Dark Night of the Soul?

[Joysong]

BarbaraTherese:

Perhaps indeed there are thousands or more who are gifted by The Holy Spirit that we know nothing about who insight these mystical works - and probably the most astounded are they themselves.

Amen, Barb! One who immediately came to mind as I read this was Padre Pio. A special presentation last week revealed that he had mystical experiences in early childhood, but assumed naively that everyone else received these also. He asked his young friend whether he had seen the Madonna, with a very simple assumption that the answer would be yes, of course.

Another holy recipient was Blessed Margaret of Castello, patroness of the unwanted. Blind, crippled, deformed, she lived in seclusion, obviously with no PHD’s, but we know that she passed from meditation to contemplation in which, despite her blindness, she could “see” the Savior.

I know a person who went to a priest for spiritual direction after having received some mystical gifts from God, and assumed he would know how to direct him based upon the priest’s own experiential knowledge, similar to Padre Pio believing everyone else was like himself. To his astonishment and embarrassment, the priest knew not how to direct him. He had no experience.

And there are many such living holy ones, as you said, Barb … simple, unlearned, loving hearts.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Carole…I am pretty much in agreement with what you commented in your response to JReducation HERE
while I have great respect for JR’s knowledge and much interest in what he does share and much of it goes over my head for sure, simply because he is far far better educated than I am…but in The Mystical Body, his knowledge is mine…and I hate to share this with you JR, my knowledge is yours:bigyikes: …

This, I thought, was an important comment, Carole:

I would not want to discourage anyone from reading St. Teresa’s writings, because the Lord may bring difficult portions to light at a later date, even if it is not grasped as one reads.

This is very true! Although the writings of St. John and St. Teresa on my first read left me wondering what on earth they were on about and this is probably perhaps rather common…as one journeys new (name removed by moderator)ut comes in on various levels and one can return to them with a better sense of comfort with what they share abundantly.

I recall from the autobiography of St. Therese that she did go through a time when spiritual works gave her a headache or something to that understanding. Her sole diet of spiritual reading was Scripture. We are all different. Your gifts and failings mine and mine yours! Allleluia Amen. Many gifts - and failings - in The One Mystical Body of Christ, The Church.

Room for all on this ere ship!

“All aboard please!”

Well crawling here towards 1am and I am now officially on term break. Ahhhhhh term breaks:thumbsup:

Thank you both again for what you have shared…and blessings on you both and yours…regards…Barb

 

[mullenpm]

JR, I don’t want to put this discussion on a lower level, and I always find your postings to be enlightening; but, you said “nuns (not sisters)”.

I have never known there to be a difference - what is it?

Sorry people, I am curious.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

JR, I don’t want to put this discussion on a lower level, and I always find your postings to be enlightening; but, you said “nuns (not sisters)”.

I have never known there to be a difference - what is it?

Sorry people, I am curious.

Hi Mullenpm…Good question!

…I have not been able to identify which Post of JR’s you are quoting from…but I will have a try although someone else may be able to quote more authoritatively than me and including from Canon Law. Or I may stand corrected altogether but I dont think so, not completely.

Nuns are enclosed contemplatives in monasteries. Religious Sisters (or just sisters) live in convents usually although nowadays some live in ordinary residential houses with perhaps a few sisters or even alone, as opposed to monasteries, and are not enclosed and are often involved in activities and ministries of many kinds off convent grounds, although some engage in ministries on convent grounds. All have a life of prayer, but monastic nuns are usually committed, I think, to pray The Divine Office in full. That is a very simple understanding and I am pretty sure it is more involved than that as in my opening comments above.
Strictly speaking, the religious life of sisters is lived ‘in community’ of at least two or more…although nowadays due to particular ministry or some other necessity, some do live alone, but this is not recommended by The Church unless absolutely necessary as religious life is a communal life of sisters in this instance by definition. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved, to my knowledge, wherever a religious sister or sisters may live.

The distinction is not generally understood and hence religious sisters are called nuns too. Strictly speaking (theologians and Canon Law splitting of hairs to me) they are not nuns.

