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josie_L
Guest
You’d have to get passed your disbelief in God before you can tackle this question.
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B
buffalo
Guest
Revelation
W
WillieWonka
Guest
Neither will you.
W
WillieWonka
Guest
Like the revelation in the Upanishads or Quran?
B
buffalo
Guest
True Revelation.
W
WillieWonka
Guest
How do we know which book is true revelation?
L
liquidpele
Guest
Wow. How arrogant and conceited. I’m constantly offended by people claiming I’ve never had revelations as an atheist. I was Christian once… my revelation was to finally admit to myself that I was forcing myself to believe things that I couldn’t accept in my heart and mind. Why is my revelation of truth any different than yours? Because you believe your interpretation of a 2000 year old book or what you’ve been taught by other people is more correct? The notion of the “True” way is just pure arrogance unless you personally heard it from God himself. As I’m about as sure as I can be that you have not, perhaps you should take yourself down a notch.
S
Shredderbeam
Guest
I was pointing out that his argument invokes a sort of relativism, where everything is personal and subjective, and there is no objective truth. This is probably not a position that many Christians would want to endorse.
I think that WillieWonka answered this for me:
Although this may be a discussion for another thread, as it is somewhat off-topic.
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buffalo
Guest
Won’t happen. The Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth. And the “book” is more than 2000 years old.
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WillieWonka
Guest
That’s really old. Almost as old as the Veda.
B
buffalo
Guest
Back to you wille. You would agree that different religions with opposing views cannot all be right.
So how does one go about figuring out which one is correct?
Which one’s can we rule out from the get go and why?
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WillieWonka
Guest
I have no idea.
B
buffalo
Guest
Well no wonder you are so confused. Break it down man.
W
WillieWonka
Guest
I’m not confused. I just asked how one identifies true revelation. How do you do it? Faced with Veda, Quran, and Bible, how do you know which is true revelation.
S
shoewindow3000
Guest
You remind me of Pontius Pilate:
When Jesus said, “I am Truth,” Pilate asked, " What is truth"?
S
shoewindow3000
Guest
You want proof of Christianity. I suppose that if I were to give you writings from the Apostles themselves, it would not be good enough. Well, here is some stuff to consider:
Look at the situation. When Christ preached, it wasn’t only to a few people in the middle of nowhere. He would go into towns and cities, where there were *many *people of all ages, from all over the place. Word spread about this man who could, “heal the sick, and spoke about God in a new way.” Multitudes of people would come to him, carrying their sick friends and relatives, or just to hear Him talk.
Most of the books in the New Testament were written around 25-35 years after Christ, meaning that the tens of thousands of people who had seen this Man perform miracles and preach were still alive. Many people who themselves were healed were still alive. Remember, it was only a couple decades later.
Next, consider the apostles and the other 502 people who had seen Christ after the Resurrection. (This number is according to Paul. He wrote this at a time when, according to his epistle, some were “asleep,” but most were still alive.)
Use some common sense: Why would the Apostles suffer the remaining decades of their lives in persecution and eventually give them up as martyrs for something that was a lie?
Instead of* speculating* all day about this or that, just say the obvious- they wouldn’t!
Now look at Paul. He was a Pharisee, a very learned man…and he was anti-Christian. He was infamous for persecuting Christians. Well, he had his famous conversion experience around the year AD 33. One day, while on the road to Damascus (on the way to arrest Christians) with two partners, the three of them were engulfed by a bright light. Jesus Christ had appeared to them. Christ told Paul to go to Jerusalem to the church. There, he met Peter and James. (As a matter of fact, when he told the Christians that he now believed in Christ, they afraid and thought that he was tricking them.) He was baptized, and went on to spend the rest of his life traveling with the apostles and preaching the gospel, eventually dying as a martyr.
This man, who had this life-changing conversion and personally* knew* and traveled with the Apostles, wrote many letters, some of which we have today in the New Testament. In them, he talks about his conversion.
For example, take Galatians, Chapter 1:
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they praised God because of me."
*
(this letter is accepted as authentic by virtually all historians, along with the Epistles of Romans, First Corinthians, Second Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, First Thessalonians, and* Philemon*- the rest have been disputed among scholars)
(To quote from) Papias on the Gospel of Mark in Hist. Eccl. iii. 39 as follows:
"And the presbyter said this. Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord’s sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care,* not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements.**" This is what is related by Papias regarding Mark.*
Irenaeus wrote (Against Heresies 3.1.1): *“After their departure [of Peter and Paul from earth], Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.”
