Dating a divorced women with 2 kids

[bolsheviks]

Well as far as the money goes, I was actually in a brief relationship prior where I felt I might have been getting taken advantage of… so I’ve been very very careful with her. Despite making less than me and always driving out 30 mins to see, she always insists to pay for food etc and I just insist that I do. Lately I’ve insisted that I pay for her phone bill (about $90 a month) just as my way of taking some burden off her since her ex doesn’t help. Like I say I’m pretty confident that she’s not in this for money, I’ve put her through a lot of tests to that effect. When we went to a theme park she paid for everyone. She seems like the real deal in that way and that’s actually one of the reasons I’m so attracted to her - makes me feel like she’s a genuinely good person.

As far as why not date someone else… with my anxiety I’m probably just not the best social butterfly. I don’t feel like dates are easy to come by. Also, she’s got a lot going for her as a person. I think I’d have a hard time finding someone who’s got such an outpouring of love for me. In some of the women prior to this I had no hesitation breaking up with them because I could tell, despite being younger, they weren’t good people. So that’s really what makes it so difficult. The situation on it’s face feels completely unfair to me but my emotional side is really saying, “I can’t leave this person who’s been so good to me.” I’ve actually tried to breakup with her thinking it’s what I wanted after talking to a therapist and I can never follow through with it. It’s tough.

I’ve gone out and talked to other girls and it seems like there’s usually a stuckup attitude that she refreshingly doesn’t have, maybe just because I’m younger than her but whatever the case is, I do feel very loved and appreciated.

 

[Xantippe]

Well as far as the money goes, I was actually in a brief relationship prior where I felt I might have been getting taken advantage of… so I’ve been very very careful with her. Despite making less than me and always driving out 30 mins to see, she always insists to pay for food etc and I just insist that I do. Lately I’ve insisted that I pay for her phone bill (about $90 a month) just as my way of taking some burden off her since her ex doesn’t help.

**No, no, no, no, no!

I don’t think you should be dating this woman at all, but as a general matter of principle, if you were dating a single mother that was free to marry, I would say to go ahead and pay for date stuff all you like (as she probably often has childcare expenses in order to go out) but DO NOT pay for basic living expenses.

We don’t pay the basic living expenses of significant others that we are not married to, barring some sort of very unusual situation (a fiancee gets cancer, etc).

And, in general, we don’t give large gifts to people we aren’t at least engaged to.
**

Like I say I’m pretty confident that she’s not in this for money, I’ve put her through a lot of tests to that effect. When we went to a theme park she paid for everyone. She seems like the real deal in that way and that’s actually one of the reasons I’m so attracted to her - makes me feel like she’s a genuinely good person.

As far as why not date someone else… with my anxiety I’m probably just not the best social butterfly. I don’t feel like dates are easy to come by. Also, she’s got a lot going for her as a person. I think I’d have a hard time finding someone who’s got such an outpouring of love for me. In some of the women prior to this I had no hesitation breaking up with them because I could tell, despite being younger, they weren’t good people. So that’s really what makes it so difficult. The situation on it’s face feels completely unfair to me but my emotional side is really saying, “I can’t leave this person who’s been so good to me.”

**Yes, you can.

Love and marriage are not a prize for acquiring enough brownie points.
**

I’ve actually tried to breakup with her thinking it’s what I wanted after talking to a therapist and I can never follow through with it. It’s tough.

I’ve gone out and talked to other girls and it seems like there’s usually a stuckup attitude that she refreshingly doesn’t have, maybe just because I’m younger than her but whatever the case is, I do feel very loved and appreciated.

Maybe a slightly older woman (30ish?) might be less of a diva, but 1) this particular one is not free to marry at this point (and won’t for the next 2+ years at least) 2) you haven’t mentioned that she’s particularly devout and 3) you are very uncomfortable with the prospect of being in a blended family.

 

[AnnArbor]

Maybe a slightly older woman (30ish?) might be less of a diva, but 1) this particular one is not free to marry at this point (and won’t for the next 2+ years at least) 2) you haven’t mentioned that she’s particularly devout and 3) you are very uncomfortable with the prospect of being in a blended family.

Just curious, not that I disagree about the wisdom of pursuing this relationship, but why do you think she won’t be free to marry for more than 2 years?

 

[Xantippe]

Just curious, not that I disagree about the wisdom of pursuing this relationship, but why do you think she won’t be free to marry for more than 2 years?

Just being conservative with regard to length of annulment process.