Nowadays with new charisma arising in The Church, there are new ways of living out a religious life arising…and The Church is very open to these movements of The Holy Spirit.

:

One great tree, with many branches
917 "From the God-given seed of the counsels a wonderful and wide-spreading tree has grown up in the field of the Lord, branching out into various forms of the religious life

lived in solitude or in community( - my comment: “in solitude” is interesting

. Different religious families have come into existence in which spiritual resources are multiplied for the progress in holiness of their members and for the good of the entire Body of Christ."457
918 From the very beginning of the Church there were men and women who set out to follow Christ with greater liberty, and to imitate him more closely, by practicing the evangelical counsels. They led lives dedicated to God, each in his own way. Many of them, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, became hermits or founded religious families. These the Church, by virtue of her authority, gladly accepted and approved.458 919 Bishops will always strive to discern new gifts of consecrated life granted to the Church by the Holy Spirit; the approval of new forms of consecrated life is reserved to the Apostolic See.459

I am interested in all comments too! Good question! Insofar as I am aware and I have a document here “Fraternal Life in Community” a religious sister per se is living in community. According to the Catechism above, religious life can be lived alone…and of course it can, but I always thought religious life per se according to The Church meant living in community.

I live alone privately vowed and have been told that I am a type of religious sister, a religious sister of type. I smiled…I am definitely not “in the mould” as it was once known or “conversion of manners” (in the mould) as it was once called and getting ‘in the mould’ and ‘converting the manners’ was always my problem.

Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[JReducation]

JR, I don’t want to put this discussion on a lower level, and I always find your postings to be enlightening; but, you said “nuns (not sisters)”.

I have never known there to be a difference - what is it?

Sorry people, I am curious.

Barbara Terese answered it pretty well. Maybe these bullets may help:

NUN:

1. Female religious (obviously)
2. Makes solemn vows that may only be dispensed by the Holy See
3. If a man or woman in solemn vows attempts marriage without a dispensation by the Holy See the sacrament of void and the vows continue to be in full force.
4. Solemn vows override the sacrament of marriage, unless they have been dispensed.
5. The only women religious allowed to make solemn vows
6. Usually live in a monastic community or as hermits
7. Some combine monasticism with active ministry (i.e. Visitation Nuns)
8. In cases such as point seven, those whom they serve come to them, they do not leave the cloister.
9. Each monastery is eventually autonomous and depends on the local bishop for everything.
10. May never interact with the laity directly (except Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration and Visitandines, some others that I don’t know).
11. Belong to a religious order,never to a congregation.
12. There are only the following religious orders in the Catholic Church: Augustinian, Carmelite, Franciscan, Dominican, Trinitarians, Benedictines (several families) and Basilians (Eastern Rite)
13. NEVER governed by males.
14. May never own personal property
15. Communities were founded for the sanctification of their members
16. As part of the Mystical Body, their sanctification contributes to the sanctification of the Church
17. Their only external ministry is to pray for the Church
18. Formation period is usually about six years.
19. They follow a Rule, not a constitution. The rules were written by: Carmel, Francis, Benedict, Basil and Augustine. The nuns cannot change them, nor can any bishop. Only the Pope can add to or delete any part of a rule.
20. Bound to pray the Liturgy of the Hours under pain of mortal sin.
21. Must receive approval from a bishop to setup a house in his diocese.
22. May only leave the cloister only with permission of the Pope or the local bishop.

