Dark Night of the Soul?

[JReducation]

that is st. john’s interpretation then.

i would not be so arrogant as to tell someone what they were experiencing was NOT a dark night of the soul.

St. John’s teaching on the Dark Night of the Soul has become part of the Mystical Theoogy of the Church. It really is not a show of arrogance. It is a theological truth that John wrote and the Church approved.

When a Mystical Theologian examines the soul of his directee it is his/her job to identify what is happening in the soul. It is his/her job to tell the directee whether it is or is not a Dark Night of the Soul. That’s the mission that the Church gives to Mystical Theologians, Spiritual Directors and Retreat Masters.

It’s not arrogance, it is ministry. I’m not sure if this helps. It’s like going to a physician who gives you a diagnosis. The diagnosis can be wrong. We know this. But the physician has an obligation to give you one, in any case. If you are not sure or if you want a confirmation, you look for a second opinion.

A spiritual guide who is trained in Mystical Theology is a physician of the sould. The guide has to make a diagnosis. The diagnosis can be wrong. The guide is not infalible. But the diagnosis is part of his ministry.

Sometimes the directee and sometimes the guide will seek out a second opinion. The Church reserves the right to tell its faithful what is happening in their souls, through spiritual guides who are authorized by the Church to function as such.

I hope this helps.

JR

 

[anon52328184]

thanks for further explanation.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Father Raniero Cantalamessa (Papal Preacher) has a rather different ‘take’ on The Dark Night, speaking of The Dark Night of Mother Teresa of Calcutta…and it makes thought provoking reading. You will need to scroll down on this link chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/164985?eng=y

to

** Mother Teresa, “the night” accepted as a gift**
by Raniero Cantalamessa

…to read the actual homily by Father Cantalamessa…I did try to locate it on Zenit where his homilies are regularly published - but I am too inexperienced in computers to use the Zenit Search facility.

 

[anon52328184]

thanks barbaratherese.

i have so much respect for mother theresa. i read a short biography of her and she had a fairly nice childhood although she lost her father at a young age and i am sure that loss was hard on her.

her devotion to becoming a nun and committing her life to Jesus and her charities is so commendable.

her life was all about sacrifice and helping others and trying to make life a little better for the unfortunate in india.

if she would have written that she never had a dark night of the soul, i would have found her untruthful.

she was honest and she felt the suffering of those around her.

i hope i get a chance to read the book someday.

thanks for the link.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Deborahaz…I find this most insightful:

if she would have written that she never had a dark night of the soul, i would have found her untruthful.

and especially in light of this:

she was honest and she felt the suffering of those around her.

To feel with intense empathy the sufferings of others is a particularly deep suffering, I think, and probably more intense than one’s own sufferings. St. Teresa of Avila wrote something worth noting that the surest and safest way to Union is through love of neighbour and Mother Teresa was blessed with this in abundance! St. Teresa of Avila was well aware since it proliferated almost in the convents of her time amongst nuns - and that was the potential danger in extraordinary phenomena in the mystical. Not that extra ordinary phenomena (observable) is intrinsic to mysticism per se. Apparently in convents in the time of St. Teresa there was an intense hunger for the unusual and observable which St. Teresa observed made one too open to either self deceptions or those of Satan, which were rather frequent in her time.
I was reading a book some time back that stated St. Teresa became a bit confused as a person shared with her exactly the same experiences as she had…and yet this person was not growing in virtue. Hence St. Teresa concluded and rightly, no growth in virtue, no authentic and true experience, no matter ‘how it sounds’. Down to earth practical common sense contributing to knowledge and wisdom, understanding and Gifts of The Holy Spirit!..St. Albert who wrote the original Rule of Carmel would have smiled upon her! He wrote that “common sense is the guide of all the virtues”.

Barb
Edit : By “observable” I not only mean sighted by others, but those ‘experiences’ one can dissect as it were and explain even if not sighted by others. I use “observable” in a very wide sense.

 

[anon52328184]

yes, and she was surrounded by this suffering day in and day out for many years. this was her life, her service. as far as i am concerned, she is truly a respresentative of a modern day saint and i find her life very inspirational.

the people who worked with her and the people she served were truly blessed to have known her.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

yes, and she was surrounded by this suffering day in and day out for many years. this was her life, her service. as far as i am concerned, she is truly a respresentative of a modern day saint and i find her life very inspirational.

the people who worked with her and the people she served were truly blessed to have known her.