 

[Xantippe]

On reflection, I think that the OP’s lady friend is not a gold-digger (and actually if anything, the opposite), but I do think that she has a lot of trouble with boundaries and with over-investing prematurely in relationships.

She seems like a really young 34, maturity wise.

Some therapy for her would probably be a very good thing, no matter what.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I am a 55 year old man who has seen many unhappy relationships, and if there is one thing I’ve learned from my own and other experiences, it is:

Don’t sleep with her! Don’t even indulge in touching and passionate kissing!! It will do your head in - you will “fall in love” and whatever brief happiness you find will be followed by confusion and dependency.

What’s more, don’t let the thought of sexual intimacy with her in any way affect your decisions.

(btw, I am only talking from two experiences of my own, and both were non-intercourse - the rest are many others I’ve heard of. When a good man sleeps with a woman, he is done for).

Sad but very true.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’ve read through all of the OP’s posts on this thread and I still cannot think of one single benefit of dating this woman.

Even if I’m being as charitable as possible and ignoring the very real possibility that this woman is a lying, manipulative, gold-digger, there are still way too many red flags.

Between her husband, her European boyfriend, the OP, and the guys that she’s meeting on these dating sites, she seems way too concerned with getting a man, and it seems that for her, absolutely anyone would do. Although I’m not necessarily against single parents dating, she hasn’t demonstrated that she’s trying to do so in a reasonable, responsible, clear-headed way that will protect her children from heartbreak and disappointment. (Hint: You shouldn’t have met them yet. And they definitely shouldn’t “love” you yet.)

And finally: You’re only 26 for goodness sake! You don’t need to be even entertaining the idea of taking on a single mom, her two kids, and dealing with ex husband drama. You need to be enjoying time with your friends, getting settled into a career, looking into graduate or professional school if you haven’t already and that’s a goal of yours, and just in general living life!

 

[Xantippe]

Between her husband, her European boyfriend, the OP, and the guys that she’s meeting on these dating sites, she seems way too concerned with getting a man, and it seems that for her, absolutely anyone would do. Although I’m not necessarily against single parents dating, she hasn’t demonstrated that she’s trying to do so in a reasonable, responsible, clear-headed way that will protect her children from heartbreak and disappointment. (Hint: You shouldn’t have met them yet. And they definitely shouldn’t “love” you yet.)

**Right. Mommy’s 26-year-old boyfriend does not need to be socializing with the kids until he’s really serious about mommy.
**

And finally: You’re only 26 for goodness sake! You don’t need to be even entertaining the idea of taking on a single mom, her two kids, and dealing with ex husband drama. You need to be enjoying time with your friends, getting settled into a career, looking into graduate or professional school if you haven’t already and that’s a goal of yours, and just in general living life!

Yes.

 

[PolarGuy]

I totally agree with everything BlueEyedLady said.

A few more ruminations:

1. OP, you say you’re being “very very careful” but…you’re not really being careful at all IMHO. You’ve allowed yourself to become emotionally invested in someone not free to marry, and who also – whether you want to admit it or not – basically committed marriage/immigration fraud. She has 2 kids who either a) you may be becoming invested in or b) they may be investing in you! You admit you are troubled by the child situation…yet you’ve gotten in it nonetheless! Heck, you’re now paying her phone bill. You’re not being careful; to the contrary, you’re digging a deep emotional hole for yourself (and maybe for others).
2. On that note, I’m sorry, call me cynical (and I am) but did you offer to pay the phone bill? If so, she should’ve said no. Did she ask? What will you do when her brakes go on her car? when the kids need braces? How about the same questions…but after she sighs and says how hard it is to be a single parent without help from ex, but you’re sooooo not like him are you? I’m sorry, but this woman seems to be rather “putting hooks into you,” or at minimum allowing you to have hooks put into yourself.
3. You keep saying how great/nice she is to you. But there is a difference between someone who’s nice to you, and who’s nice, period. I apologize, but I cannot get around her admission about the whole “immigration/marriage scam” thing. Does that describe the person you want to be with the rest of your life? Also – if she was willing to essentially marry under false pretenses – are you so 100% sure she’s not doing the same, with you?
4. And by the way…what’s with the whole “I have anxiety and all other women are stuck up” attitude? I’m not trying to be insulting, at all – I’m trying to make you see that, all else being equal, I think, candidly, that you’re kind of finding reasons to like, if not love, this woman, but I don’t think they’re good reasons. Being down on yourself does not equal her being the right person for you. I rather liked the poster who talked about the single women arranging their holy cards. Sorry but this woman sort of sounds like a woman with very different priorities than the holy card arrangers – but I think the holy card arrangers make better spouses, and I think the 34 YO has a lot more reasons to be interested in you (or to pretend same!) than the other way around. Sorry, just being honest, and I sincerely hope I haven’t come across as a jerk saying what I’ve said – that was not my intent.