RELIGIOUS SISTER

1. Make simple vows
2. Simple vows may be dispensed by the Major Superior of the Congregation, in the case of men. If they are women, they must be dispensed by the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes.
3. Men or women in simple vows who attempt marriage without a dispensation are automatically dispensed from the vows and the marriage is valid, but illicit.
4. Belong to apostolic communities
5. Communities are founded for the benefit of the faithful.
6. Formation period may be from 6 to 10 years. It involves spiritual and professional formation.
7. May live in convents or in other forms of community, even alone, depends on the constitutions of the congregation
8. Always belong to a congregation or a society, never an order (i.e. Mother Teresa was a sister and her Missionaries of Charity are a society of apostolic life).
9. Congregations do not follow a rule of life. The Sisters write their rule of life when they meet every six years and they can rewrite it as needed to meet the needs of the Church and the sisters.
10. Not bound to pray the Liturgy of the Hours. The Congregation can decide to use this as their community prayer or another form.
11. Some make vows for life and others renew them annually (i.e. Daughters of Charity and Sisters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul)
12. May own personal property unless the Congregation has a rule against it.
13. Not obliged to wear a religious garb. It’s up to the Sisters to decided this as a community.
14. Constitutions must be approved by the Sacred Congregation for Religous
15. May have a male superior (i.e. a Bishop or the Major Superior of their male counterparts. The Superior of the Daughters of Charity is the Superior General of the Vincentian Fathers).
16. They have more autonomy than nuns. Congregations of Sisters can have Pontifical Right. This means that they can go anywhere in the world without the intervention of a bishop.
17. The local bishop may not interfere in their internal affairs or any ministry that he does not finance.
18. Do not exist in the Eastern Rites

Final example:

Mother Angelica = nun = monastic, member of an order, bound to the Liturgy of the Hours, may never leave monastery to do ministry

Mother Teresa = sister = active, member of an apostolic society, not bound to the Liturgy of the Hours, may never live in a monastery, but must always work among the laity performing works of charity.

Both nuns and sisters are called to the perfection of charity by different paths.

The Church considers the calling to be a nun, monk or friar “deeper” calling to live the Gospel than all other calls, because they make solemn vows and they are more intimately consecrated to God than other people as they are more segregated from the world than other people.

Hope this helps.

JR

 

[JReducation]

I hope that I didn’t express myself incorrectly. When speaking about the Dark Night of the Soul or other aspects of the mystical life, I do not mean that these exalted experiences of God are reserved for the learned. These experiences have been had by people from many walks of life. What they have in common is their intense prayer life and their love of God. These experiences are not their doing, but the work of Grace. They are completely from God. There is nothing that the person can do to make them happen. In fact, those that make such things happen to them are not contemplatives. They usually have some kind of psychological condition.

As to understanding what these experiences mean and their content or what happens to the soul this is quite another story. It is true that Scripture tells us that God reveals to the simple what he hides from the mighty. However, it is also true that the Church reserves the right to be the sole interpreter of these experiences and to accept only her authoritative interpretation. She deputizes only scholars to do this work. St. Bonaventure once wrote an explanation for this policy. He said that simple people often receive the grace of insight into these things, but that this was not a common occurrence. Therefore, we have to make use of scholarly disciplines to acquire our insight into these Divine events. God has given us the tools to do so; therefore we should. That’s where philosophy, theology, liturgy, scripture, history, language, and the arts enter into the equation. These are the tools.

Regarding the recording of these experiences, most mystics have written about them only because they were ordered to do so by the Church, especially by confessors, religious superiors or bishops. These persons saw that there was something very special in these individuals and that some day this would come in handy. They also realized that these experiences shed light on revealed truths and wanted to capture that light from the original source, the person who had the experience. These recordings come to us in many forms: diaries, letters, books and even prayers written by the mystics.

The Church has been very conservative in encouraging people to read the writings of the mystics. This does not mean that they are prohibited. It simply means that the Church is always afraid that these writings will be misunderstood and lead people into difficult psychological situations. That is why Mystical Theology does not form part of the curriculum in seminaries. Anyone wishing to study Mystical Theology must study it as a separate theological degree. As a result, most priests do not understand the mystical life anymore than the average lay person. When they encounter someone whom they believe is having some kind of mystical experience, they will refer the person or the case to a Mystical Theologian. It can happen in one of two ways. Either they are referred to that person who will then become their spiritual director or the current spiritual director will continue to do the work, but in consultation with a Mystical Theologian. The Church wants to ensure that the occurrences are really from God and that the individual receives the best possible spiritual guidance.

