Darwin's Theory of Evolution is not scientific

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Mighty circular.
Wha…?

No way have I read that right. It’s not possible that you can mean what you just said.

r: A is defined as X, Y and Z.
B: Oh really. And I suppose that therefore X, Y and Z just therefore HAPPEN to be the definition of A. How convenient…

How is it possible to have a sensible argument with someone who thinks a definition is a circular argument.
 
C) A change in the DNA of an interbreeding population over time.

Your A) includes a lot more than evolution, for example ageing causes organisms to change over time and sex determination causes organisms to differ from half of its ancestors.
Regarding your exceptions to A): Ageing is not descending. Sex difference applied to sexual reproduction would not be a difference from ancestors. Sex difference applied to parthenogenesis would only occur in a male descendant. I do not believe we have any evidence of such an event.

Regarding your revised C) would you clarify DNA changes which characterize evolution as all or only some of these mutations. If not all, please specify which apply.
 
Maybe we can do that.
You claim to know where Adam’s skeleton is. You are the one who wants to show evidence for a non-standard position. The rest is up to you.
What does evolution predict his DNA would look like?
Adam’s DNA would be standard human DNA with nothing particularly special about it. It would not be “perfect” of contain a lot more variation than standard human DNA.
What does ID predict his DNA would look like? As compared to ours. If it is pristine will you concede?
If it is significantly different, then he might or might not have been human. Only if the DNA was capable of having fertile offspring with a standard human would he be considered human. Inability to interbreed is an indicator that two organisms belong to a different species.

If your Adam is too different then he is no longer human, but some other species.

You need to get a carbon date first, to confirm that it is possible to be Adam’s remains. Then you need the DNA sequence so we can check it.

Unless and until you have obtained the evidence then I remain sceptical.

rossum
 
Sex difference applied to sexual reproduction would not be a difference from ancestors.
So all your ancestors were the same sex as you are? Only half of my ancestors were the same sex as me.
Regarding your revised C) would you clarify DNA changes which characterize evolution as all or only some of these mutations.
Any and all variations in DNA count as evolution. The definition C) only requires “change”, it does not specify the type of change.

How come you do not know this already if you are discussing evolution? You will make your case a lot better if you are up to speed on the subject you are talking about.

rossum
 
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rossum:
C) A change in the DNA of an interbreeding population over time.

Your A) includes a lot more than evolution, for example ageing causes organisms to change over time and sex determination causes organisms to differ from half of its ancestors.
Regarding your exceptions to A): Ageing is not descending. Sex difference applied to sexual reproduction would not be a difference from ancestors. Sex difference applied to parthenogenesis would only occur in a male descendant. I do not believe we have any evidence of such an event.

Regarding your revised C) would you clarify DNA changes which characterize evolution as all or only some of these mutations. If not all, please specify which apply.
Just looking up ‘Genetic disorders’ in wiki is hardly going to further any argument you might have (and you should quote your sources where applicable). If you want to know more, read the whole book (it’s not concerned with evolution). Although it’s pretty dense. So unless you have some background in genetics then…it may be above your pay grade. But here it is anyway.: Gene Editing, Epigenetic, Cloning and Therapy - Amin Elsersawi Ph.D. - Google Books
 
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Only half of my ancestors were the same sex as me.
Exactly one-half of your parents is the same sex as you. No difference.
Any and all variations in DNA count as evolution. The definition C) only requires “change”, it does not specify the type of change.
Then all these genetic disorders are an evolution of the human species?
DisorderChromosomeMutation
22q11.2 deletion syndrome22qD
Angelman syndrome15DCP
Canavan disease17p
Charcot–Marie–Tooth disease17
Color blindnessXP
Cri du chat5D
Cystic fibrosis7qP
Down syndrome21C
Duchenne muscular dystrophyXpD
Familial Hypercholesterolemia19P
Haemochromatosis6P
HaemophiliaXP
Klinefelter syndromeXC
Neurofibromatosis17q/22q/?
Phenylketonuria12qP
Polycystic kidney disease16 (PKD1) or 4 (PKD2)P
Prader–Willi syndrome15DCP
Sickle-cell disease11pP
Spinal muscular atrophy5qDP
Tay–Sachs disease15P
Turner syndromeXC
 
Those and others. Remember that many of them will be eliminated over time by natural selection, or in the case of Sickle Cell, replaced by the HbC mutation, which does not have the deleterious effects of HbS.

There are more deleterious mutations than beneficial ones. Over time, natural selection removes them from the gene pool while spreading more copies of the beneficial mutations. Why do you think you can surprise me with a list of deleterious mutations?

rossum
 
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There are more deleterious mutations than beneficial ones. Over time, natural selection removes them from the gene pool while spreading more copies of the beneficial mutations. Why do you think you can surprise me with a list of deleterious mutations?
Relax. We are only sharpening your proposed definition of “evolution”. Would you agree that all these genetic disorders are “evolution” under your definition?
 
Would you agree that all these genetic disorders are “evolution” under your definition?
I already answered that when I said “Those and others” earlier. There is little point in my answering your questions if you do not read my answers.

rossum
 
Hello Rosum,
… evidentiary junk-pile along…a mockery to real science…equivalent to the proof that can be mustered for a flat earth…
You know, it is customary in making an argument to present, …well…, an argument, and not just a list of derogatory terms for your opponent’s position.
 
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I already answered that when I said “Those and others” earlier. There is little point in my answering your questions if you do not read my answers.
Be patient with me; you are the expert. Are all mutations novel? If not, how do we know any particular mutation is novel and is that indicative of a new specie?
 