 

[bolsheviks]

The feedback is much appreciated - don’t spare my feelings, above all else I’m here to help figure out what to do.

As far as her character goes… my therapist met her and said after doing so, he put to bed fears he’d been harboring. My parents and friends have met her and there’s been no red flags in that regard. The only manipulation that might go on is her subtly pressuring for a deeper commitment, i.e. engagement, BUT, I think that’s pretty normal. If she is a manipulator, I really think she’s a master (and I say this as someone who has been manipulated in the past). It has crossed my mind that maybe she’s just looking for a man and any man will do, but that’s more speculation than anything because of her situation. As I mentioned, she’s really only a nominal Catholic (and I hate to say it, but that’s actually a lot better than many of the single people out there…) so she’s making decisions largely from a secular mindset, though her kids are being raised religiously. In that regard, I’ve spoken to her and she would come to church with me on a regular basis and seems open to returning. I’m planning to ask her about the annulment soon and from what I can tell she wouldn’t have any objections - I’m also fairly sure she wasn’t married by a priest so it may not necessarily be considered valid to begin with.

I met her kids about 4 months in and she was extremely hesitant. We had already been spending almost all of our free time together and it seemed like a necessary step. I will agree, in hindsight, it was bad judgment. I was checking in with my therapist and parents and friends of course and I didn’t hear anyone voicing loud objections (my therapist actually married a woman with 2 kids about the same age). I know there’s a danger here of the kids forming a strong attachment to me and that’s something we’re both acutely aware of and I’m very careful to put some distance between them and me unless things are more concrete later.

Here’s why I hold on to her: We have chemistry, I feel like she’s an achiever and an incredibly strong woman, etc but the huge reason is I’ve never felt so much care. It’s really indistinguishable from a family member. Even in subtle ways, “promise me you’ll wear your seatbelt”, picking up a napkin to wipe food off my face (on our first date), offering to drive me to the airport, coming across town to visit me when I’m sick, insisting to pay for things despite barely being able to pay her bills, being extremely happy for no other reason than to see me. Believe me, she has guilt. It haunts her. She’s broken down crying several times telling me she wishes she made better decisions. Despite being “done” with kids and really not needing any more, she’s told me it’d make her happy to give me one if I wanted to (something we talked about for several months). Throughout this courtship there have been no games (so refreshing to me): always returns my texts/calls, always wants to see me, and didn’t try to hide her feelings. She might be the type of person who’s capable of being with someone just to serve her ends, but that’s not what this particular relationship is about, as far as I can tell. Like I say, there’s no shortage of older, more established men. She’s in the real estate industry and there’s a guy who owns a company who constantly asks her out and she always says I’m with my boyfriend, I can’t. I’m very scared of what happens if I breakup with her… it’d be a crapshoot trying to find that in someone else. That’s really why I can’t leave her. And then I can’t really commit because of all these overwhelming things, so I’m just kind of stuck.

And also I’ll add: I’m in the South, there’s not many Catholics. I volunteered for St Vincent Depaul society a few years ago and was the youngest one by a good 20 years. There are big mega churches that have thriving communities but it’s not really my scene.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s why I hold on to her: We have chemistry, I feel like she’s an achiever and an incredibly strong woman, etc but the huge reason is I’ve never felt so much care. It’s really indistinguishable from a family member. Even in subtle ways, “promise me you’ll wear your seatbelt”, picking up a napkin to wipe food off my face (on our first date), offering to drive me to the airport, coming across town to visit me when I’m sick, insisting to pay for things despite barely being able to pay her bills,

**Gaaaah! That last one is not OK.

She is a mother. She has two children she has almost total responsibility for. It is not acceptable for her to offer to pay for stuff that she cannot afford. If your style of entertaining is above her means, you need to bump it down to something that she can afford.

Sacrificing her children’s well-being for a man that she has dated for only six months is a huge red flag. And if she is paying for stuff she can’t afford, she is sacrificing her children for you.

Again, that is not OK.