Finally, there are levels to the mystical life. Not every mystic reaches the same levels, nor does everyone go through all the levels in the same sequence. Sometimes a person may skip one. For example, St. Francis of Assisi never went through a Dark Night of the Soul or a Dark Night of the Senses. Mystical theologians and his biographers believe that it was unnecessary for him to go through those experiences as he had reached perfection long before. Thus the only thing left for God to do for him was to transform his physical appearance into that of Christ. Therefore, two years prior to his death, Francis received the stigmata. He is the first known human being to have received the wounds of Christ. His had a particular quality that no one else’s has had. He had the five wounds: feet, side and hands. They bled constantly. They were in the exact place where Christ’s wounds had been. They had nails in them. St. Bonaventure describes them as similar to bone fragments that pierced the skin and came out on the other side with a hook, from reading Bonaventure’s description the shape sounds like that of a fishing hook so that it pricked Francis each time he moved, causing him great pain.

As you can see, the Trinity uses the soul at its discretion so that the journey is very similar for all, but not identical. There are different emphases in the life of different souls.

This being said, this level of contemplative life is not for us to desire or work towards. If it is in God’s will for us, it will happen. What pertains to us is to seek to live according to the will of God by living the Gospel perfectly. This is what made Francis of Assisi the model for all saints. The Church proclaimed that he had achieved the perfection of the Gospel and thus was the perfect imitation of Christ and the Mirror of Perfection. The journey of the soul depends on how deeply we embrace the life of Christ as it is played out in the Gospel and how deeply we embrace Christ’s Church. For the true contemplative, the Gospel and the Church are inseparable.

The Dark Night of the Soul is the Trinity’s gift. It is the moment (in God’s time) when God stretches the faith of the soul by stripping it of all consolations and all mode of communication, expect total trust and surrender. That’s where the saying comes that a mystic is quiet. We’re not speaking about a literal silence, but an inability to use human language or human feelings to communicate with God, because he has experienced God outside of the realm of human abilities. He can only communicate with God by being just as the Trinity simply is.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Joysong]

JR:

I hope that I didn’t express myself incorrectly. When speaking about the Dark Night of the Soul or other aspects of the mystical life, I do not mean that these exalted experiences of God are reserved for the learned.

So far, so good …

As to understanding what these experiences mean and their content or what happens to the soul this is quite another story. It is true that Scripture tells us that God reveals to the simple what he hides from the mighty. However, it is also true that the Church reserves the right to be the sole interpreter of these experiences and to accept only her authoritative interpretation. She deputizes only scholars to do this work.

St. Bonaventure once wrote an explanation for this policy. He said that simple people often receive the grace of insight into these things, but that this was not a common occurrence. Therefore, we have to make use of scholarly disciplines to acquire our insight into these Divine events. [Nonsense!] God has given us the tools to do so; therefore we should. That’s where philosophy, theology, liturgy, scripture, history, language, and the arts enter into the equation. These are the tools.

Here’s where we differ, JR. You seem persistent in reiterating that only scholars have the capability of interpreting a person’s mystical experiences, and the person himself . . .

• is incapable, unless they have possess the tools: “philosophy, theology, liturgy, scripture, history, language, and the arts,”
• is “far too simple to receive the grace of insight into these things,”
• is subject to the Church’s fear that these writings will be misunderstood and lead people into difficult psychological situations,
• is not to desire or work towards this level of contemplative life.

JR, your book learning leaves me scratching my head in disbelief with respect to all of these bulleted points. You may indeed state your scholarly opinion and cite your credentials to induce me to accept this as truth, but I cannot agree in any way with what you are presenting here. Nor will I debate it further, for I anticipate that it will not have a good outcome. And you may likely judge that I am a poor misguided rebellious soul who won’t listen to you. It makes little difference what you may believe of me, but I am intensely concerned for others who are reading your thesis.

 

[beckycmarie]

Joysong, I think St. Paul would agree with you.

*For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside.” Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith.

Consider your own calling, brothers. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might boast before God.