…Amen!..And we are priviledged too I think to be able to have lived at the same time as a saint lived and to be as familiar with her as we are. Many times she was televised…and often in the media headlines. I am very grateful that St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Faustina and Mother Teresa were “saints of our times”…and didn’t they all crop up totally unexpectedly each with their own particular message needed by our times.
Each had their own particular (unique to them) Dark Night of The Soul…and yet those elements which St. John states are indications of an actual The Dark Night were present in all three…the ‘dress’ worn is the same only the colour and pattern are different as it were.

Barb

.

 

[anon52328184]

yes, i agree with all that you have said. however, i only wish i had paid more attention to mother theresa while she was alive. i knew of her, but i wasn’t catholic during her lifetime, so i missed out on a lot.

a few weekends ago on EWTN they had a one hour documentary about her.
it was soooooo interesting and that is why i wanted to learn more about her.

i remember that she died around the same time as princess diana. so i was wrapped up in the news about princess diana and her funeral and i didn’t follow the death and funeral of mother theresa. the documentary showed how people from all over the world came to pay tribute to mother theresa and she received so many awards in india and other countries for her work.

and there was a lot of unrest in india while she lived there. and today the christians are being persecuted in india. she would be very sad about that.

she was buried at the motherhouse. i love that name - motherhouse.
it sounds so nurturing.

she was a true saint and a true “mother” to the suffering.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

deborahaz

yes, i agree with all that you have said. however, i only wish i had paid more attention to mother theresa while she was alive. i knew of her, but i wasn’t catholic during her lifetime, so i missed out on a lot.

I am sorry that you missed this part of her life - but I think probably the whole truth about Mother Teresa will only unfold now after her death. During life, she seemed larger than life and in many ways she was, but she was also very human and a holy human as her letters are revealing.

a few weekends ago on EWTN they had a one hour documentary about her.
it was soooooo interesting and that is why i wanted to learn more about her.

A truly fascinating Catholic woman and nun who will go down in human history I am sure.

i remember that she died around the same time as princess diana. so i was wrapped up in the news about princess diana and her funeral and i didn’t follow the death and funeral of mother theresa. the documentary showed how people from all over the world came to pay tribute to mother theresa and she received so many awards in india and other countries for her work.

Who woud have guessed, huh, of all she was going through interiorly?

and there was a lot of unrest in india while she lived there. and today the christians are being persecuted in india. she would be very sad about that.

She would be very sad indeed about the divisions in religions that are causing problems.

she was buried at the motherhouse. i love that name - motherhouse.
it sounds so nurturing.

“Motherhouse” is usually given to the main convent where Mother General resides, and often (well it used to be) where novices are trained. There are also often “motherhouses” in the different provinces of an Order where Mother Provincial resides and again, novices are trained.
In the main the great motherhouses of religious orders are a thing of the past with not the abundance of novices there once was nor the overall membership. This is not to say of course, that they will not arise once again in the future. Who would have thought that we would have had the mass exodus from the priesthood and religious life that we did have and the rapid decline in vocations. This tells me to always expect the unexpected!

she was a true saint and a true “mother” to the suffering.

Undoubtedly Mother Teresa’s prime focus was not herself but others and their sufferings and her concern for them. I think perhaps the only time she focused on herself was in her letters. Focusing on others of course is a known method of deflecting from self and especially if one is going through a difficult time. The temptation with difficult times is to focus on oneself…she certainly never did this in her own sufferings.

Barb

 

[anon52328184]

barbara therese, all that you wrote about mother theresa was beautiful and true.

thanks for the extra information on the motherhouse.

yes, i think it is very sad that so many have left the religious life. it would be so wonderful if we could have many new priests and nuns want to commit themselves to the life in the Church.

i was born in 1952, and i can barely remember how the hospitals were run by nuns. and the habits they wore. there was something so comforting in seeing them in our communities. our culture became such a secular culture in the 70’s and 80’s. in the 90’s people began coming back to church, but we definitely need a revivial of sort.

the dark forces have been at work, trying to take away from us all that has been good for us. people do not realize how easy it is to fall to temptation and when you have almost an entire generation, like in the mid-60’s to mid-70’s, well, it is hard to correct the damage.

i chose theresa of avila as my confirmation name. i heard though that mother theresa actually chose therese of france, but someone else already had that name so she had to choose theresa. i want to always remember that small woman and how much she accomplished in her lifetime. what a beautiful story!!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

yes, i think it is very sad that so many have left the religious life. it would be so wonderful if we could have many new priests and nuns want to commit themselves to the life in the Church.