You may think it is all endearing and romantic, but I think it’s dysfunctional and immature.
**

being extremely happy for no other reason than to see me. Believe me, she has guilt. It haunts her. She’s broken down crying several times telling me she wishes she made better decisions. Despite being “done” with kids and really not needing any more, she’s told me it’d make her happy to give me one if I wanted to (something we talked about for several months). Throughout this courtship there have been no games (so refreshing to me): always returns my texts/calls, always wants to see me, and didn’t try to hide her feelings. She might be the type of person who’s capable of being with someone just to serve her ends, but that’s not what this particular relationship is about, as far as I can tell. Like I say, there’s no shortage of older, more established men. She’s in the real estate industry and there’s a guy who owns a company who constantly asks her out and she always says I’m with my boyfriend, I can’t.

Then she’ll be FINE without you.

I’m very scared of what happens if I breakup with her… it’d be a crapshoot trying to find that in someone else.

Why do you want that?

That’s really why I can’t leave her. And then I can’t really commit because of all these overwhelming things, so I’m just kind of stuck.

**Do not waste this woman’s time. You have all the time in the world–she doesn’t.

“I don’t think I can find another woman” is not a good reason to grab the first warm female person that is halfway nice to you.
**

And also I’ll add: I’m in the South, there’s not many Catholics. I volunteered for St Vincent Depaul society a few years ago and was the youngest one by a good 20 years. There are big mega churches that have thriving communities but it’s not really my scene.

I would expect that St. Vincent de Paul skews pretty old.

I think you might do better if you work on relocating to a bigger city or a college town, if you aren’t already in one. I live in a huge Baptist area in the south, but it’s also a college town, and there’s a vibrant Catholic community.

Good luck!

 

[LongingSoul]

Have your parents and family met her? What do they think of your relationship?

 

[PolarGuy]

OP, the more you write, the more I think this whole thing is a bad idea. A really bad idea.

Now you write that you “can’t leave her.” That mindset is totally inconsistent with any relationship, no matter how otherwise mature the parties are, let alone this one. It bespeaks a whole set of “issues” with you which will make a relationship with anyone difficult if not impossible. A man who decides he can’t leave is a man who is about to get used.

For that matter, I mean this with all charity: you are writing a lot about your therapist. I don’t know why you either need one or think you do, but your being in therapy in and of itself bespeaks some issues you may have.

Finally, here’s what I also notice: people are writing about red flags and you are rather ignoring those and continuing to gush about how wonderful she is to you. Please be mindful of our comments. I can only say this so much: this woman admits she committed immigration fraud. Seriously: how do you feel about that?

 

[pianistclare]

Sad but very true.

YES. YES.
If the OP is involved ins sexual relationship, this could be why he’s so :undecided…confused…wondering…

This woman appears to be unavailable. If the OP is concerned about her, he will not continue to lead her in sin.

The money thing is causing a form of dependency. It’ sonly going to get more difficult.
I really don’t see it getting better.
The immigration thing is also a nightmare.
It’s not a simple as people assume, believe me.
Simply marrying an American doesn’t remove all the costs, paperwork, forms , and legal drama you incur. Even in the happiest marriage, which doesn’t seem to be on the horizon.

One of the posters said that she should not have brought someone into her children’s lives so early. This is very important. There are two other little souls here. How confused they must be. This is very unfortunate.

 

[PolarGuy]

I also found the girlfriend’s statement, to the effect that she’d have a child for OP if he wanted it, very troubling. At best she’s immature to even voice that thought. A worse possibility is that she’s manipulative. At worst - and I mean worst - she’d actually do this, i.e., have a baby to hook a man. That’s just plain scary but it happens.

 

[Edmundus1581]

My feeling is that people here have been harsh on the whole “immigration fraud” angle. It is simply the way of the world that women in poor countries seek to make a better life for themself by marrying into wealthy countries. If we were rule out of dating the sort of woman who would do that, then it probably cuts the pool by 50% (or 90%?).

I mean, let’s start crossing off potential dates by their failures: She likes sexy pop music. Out. She wants to “cuddle” all the time. Out. She eats too much cake. Out. She lives on facebook. Out. She dresses inappropriately. Out. She’s too pious. Out. She rejects Novus Ordo. Out. She lets her mother think for her. Out…

If you are waiting for the perfect spouse, you’ll keep waiting.

If there’s a “red flag” on the relationship, then make sure it’s a biggie, and is current. Not something quite natural which happened once, ten years ago.

Overall, I am very impressed with the way this woman stuck in the marriage for the sake of the kids, and only left because she was being both mum and dad (ie. providing), and I am impressed with the way she has gone about her life since.