It is due to him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Whoever boasts, should boast in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:19-31)*

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Thank you to you both for fascinating posts.
I have quite a few questions and comments. Although in the quick read that I have done of all three posts, I have more questions than comments. I have transferred both Posts into a Word Document and will nut out my questions and comments and Post into this thread. Mind you my comments are always up for friendly challenge of any kind always and no problems with me in that in any way…unless the challenges do not stay on the level of my comments and descent to the personal aiming for ‘below the belt’ - then I start to burn with ego hurting indignation …LOL!
I am now officially on term break and in the very best of moods with an early Spring warm sunny day…when grey and overcast and/or rainy and/or cold days my Bipolar condition gets decidedly restless and starts to try to drag me down. My condition reacts to changes in weather, changes in light, changes in the seasons, full moons, term breaks, exams and tests, being wrong and making mistakes which is an offence against my infallibility - some of those almost a feature of the Bipolar condition generally, others peculiar to my own brand of Bipolar…useless information for yer in my good current mood. I have endless and heaps of excellent useless information and I am, I can assure, a renowned fully quallified expert in the field, if anyone needs such information.

Blessings and my regards and thank you both again…Barb

 

[7_Sorrows]

i went back to the OP and it seems like you all hijacked the thread from her post or dismissed her because she wasn’t referring to the dark night of the soul in an intellectual way.

frankly, i found all of your posts very boring.

hopefully, she found some help somewhere.

 

[wildleafblower]

Language has a certain poverty. Certainly with the mystics they are in difficult terrain speaking about their experiences in language…since these experiences are confined to mystics and we do not all have the mystic experience to relate to as we read what the mystics had to say. The language of the mystics is always preceded by an understanding, taken as a for granted, meaning"something like this".

For example, if I say “tree” we all have the experience of a tree to relate to of what a tree is like. If I had never seen a tree, I would have no idea what the person was talking about, perhaps a vague understanding if a tree is then described to me. Not so with the language that mystics use other than a vague understanding as they describe their experiences. As you say, “at best, it is a simile.”
[snip]
Understanding about spirituality is like travelling to an unknown place with a map.

Hello BarbaraTherese

I was just reading a message of JOHN PAUL II which uplifted my spirit as my soul took flight! I wanted to share it. I melted with awe as I felt grand love when I read what St Mary Magdalene de’ Pazzi said as noted in red. It is simple yet so profound! The sound of truth in a dark night that has many prisms of light.

The Carmelite mystic, St Mary Magdalene de’ Pazzi, transported by her love for the divine Bridegroom, called upon the souls of consecrated men and women to love Love, a Love unloved: “O souls, created of love and for love, why do you not love Love?”; and she implored Love: “O Love, who are not loved or known. Love, make all creatures love you, O Love” (PR 2, 188-189).

This love, this burning ardour for Christ and for souls, this unquenchable thirst for divine love and this desire to take it to all men and women must constantly nourish your effort for personal conversion, holiness and evangelization.

1. All of you, consecrated men and women, are called to follow Christ more closely and to have his very sentiments in your hearts (cf. Phil 2: 5), to learn from him, meek and humble of heart (cf. Mt 11: 29), to do the Father’s will with him (cf. Jn 6: 38) and to follow him on the way of the Cross.

For the disciple, this is the only path. There is no other. Every day, with a joyful and grateful spirit, he or she must set out on the narrow road in the Teacher’s footsteps, in order to draw the needed energy from the source from which flows the water of life that never dies.

You must open your hearts to the life-giving breath of the Holy Spirit, to compete with one another in fraternal love and service, to open your doors to the weakest, the loneliest and the rejected. In this dawn of the Third Christian Millennium, the witness of your chaste, poor and obedient life will thus become a transparency of the loving face of Christ. (1)

I Jesus. I think the Holy Spirit is always present filling those gaps within us with a calming, sweat peace if only for a brief moment in time. I have to admit that I do like to stretch out time. tee hee

Reminds me of . . .

809 The Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the soul, as it were, of the Mystical Body, the source of its life, of its unity in diversity, and of the riches of its gifts and charisms.