I think religious life has changed a lot here in Australia. We just never see habited nuns any more…or very very rarely. Things look much more hopeful in the USA. Also nuns pre Vatican2 really lived ascetically and most frugally and most habits were mended…and if a nun passed away and her habits were in reasonable condition, it was passed on. Also in convents and monasteries pre V2 there was none of this New Age stuff, the spirituality was all along the lines of our ancient spirituality…and while this did need some updating, here in Australia and in a very big way, the ‘baby has been chucked out with the bathwater’. Obedience too pre VAtican2 was quite strict…there was no discussion prior to the decision by a superior - well not as much as there is nowadays for sure. Pre V2 discussion took place to ensure one’s superior was fully informed, not to help them make the decision as now.
To my mind, nuns were nuns pre V2, here nowadays in Australia I think in the main religious sisters anyway are more career women in The Church.

i was born in 1952, and i can barely remember how the hospitals were run by nuns. and the habits they wore. there was something so comforting in seeing them in our communities. our culture became such a secular culture in the 70’s and 80’s. in the 90’s people began coming back to church, but we definitely need a revivial of sort.

Here in Australia sadly, I think very much the laity and the main and even our priesthood and religious tend towards the new agey type of stuff. I can still tell a nun a mile off. Once it was by their habit…but in reality here they are still in habit except it is matronly type often expensive clothing and with a very very short haircut, almost masculine in nature. I am hardly ever wrong…I see one sometimes in the distance and think “nun” and as she comes closer, sure enough there is the Order’s cross pin on her shoulder.

the dark forces have been at work, trying to take away from us all that has been good for us. people do not realize how easy it is to fall to temptation and when you have almost an entire generation, like in the mid-60’s to mid-70’s, well, it is hard to correct the damage.

But corrected it will be in The Lord’s time and in His way.

i chose theresa of avila as my confirmation name. i heard though that mother theresa actually chose therese of france, but someone else already had that name so she had to choose theresa. i want to always remember that small woman and how much she accomplished in her lifetime. what a beautiful story

All three Teresa’s were great women. St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux and Mother Teresa in our own times. Each rose to sanctity with a particular type of spirituality … different gifts, same Body.

 

[anon52328184]

i concur with what you said 100%.

now, it is the middle of the night where i am so i am off to get some sleep.

it was fun “chatting” with someone else who has a deep admiration for mother theresa.

 

[Joysong]

Deborahaz:

dave, apology accepted and i am sorry for being a little too hasty in my accusations. may i ask what is a secular carmelite?

i think there can be varying degrees of dark nights of the soul. to start pointing fingers at someone and saying well, you really aren’t having a dark night of the soul, it is something else, doesn’t make sense to me. i think we need to be kinder and gentler. everyone’s circumstances in life are different.

Interpretation: Apology accepted, but please don’t confuse me with the facts, because I prefer to keep my own opinion, even though it is not in accord with the teaching and understanding of Church.

sometimes things seem more hopeless in the middle of the night and you really search for God and pray. think of how many years that Mother Theresa was in India. don’t you think sometimes in the middle of the night she didn’t wonder why she was still seeing so much poverty and suffering in that country?

Again, you obviously did not read the link BarbaraTherese furnished and which clearly explained that Mother Teresa’s mystical suffering of the “Dark Night” was far more than the simple definition you prefer to hold; i.e., witnessing the daily poverty and suffering in India. If this was a true concept, many non-mystics and non-christians could thereby be in the dark night, simply through their altruistic suffering. This is not the definition commonly understood by the Church, and you have wrongly misunderstood with regard to Mother Teresa and other great saints who were gifted by God to suffer this. For a more penetrating appreciation and insight, I would recommend reading the book on Mother Teresa, “Come Be My Light.”

I believe you owe Dave an apology. He spoke the truth.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The classic Dark Night of The Soul has definite criteria or signs that it is transpiring…this is most universally agreed by reputable scholars and as to what these signs are, I think. They are drawn from the writings of St. John of The Cross. It is held that St. John and indeed St. Teresa of Avila wrote from their own personal experiences, and did not draw on previous reputable spiritual authors of their times for inspiration. Although the term “Dark Night” long predates St. John of The Cross.