I’m afraid macroevolution is not neatly defined as identical to speciation even among evolutionists. For instance, the evolution loving fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia, notes that speciation can be considered either within the purview of micro or macroevolution:
“Macroevolution is evolution on a scale at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution, which refers to smaller evolutionary changes of allele frequencies within a species or population…The process of speciation may fall within the purview of either [“i.e. micro or macro evolution”], depending on the forces thought to drive it.” (Macroevolution - Wikipedia)

Of course in our particular discussion, defining speciation among Finches, for instance, as “macroevolution” can serve as a nice semantic “proof” of the evolutionary belief that fish macroevolved into rodent like creatures which macroevolved into ape like creatures which macroevolved into scientists.

I must concede that there is an irresistible chain of logic once this semantic battle over “macroevolution” is won. Since we have scientific evidence of macroevolution in the speciation among Finches–we have by logical necessity the proof before our eyes that rocks eventually developed via cosmic rays into conscious beings that write poetry (I know I’m throwing in abiogenesis here, but humor me).
 
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All kidding/sarcasm aside, and to avoid a semantic battle, when I–or any other wingnut like myself–uses the term “macroevolution” we are generally using it in a manner defined nicely by the following link I just came across:
What is the key distinction between speciation and macroevolution?
Jan 16, 2017
Answer:
The key distinction is the origin of new or novel information.

Explanation:
speciations results from the natural selection of preexisting variation within the DNA of an organism. Macroevolution requires the formation of new information.

An example of speciation would be the variation of Finches on the Galapagos Islands. A small population of one type of finch arrived on the volcanic islands where the finches faced a new environment with many unfilled niches. The finches evolved into 13 different types of finches occupying different niches. These different speciesof finches can and do hybridize interbreeding with each other. There is no new genetic information required for this type of speciation.

An example of macroevolution is the transition from flying reptiles to birds. Scales need to be changed into feathers, cold blooded metabolism to hot blooded metabolism. Radically different proteins and physical structures need to be produced. New and unique types of information need to be produced.

Darwinian evolution extrapolates from the observations of speciation to the theory of common descent and macroevolution.

Of course, I haven’t even touched on semantic variables relating to the term “speciation”–but that’s for another day. I’m off of this thread for real this time. Have a great weekend all.
 
Are all mutations novel?
No, overwhelmingly not. There are 7 billion people on earth, with an average of around 75 mutations each. Most mutations will appear more then once in the overall human population.
If not, how do we know any particular mutation is novel…
Being novel is not of any particular importance, and DNA sequencing the entire human population so as to find out is not practical.
… and is that indicative of a new specie?
A new species cannot breed with the old species, or does so at significantly reduced effectiveness. That has very little to do with whether a mutation is novel or not.

rossum
 
I’m afraid macroevolution is not neatly defined as identical to speciation even among evolutionists…
The argument over what constitutes macroevolution vs. microevolution in terms of definitions of these words per se is not nearly so important for our purposes as the argument over what kinds or degrees of evolution you claim do not exist. The scientific definitions that have been presented so far just say that these two things differ only in scale. But you are claiming something more fundamental - that one kind exists and the other kind does not. The use of convenient labels like “micro” and “macro” are not useful if we cannot agree on a common definition. Fortunately we do not have to arrive at any such agreement. All you have to do is define, in whatever scientific term you like, the smallest degree of evolution that you say cannot exist. This definition should not be composed of examples, such as “reptile to bird”, but rather should be general enough to exactly delineate this fundamental line which you see so that we will be able to take any example and easily decide, based on your definition, whether it is “too far” an evolutionary change or not. Would you care to have a go at it? The same challenge goes to @buffalo and others who are arguing against evolution in its full form.
 
For instance, the evolution loving fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia,
Wikipedia is not a scientific authority. Its references do generally refer to good scientific authorities, but in itself it is not an authority.
What is the key distinction between speciation and macroevolution?
Jan 16, 2017
Answer:
The key distinction is the origin of new or novel information.
This is incorrect. The appearance of blue eyes instead of the original brown in humans is new information, but is simply microevolution – variation within a species. New information may, or may not cause speciation.

You also need to specify how you are defining “information”. Do you use Shannon information, Kolmogorov information or some other ID-specific measure of information
An example of macroevolution is the transition from flying reptiles to birds. Scales need to be changed into feathers, cold blooded metabolism to hot blooded metabolism.
Pterosaurs (flying reptiles) died out with no living descendants. Birds are descended from non-flying dinosaurs, which developed feathers before they developed flight. Pterosaurs did not have feathers, their wings were skin, similar to modern bats. Some dinosaurs were warm blooded, and birds inherited that along with feathers from their non-flying ancestors. Your source is misinforming you here.

rossum
 
I agree that definitions are important–however, the fundamental issue for evolutionism is whether a rock can develop feelings by accident (not to mention opposable thumbs). If this can happen then the religiously held beliefs of evolutionists are true. If not, it’s something akin to belief in magical fairies that pay people for their teeth.
 
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I agree that definitions are important–however, the fundamental issue for evolutionism is whether a rock can develop feelings by accident (not to mention opposable thumbs). If this can happen then the religiously held beliefs of evolutionists are true. If not, it’s something akin to belief in magical fairies that pay people for their teeth.
So, you refuse to submit to an actual investigation of your claim by nailing down exactly what you are claiming.
 
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