810 “Hence the universal Church is seen to be ‘a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit’” (LG 4 citing St. Cyprian, De Dom. orat 23: PL 4, 553). (2)
(Charisms is mentioned on that link. Hi JR. Peace be with you and all.

1. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/pont_messages/2004/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20041126_consecrated-life_en.html
   http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...f_jp-ii_mes_20041126_consecrated-life_en.html
2. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm#809
   http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm#809
   

I’m not sure if I’m depressed or if this is one of those “dark night of the soul” things. It might be a little of both because I’m going through a rough time in my life right now. In either case, I’m having a really hard time praying lately. It’s even more difficult when things get really bad/sad and I know I have to pray even harder. It’s like no matter how hard I try to concentrate on my rosaries they feel like empty words like nobody is listening. Any tips on how to jump-start myself out of this? It’s really very frustrating. Help…

Hi Eli4n4 Maybe what I wrote above might help a little. I’m praying for you . Try to have a happy thought. Bless you.

 

[mullenpm]

JR, I have lived a very long life as a Catholic and NEVER (that I am aware of) knew the distinction between a Nun and a Sister.

Thank you so much. Just goes to prove - if you live long enough you will learn all (well, maybe not all).

 

[BarbaraTherese]

i went back to the OP and it seems like you all hijacked the thread from her post or dismissed her because she wasn’t referring to the dark night of the soul in an intellectual way.

frankly, i found all of your posts very boring.

hopefully, she found some help somewhere.

Hi 7S and thank you for the comments. I PM’d Eli, the OP, yesterday and have received a reply - and I have PM’d back - as I too was concerned (and had been for a while) that the thread had been hijacked completely and that I was a one of the prime hijackers. You can always PM Eli, OP, with your concern. I am quite sure that many find the comments re the theology of the Dark Night and other matters connected to the subjects raised that are indeed a hijack of the thread totally and absolutely a bore…and I bet all CAF members from time to time do experience a subject totally boring, and a completely normal human reaction sometimes a frequent one as life unfolds. Can’t please em all, but it sure feels good to please a few.

Unity in Diversity and Diversity in Unity.

Room for all on this ere ship! We are a motley crew in The Church and we were from the very start, and God willing will continue to be so.
“All aboard please!”

I think a thread that is completely off topic can be reported to the moderator as against CAF rules, I am unsure on this point. Be that as it may, my own personal opinion is that a thread should be allowed to have some movement and leeway as to subjects under discussion. But this thread, and you are quite correct 7S has been completely and totally hijacked. Eli’s subject was not at all the Dark Night per se … rather personal spiritual problems and difficulties. As I said, we have exchanged PM’s on this subject.

To Carole and JR and any others interested - I am wondering if we should indeed start another thread on the hijack subjects? We can always refer back to relevant posts in this thread.

Thank you for the nudge, 7S!..Blessings and my regards…Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi WLB:wave: …You may like to whizz off a PM to Eli, I am sure it would be appreciated - kindness and thoughtfulness in difficulty is always I think appreciated. I have not as yet checked out your links, but have made a note to do so. Thank you!

Your quotation above and especially the red text from Mary Magdalene de’ Pazzi, were beautiful.

Love is our unity, well ideally, in The Church and diverse are our understandings and concepts and other matters too. And I think it was one of our recent Popes that has said: Unity in Diversity and Diversity in Unity.
There is another important saying from St. Augustine “In Essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love”

What on earth can I do in the face of my many failures in love?

1. 
   *]I can acknowledge my failure honestly to myself at least
   *]I confess it with true sorrow and certainly if perchance a mortal failure and if not, I confess my heartfelt sorrow to The Lord
   *]What then?
   *]I simply begin again as if I have never failed in love in the first place, asking with the simplicity of total and absolute trustful. without reservations, confidence in The Lord for His Help in all things and especially in my battles with my many failures
   *]And I continue to hold close that the Confessional is one of the best source of Graces for strenth for the future.
   *]Is failure and sorrow to be my daily grind for the rest of my life?
   *]No, with God’s help and guidance in all things, it will be my daily priviledge for the rest of my life
   First Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians
   

   Charity is to be preferred before all gifts.