The term “Dark Night” has of course also slipped into our everyday vocabulary to describe any prolonged period of suffering, difficulty or confusion and hence is not only a strictly defined classification in mystical and spiritual theology, but also a term in common poetic type usage. Be that as it may in Catholic understanding in the main anyway “Dark Night” is a point of mystical and spiritual theology with a strict defintion in theology. I think probably not too many ordinary Catholics would understand the strict definition, nor what it is nor that it is a point of theology.

This document makes interesting reading too…it is very lengthy indeed but worth the read and especially for me since it is very easily understood and is entirely comprehensive…and by a reputable author.

Introduction to Father Aumann (Dominican) and Contents of his work "Spiritual Theology"

domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/default.htm#contents

In Spiritual Theology Father Jordan Aumann dispels the common misconception that ascetical and mystical theology is for the select few. He reminds us that “the real purpose of the study of the spiritual life is not to produce scholars but to form holy Christians.”
Basing much of his work on St. Thomas Aquinas, St. John of the Cross, and St. Teresa, Father Aumann proves that Christian perfection consists especially in charity, a charity richly rewarded in spiritual graces.

He presents the most complete and systematic treatment of spiritual theology since Vatican II. Comprehensive in scope, it meets the needs of seminarians, professors of spiritual theology, spiritual directors, and retreat masters. This classic will also appeal to the educated reader seeking a richer and fuller spiritual life.

JORDAN AUMANN, O.P. is a native of the United States and Director of the Institute of Spirituality at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome. He is also a Consultor for the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy and Catechetics and likewise a Consultor for the Sacred Congregation for Evangelization. Since 1977 he has been giving special courses in spirituality at the Faculty of Theology of the University of Santo Tomas, Manila, where he is an honorary professor. He has likewise travelled extensively throughout the Philippines to give retreats to the clergy, and retreats and special series of lectures to religious and seminarians. Father Aumann has also written the book History of Spirituality published in the Philippines by St. Paul Publications.

domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st08.htm#pp

The Dark Night and criteria or signs of:

The principal source of suffering in this night is an apparent abandonment by God. The soul is deprived of all delight and satisfaction in relations with God. It is closed in upon itself, faced with its own misery and lowliness; God appears as a ruthless and avenging judge. The soul desires more than ever to serve God but feels that it can in no way be acceptable to God. Although actually in a high state of perfection, it feels desolate rather than favored by God. It would welcome death as a release from its torture.

But the soul that passes through this night comes forth from this trial resplendent and beautiful, completely transformed in God, and free forever from its weaknesses, imperfections, and miseries. Having been completely purified of them by the terrible mystical purgatory it has suffered, it scales the heights of sanctity, is confirmed in grace, and awaits only death to break the bonds that still hold it in this world in order to penetrate the eternal splendors of the beatific vision:

Is the night of the spirit necessary in order to reach Christian perfection? In order to attain the relative perfection that corresponds to the souls that have passed through the fifth and are entering upon the sixth mansions described by St. Teresa (contemplative prayer of quiet and of union), the dark night of the spirit is not necessary. God can supply and has, in fact, supplied for the purifications of the night of the spirit by means of other intermittent trials, alternating light with darkness, until he raises the soul to the degree of purity and perfection to which he has predestined it.

 

[Joysong]

BarbaraTherese:

The term “Dark Night” has of course also slipped into our everyday vocabulary to describe any prolonged period of suffering, difficulty or confusion and hence is not only a strictly defined classification in mystical and spiritual theology, but also a term in common poetic type usage. Be that as it may in Catholic understanding in the main anyway “Dark Night” is a point of mystical and spiritual theology with a strict defintion in theology. I think probably not too many ordinary Catholics would understand the strict definition, nor what it is nor that it is a point of theology.

Your comment is very true, Barb, but doesn’t it cause a curious wondering as to where the “common poetic type usage” originated? I really doubt that St. John borrowed his wording from common usage when he wrote his book, but rather, that common *mis-*usage of the terminology was borrowed from St. John and, sadly, misapplied to prolonged physical or mental sufferings endured by man.

Thank you for adding these other links which should prove helpful if folks take time to read them with an open mind. This is a very difficult concept to understand, and we have had several threads on this, but there are always newcomers who have little background on the real meaning as understood in Catholic theology. It is a cause of concern that the true definition is sometimes discarded in favor of holding to one’s private interpretation.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Joysong

Your comment is very true, Barb, but doesn’t it cause a curious wondering as to where the “common poetic type usage” originated? I really doubt that St. John borrowed his wording from common usage when he wrote his book, but rather, that common MISusage of the terminology was borrowed from St. John and, sadly, misapplied to prolonged physical or mental sufferings endured by man.

