Like this example there are so many. Sometmes it takes a mystic to understand another mystic and translate it so that the rest of us can apply it in our daily life.

True…and The Holy Spirit.

By the way there is an excellent book by Fr. Dubey called THE FIRE WITHIN. He’s an awesome writer. You can get it through amazon.co. He talkes about the stages of prayer and the journey of the sould to God using the Carmelite mystics.

Its on my “To Get List” when finances turn my way.

Oh, one more thing. Mystics are very wordy. Their experience of God is without words. But their explanations are very wordy. They really have to be, because there is so much richness in these experiences that they want to communicate. There are so many stages that they go through to get there.

The reason I laughed when I read “wordy mystics are no mystics” is that some of our mystics did much writing indeed. I think probably what the author meant was wordy in prayer. Dunno really.
Oh my Part Three on the way! My very real apologies. Its after midnight here and I dont have time to edit, I am very sorry!!!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

To the best of my knowledge, the only mystic who did not write much was Francis of Assisi and the result of not doing so caused so much work for the Church. Because you always have to refer to his life to fill-in the blanks in his writings. Then you end up with thousands of commentaries and they don’t always agree with each other. Today we wish that he has written more and had been more explicit on many things.
I am a great fan of St. Francis…but I know little about what has been written and I think it was a fellow Franciscan brother who did the writing? Unsure. No matter. Francis knew that The Lord makes saints and if He wants them known to the Universal Church, they will be and if not, then so be it, I am sure.

Even St. Faustina is very complicated. She writes a great deal about her visions and about her life. But mystical theologians had a lot of work to do to get her canonized. The had to unravel her writings to get inside her soul. When it comes time for canonization the Church is not interested in apparitions, miracles and messages. These do not make the person a saint. The Church is interested in the person’s soul. The postulators for the cause have harder work to do when they have to explore the person’s soul without the benefit of the written word. It’s easier when the person does it themselves, like St. Teresa of Avila and Mother Teresa. By the way, Mother Teresa’s personal journals are no walk in the part, either. LOl

Well, I have written somewhere, if my diaries were every to fall into the hands of The Church, the devil’s advocate would have a heart attack

Have you guys read them yet? They are deep.

I must admit that with writings about the intimate spiritual life, I feel about the same way as I would reading about someone’s love affair with a human being. But this is only a peculiarity of mine and no virtue…certainly I love now the diaries of St. Faustina and also what I have read of Mother Teresa for the sound teaching contained in them.

Blessings JR…and also Carole…Thank you very much both for sharing…God’s richest blesssings on you both and yours and with my regards… Lightweight Barb

PS not a comment on my weight for sure
My very real apologies for the length of these posts!

 

[DBT]

BarbaraTherese:

The reason I laughed when I read “wordy mystics are no mystics” is that some of our mystics did much writing indeed. I think probably what the author meant was wordy in prayer. Dunno really.

There you go

“Contemplatives rarely pray with words, when they do they are few.” (The Cloud of Unknowing)

Dave

PS. My definition: A mystic is simply a contemplative given the gift of understanding . . . one who has the ability to explain/teach about the experience of God.