   1

   If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity,** I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.** 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never falleth away:
   
   whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known. 13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

   
   The quotation below are mportant words from JP2 also - and thank you very much for sharing them. Do you have link for the whole text? While the text appears to be addressed to religious, the religious life is meant (in part) to be a witness to the whole Church of fraternal love and Charity in daily operation - hence the message is for us all.Thank you very much for sharing some beautiful reflections!!!
   

   For the disciple, this is the only path. There is no other. Every day, with** a joyful and grateful spirit**, he or she must set out on the narrow road in the Teacher’s footsteps, in order to draw the needed energy from the source from which flows the water of life that never dies.
   
   You must open your hearts to the life-giving breath of the Holy Spirit, to compete with one another in fraternal love and service, to open your doors to the weakest, the loneliest and the rejected. In this dawn of the Third Christian Millennium, the witness of your chaste, poor and obedient life will thus become a transparency of the loving face of Christ. (1)

 

[Joysong]

7 Sorrows:

i went back to the OP and it seems like you all hijacked the thread from her post or dismissed her because she wasn’t referring to the dark night of the soul in an intellectual way.

In fairness to those whom you find boring, and whom you believe hijacked the thread, read this post from BarbaraTherese:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4205839&postcount=96
I am wondering if you received in this thread at least in its early stages the help that was indeed helpful to you, or whether you are still struggling with how to deal with your state?

If you are still having difficulties, do let us know and I am sure posters will address the matter for you hoping to be of some assistance, or you could send me a private message.

You will notice that the OP did not respond and has apparently abandoned the thread, even though a search revealed that the OP has been on line after Barb asked for his/her feedback. Further evidence of Barb’s charity, she sent a PM when no response was issued.

When there is no longer active participation by an OP, it is not rude or unseemly that those who have been conversing in that person’s absence must follow the original topic.

 

[7_Sorrows]

well, i can see why she abandoned the thread, she was referring to a different dark night of the soul perhaps.

the average person who has not studied mystical spirituality hasn’t a clue to what you all are talking about.

you have been too busy to try to impress each other with your knowledge and quotes and ideas than to care about the OP. barbara therese made one attempt, but by that time theOP was long gone.

maybe you should start a new thread for smart people only because obviously that is the message you are sending to people who post on here who haven’t been instructed to your way of thinking as to what a dark night of the soul is.

 

[Joysong]

I understand your sniping, 7 Sorrows, for it appears you are strongly related to Deborahaz. Very telling similarity about the timing, identical forum thread interests, written formatting, etc.

 

[beckycmarie]

I understand your sniping, 7 Sorrows, for it appears you are strongly related to Deborahaz. Very telling similarity about the timing, identical forum thread interests, written formatting, etc.

I’m glad you understand it because once again I am just perplexed by some of the most bizarre forum behavior I’ve seen in a while. As a moderator in a forum elsewhere, I thought I’d seen everything. . .

There are quite a few threads that I don’t understand (the “Filioque” one comes to mind - I have NO idea what that is all about), but I don’t pop into them and announce that the discussion is boring because I don’t understand it, and then proceed to antagonize the posters who know what they are talking about.

I am not well versed in all the ins and outs of contemplation and the writings of Sts. John of the Cross and St. Teresa, but I enjoy reading these threads as they are an opportunity to learn from some who have actual experience, and not just book understanding of the topic.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

JR and Joysong…I am still working on the reply to JR’s long post and your reply, Carole. Hope to post something today - 8.48am here Saturday 27September.

I thought there were some good comments in some posts after my last Post (the time zone difference can be annoying to me).

If anyone is concerned about Eli, please send a PM. Of course the exchange of PM’s between Eli and I are personal and I can’t comment other than as I have and some have arrived at completely incorrect conclusions, more than once.