 

[PolarGuy]

Edmundus, I think a lot of your posts are spot on, but I’m sorry, I think the last one was way off. “Eating too much cake” or “using Facebook a lot” is 1000 percent different than “I got into a sham marriage to get to the United States, but had 2 kids and OP should believe that despite a sham marriage and lying to Immigration authorities I’m actually a sweet woman.” Seriously, you think those things are comparable? I really really disagree.

 

[pianistclare]

My feeling is that people here have been harsh on the whole “immigration fraud” angle. It is simply the way of the world that women in poor countries seek to make a better life for themself by marrying into wealthy countries. If we were rule out of dating the sort of woman who would do that, then it probably cuts the pool by 50%.

I mean, let’s start crossing off potential dates by their failures: She likes sexy pop music. Out. She wants to “cuddle” all the time. Out. She eats too much cake. Out. She lives on facebook. Out. She dresses inappropriately. Out. She’s too pious. Out. She rejects Novus Ordo. Out. She lets her mother think for her. Out…

If you are waiting for the perfect spouse, you’ll keep waiting.

If there’s a “red flag” on the relationship, then make sure it’s a biggie, and is current. Not something quite natural which happened once, ten years ago.

Overall, I am very impressed with the way this woman stuck in the marriage for the sake of the kids, and only left because she was being both mum and dad (ie. providing), and I am impressed with the way she has gone about her life since.

**
She eats too much cake**??? Oh well… forget her!

Seriously, there’s plenty of red flags…She’s willing to have a baby for you, but rejects certain Catholic practices. Uh=huh. Sounds like a real prize.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My feeling is that people here have been harsh on the whole “immigration fraud” angle. It is simply the way of the world that women in poor countries seek to make a better life for themself by marrying into wealthy countries. If we were rule out of dating the sort of woman who would do that, then it probably cuts the pool by 50%.

I mean, let’s start crossing off potential dates by their failures: She likes sexy pop music. Out. She wants to “cuddle” all the time. Out. She eats too much cake. Out. She lives on facebook. Out. She dresses inappropriately. Out. She’s too pious. Out. She rejects Novus Ordo. Out. She lets her mother think for her. Out…

If you are waiting for the perfect spouse, you’ll keep waiting.

If there’s a “red flag” on the relationship, then make sure it’s a biggie, and is current. Not something quite natural which happened once, ten years ago.

Overall, I am very impressed with the way this woman stuck in the marriage for the sake of the kids, and only left because she was being both mum and dad (ie. providing), and I am impressed with the way she has gone about her life since.

Hmmmm Human smuggling on par with too much cake? Perhaps you do not have a handle on the immigration issue. There are legal ways to enter the USA. It isn’t like it is New Zealand or anything…

 

[bolsheviks]

OP, the more you write, the more I think this whole thing is a bad idea. A really bad idea.

Now you write that you “can’t leave her.” That mindset is totally inconsistent with any relationship, no matter how otherwise mature the parties are, let alone this one. It bespeaks a whole set of “issues” with you which will make a relationship with anyone difficult if not impossible. A man who decides he can’t leave is a man who is about to get used.

For that matter, I mean this with all charity: you are writing a lot about your therapist. I don’t know why you either need one or think you do, but your being in therapy in and of itself bespeaks some issues you may have.

Finally, here’s what I also notice: people are writing about red flags and you are rather ignoring those and continuing to gush about how wonderful she is to you. Please be mindful of our comments. I can only say this so much: this woman admits she committed immigration fraud. Seriously: how do you feel about that?

I’m not ignoring you, I’m definitely taking this in. I guess I’m stuck on the idea of “love conquers all” and the issues I might have with her will ultimately work themselves out but I won’t argue that when it comes to relationships I’m inexperienced and like I admit, have some anxiety / depression history so I don’t doubt that could be effecting things.

The immigration thing; I don’t find it troubling given her life circumstances. She didn’t come from a 1st world country; she came from a very poor background and really wanted a better life. How do you blame someone for that? I think it says she has poor judgment more than anything - marrying the guy she did but she was pressured to by her older sister who told her he’s so wonderful. It’s more pitiful to me than anything else.

My family’s met her and my mom loves her. My dad thinks she’s a good person but also thinks it’s a bad situation. And I don’t deny that at all; it’s the idea that I might like her more than I dislike her situation, and the idea that “this was meant to happen” and things are going to work out. I will say the “feel” of being around her kids is generally positive, it’s more the thought of all the potential drama and jealousy that bugs me.