*
This is by no means the only evidence (and I am by no means a historian), but when it boils down to it, the only question is whether or not you think the Apostles (and the several hundred other disciples who claimed to have seen Jesus after the Resurrection) were lying or not, if they gave their lives for a lie that they made up.
Look at the situation. When Christ preached, it wasn’t only to a few people in the middle of nowhere. He would go into towns and cities, where there were *many *people of all ages, from all over the place. Word spread about this man who could, “heal the sick, and spoke about God in a new way.” Multitudes of people would come to him, carrying their sick friends and relatives, or just to hear Him talk.
Most of the books in the New Testament were written around 25-35 years after Christ, meaning that the tens of thousands of people who had seen this Man perform miracles and preach were still alive. Many people who themselves were healed were still alive. Remember, it was only a couple decades later.
Next, consider the apostles and the other 502 people who had seen Christ after the Resurrection. (This number is according to Paul. He wrote this at a time when, according to his epistle, some were “asleep,” but most were still alive.)
Use some common sense: Why would the Apostles suffer the remaining decades of their lives in persecution and eventually give them up as martyrs for something that was a lie?
Instead of* speculating* all day about this or that, just say the obvious- they wouldn’t!
Now look at Paul. He was a Pharisee, a very learned man…and he was anti-Christian. He was infamous for persecuting Christians. Well, he had his famous conversion experience around the year AD 33. One day, while on the road to Damascus (on the way to arrest Christians) with two partners, the three of them were engulfed by a bright light. Jesus Christ had appeared to them. Christ told Paul to go to Jerusalem to the church. There, he met Peter and James. (As a matter of fact, when he told the Christians that he now believed in Christ, they afraid and thought that he was tricking them.) He was baptized, and went on to spend the rest of his life traveling with the apostles and preaching the gospel, eventually dying as a martyr.
This man, who had this life-changing conversion and personally* knew* and traveled with the Apostles, wrote many letters, some of which we have today in the New Testament. In them, he talks about his conversion.
For example, take Galatians, Chapter 1:
Code:
* "I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they praised God because of me."
*
(this letter is accepted as authentic by virtually all historians, along with the Epistles of Romans, First Corinthians, Second Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, First Thessalonians, and* Philemon*- the rest have been disputed among scholars)
I know it isn’t technically “proof,” but it makes a good point. (It would be like Osama bin Laden all of a sudden saying he was sorry and wanting to become an American citizen.)
Look at the Gospels (I won’t go into all of them, just Mark). Mark is the earliest written of the four, written around 65 AD…and it was written by a disciple of Peter.(To quote from) Papias on the Gospel of Mark in Hist. Eccl. iii. 39 as follows:
"And the presbyter said this. Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord’s sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care,* not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements.**" This is what is related by Papias regarding Mark.*
Irenaeus wrote (Against Heresies 3.1.1): *“After their departure [of Peter and Paul from earth], Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.”
*
This is by no means the only evidence (and I am by no means a historian), but when it boils down to it, the only question is whether or not you think the Apostles (and the several hundred other disciples who claimed to have seen Jesus after the Resurrection) were lying or not, if they gave their lives for a lie that they made up.
W
WillieWonka
Guest
OK. When presented with Vedas, Quran, and Bible, how would Pilate’s method determine which is true revelation?
W
WillieWonka
Guest
I haven’t asked for proof of Christianity. That would entail proving Jesus was God, which is a more difficult task. I’ve asked how one determines which is true revelation when presented with Vedas, Quran, and Bible. I think I’ll add Buddhist Sutras, too.
We should note their are numerous stories of Indian holy men travelling the country, attracting may people of all ages, and performing miracles.
Mohamed did pretty well with those crowds, too.
We should note their are numerous stories of Indian holy men travelling the country, attracting may people of all ages, and performing miracles.
Mohamed did pretty well with those crowds, too.
S
Shredderbeam
Guest
What was the average lifespan during that time, for that region?
True, people tend not to martyr themselves for something they know to be false - but throughout history, how many examples are there of people dying for something they believe to be true?
S
StAnastasia
Guest
I suspect you are wong. Do you have any evidence that Da Vinci taught evolution or that Galileo was burnt?
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