7Sorrows

you have been too busy to try to impress each other with your knowledge and quotes and ideas than to care about the OP. barbara therese made one attempt, but by that time theOP was long gone.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion:thumbsup: Thank you for sharing it.

7Sorrows

you have been too busy to try to impress each other with your knowledge and quotes and ideas than to care about the OP. barbara therese made one attempt, but by that time theOP was long gone.

And I have exchanged a couple of emails with Eli, the OP and there is no way to know if others have not done this also. Again if anyone is concerned, a PM would be the way to travel.

**Joysong **

When there is no longer active participation by an OP, it is not rude or unseemly that those who have been conversing in that person’s absence must follow the original topic.

Thanks Carole…as the thread unfolded I wondered if the fact we were right off topic was an infringement of CAF rules, but then the thread seemed to be flowing quite freely without moderator intervention and I was more than happy to flow along with the thread,quite interested in the subject(s) unfolding. I am no “walking rule” if you have caught up with a couple of my posts into other threads? For those that don’t insight the term. Walking Rules in convents or monasteries were those who with great rigidity stick to the Rule.

Thanks all…I hope to get back to you JR and Carole with my comments today as I am very interested in being corrected if necessary…but moreso interested in affirmations …affirmations not only warms and flatters the ego,http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_33.gif they indicate that perhaps I am on the right track. No positive without a corresponding negative and the reverse, if one looks for it.

Blessings and and my regards…Barb

&pp=ZN

 

[Joysong]

Hi Becky,

Your kindness is very comforting. All I can think is, “they know not what they do.”

I am not well versed in all the ins and outs of contemplation and the writings of Sts. John of the Cross and St. Teresa, but I enjoy reading these threads as they are an opportunity to learn from some who have actual experience, and not just book understanding of the topic.

Since the scholarly approach seems to be somewhat of a contentious point of difference in this thread, I am deeply edified that you see the importance of experience. May I share with you some of St. Teresa’s cautions for the benefit of you who are following this thread?

Way of Perfection V.3
You already know that the cornerstone must be a good conscience and that with all your strength you must strive to free yourselves even from venial sins and seek what is the most perfect. It will seem to you that any confessor knows this, but that is misleading. It happened to me that I spoke about matters of conscience with a confessor who had gone through a whole course of theology, and he did me a great deal of harm by telling me that some matters didn’t amount to anything. I know that he didn’t intend to misinform me and had no reason to, but
he simply didn’t know any more. And the same thing happened to me with two or three others.

So much for book learning, without a shred of experience. The one who was finally able to put her mind to rest was one who had actual experience, ["]St. Peter of Alcantara]("http://www.catholicfirst.com/TheFaith/CatholicClassics/StTeresa/life/teresaofavila8.cfm#CHAPTER XXX[/url).

In due course that servant of God – the widow of whom I have spoken and who was a friend of mine – learned that this great man was here. She knew of my necessities, for she was a witness of my afflictions and used to afford me great consolation, her faith being so strong that she could not but believe that what most people said was of the devil was really the work of the Spirit of God; and, as she is a person of very great intelligence and is also most discreet and was receiving many favours from the Lord in prayer, His Majesty was pleased to enlighten her upon matters of which learned men were ignorant.

Almost from the beginning, I saw that, out of his own experience, he understood me. And that was all I needed; for I did not understand myself then as I do now, and I could not describe what I was experiencing. Since that time God has granted me the ability to understand and describe the favours which His Majesty sends me. But just then I needed someone who had gone through it all himself, for such a person alone could understand me and interpret my experiences. He enlightened me wonderfully about them.

This holy man enlightened me about the whole matter, explained it all to me and told me not to be distressed but to praise God and be quite certain that it was the work of the Spirit; with the exception of the Faith, he said, there could be nothing truer, and nothing in which I could more confidently believe.

Much more could be said, but I think coming from this holy Saint and Doctor says it quite well. History has proven that her experiences, as well as those of St. Peter Alcantara, were true, and they perfectly understood each other, as did St. Teresa’s widowed friend.

God bless you,
Carole