I believe that the poetry of St. John is held in very high regard of long standing in educated English and other cultures sources as poetry and is quite extensively read in those circles - I perhaps this is how the term “dark night” has slipped into common usage? St. John’s poetry is very well known in certain circles universally and regarded as “classical poetry”. And of course it then becomes the pebble in the pool effect. Not hard at all to start a fashion or an ‘in vogue’

Thank you for adding these other links which should prove helpful if folks take time to read them with an open mind. This is a very difficult concept to understand, and we have had several threads on this, but there are always newcomers who have little background on the real meaning as understood in Catholic theology. It is a cause of concern that the true definition is sometimes discarded in favor of holding to one’s private interpretation.

Never know who reads these threads, huh…and the good or sadly the opposite that can be effected. What we write nad post here is for life being the internet, although often I write and not conscious of this - rather just like writing to a friend! I do think that if someone wants to present “Dark Night” and the understanding of it as a point of Catholic spiritual theology…then the right understanding in our theology needs to be presented. Anything else would be inaccurate and false, misleading. Actually I very much suspect that even the term “mystical and spiritual theology” would not be really understood (working type knowledge) in the main by Catholics. This is very sad.

Cacha on the rounds, Carole…my regards and may The Lord continue to bless you always…Barb

 

[Roza]

In my times not having returned to Catholicism yet but out of the NAM… I’d call this time in my life some heavy duty pruning. Yeah, it’s hurting but you know, I know it’s a good thing. Doesn’t look good or feel good to me right now but prayerfully will bear better fruit down the road.

 

[InLight247]

I really doubt that St. John borrowed his wording from common usage when he wrote his book, but rather, that common mis-usage of the terminology was borrowed from St. John and, sadly, misapplied to prolonged physical or mental sufferings endured by man.

That happens more than often.

This is a very difficult concept to understand, and we have had several threads on this, but there are always newcomers who have little background on the real meaning as understood in Catholic theology. It is a cause of concern that the true definition is sometimes discarded in favor of holding to one’s private interpretation.

By reading CAF threads, I can really see common human natures.
We are easy to jump to conclusions, like to hold on our original opinions, and we can work harder in seeking the truth.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

That happens more than often.

By reading CAF threads, I can really see common human natures.
We are easy to jump to conclusions, like to hold on our original opinions, and we can work harder in seeking the truth.

Hi InLight…the term “dark night” does predate St. John, (one of the early Church Fathers used this term but I cannot recall who)however prior to the writings of St. John it was not in common usage - St. John gave it ‘fame’ in The Church through his writings…and in secular society probably through his poetry which is very well known in certain secular circles still.

easy to jump to conclusions, like to hold on our original opinions, and we can work harder in seeking the truth

I see you have been reading my Profile!

 

[Joysong]

Prologue of Dark Night of the Soul:

Stanzas Of The Soul

  1. One dark night,

fired with love’s urgent longings

• ah, the sheer grace! -
  I went out unseen,
  my house being now all stilled.
  

   2. In darkness, and secure,

by the secret ladder, disguised,

• ah, the sheer grace! -
  in darkness and concealment,
  my house being now all stilled.

The first two stanzas describe the effects of the two kinds of spiritual purgation that take place in a person: one, a purification of the sensory part; the other, a purification of the spiritual part. The remaining six stanzas speak of some of the marvelous results obtained from spiritual illumination and union with God through love.
catholictreasury.info/books/dark_night/dn1.php

Barb,

When you mentioned that St. John wrote in poetry, it seemed good to quote the stanzas he wrote and later described in detail. Many of our mystics have derived their own terminology to describe the indescribable. Because both Teresa and John are Doctors of the Church for having experienced the indescribable, we need to honor their words, yet realize their descriptions do not have the full force of language. At best, it is a simile.

I will be sharing some of these ‘similes’ in the thread on recollection; for example, where Osuna, and afterwards St. Teresa spoke about the hedgehog to describe, again, the indescribable.

Haven’t we also seen the confusion that results from misunderstanding the single word “contemplation?” Yes, terminology can be misleading and difficult, but I think its best we put our trust in those whom the Church upholds as Doctors, and pray that God will enlighten us through their works.