Dating a married and divorced catholic

[CARose]

Thanks to you as well St.Bruno.

I belong to an extremely small parish, so I don’t have a specific young couple to mentor, and at this time my marriage is not the example of bliss I would desire. I appreciate your prayers and those of anyone else so disposed. I do certainly believe that it is through them that we have gotten this far.

Did you ever watch the TV show Joan of Arcadia? One episode showed how she did these various things in response to God’s request and we, the TV audience saw all these results that came from what she was doing, none of which came to her attention. It was a great example of how we really don’t ever know all that comes from what we do, prayer included. But we know that prayers are answered. We don’t always see the results, but God always hears our Prayers, and we also know he desires that all souls come to Him, so keep it up. In some way or another you’re reaping a fine harvest.

God Bless you in your efforts,

CARose

 

[Allen537]

ByzCath:

Someone who has gotten married is considered to be in a valid marriage until ruled otherwise.

This is true in the case of two non-catholics. That is why when a couple converts, they are not required to re-marry, their marriage is only blessed.

It is not true however for a catholic who gets married without permission. I do understand where you are coming from when you ask wether or not it is valid. The only other possible situation I can think of is a baptism. If a person is sprinkled with water, but the trinity is not invoked, It is not a valid baptism. We know this from church teaching. The same would be true for a marriage, without the permission of the bishop, the validity isn’t there.

Let me put it another way also, If a person fornicates, does he have to go to a priest to ask wether or not it was wrong? No, he knows because the church is very clear on it’s teaching. The same would be true for a marriage outside of the church.

I understand your desire to find out all of the circumstances surrounding the marriage, but I can’t think of anything short of a dispensation that would make the marriage legitiment. Maybe if the person was only born a catholic, and had not yet recieved the sacraments. Maybe you could offer some reasons why it would be legitiment?

 

[puzzleannie]

pilchard:

A Catholic was married to a protestant in a protestant church. . . .Question is - is it ok to court / date this person?

the Catholic Church presumes all marriages are valid until proven otherwise. Unless the previous marriage of someone you consider dating has been judged by the tribunal and a decree of nullity issued (or found invalid due to defect of form or other reason that does not require a complete annulment investigation), the guy is still married, so the answer would be no.

 

[jrabs]

ByzCath:

For one thing, I would be very wary before getting involved with anyone who has gotten a divorce, **annullment **or not.

Good thing all men do not have this narrow opinion. :nope:

I have an annulment and am sure I will find a great solid devout Catholic man to remarry.

 

[Allen537]

puzzleannie:

the Catholic Church presumes all marriages are valid until proven otherwise. Unless the previous marriage of someone you consider dating has been judged by the tribunal and a decree of nullity issued (or found invalid due to defect of form or other reason that does not require a complete annulment investigation), the guy is still married, so the answer would be no.

Are you saying that a Catholic can marry outside of the church, without the permission of the local bishop, and that that marriage would be valid until someone called them on it?! There is no “innocent until proven guilty” in the Catholic church.

 

[CARose]

Actually, from a pastoral perspective, the priest is to treat a marriage as valid until it is presented to him for consideration of being otherwise. He can instruct the couple on what it takes for a marriage to be valid and even suggest to them that they may have steps necessary to bring their marriage into conformity, but he does not have the authority to declare a marriage invalid.

This counts for both marriages that are currently existing and marriages that have ended.

An annullment is required. There is at least one priest who has published a book to the contrary, but this book has been condemned and it has resulted in several difficult marital situations that I am aware of, and I’m not even in the community where he had the greatest impact.

I think it is very important that we understand the need to submit any previous marriage to the Tribunal for determination of it’s status if we are hoping to have it annulled. And on the other hand, if a Catholic has been married outside the Church, he/she should take whatever steps necessary to have it blessed by the Church.

If you were to be aware that your own marriage were most likely not valid, it would be incumbant upon you to cease receiving the Eucharist until the situation were remedied. I do not believe that in most circumstances it would be pastorally correct for the priest to refuse Eucharist in such a circumstance, but it would be right for the couple themselves to cease receiving it unless they choose to live as brother and sister until the situation has been corrected and went to confession to acknowledge their sin.

CARose

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

jrabs:

ByzCath:

For one thing, I would be very wary before getting involved with anyone who has gotten a divorce, annullment

or not.

Good thing all men do not have this narrow opinion. :nope:

I have an annulment and am sure I will find a great solid devout Catholic man to remarry.

jrabs,
I think you need to go back and re-read what I said.

I did not say that I would not get involved, I said I would be very wary.

wary |?we(?)r?| adjective ( warier , wariest ) feeling or showing caution about possible dangers or problems : dogs that have been mistreated often remain very wary of strangers | a wary look. See note at vigilant .

But then I must add, as I have been accepted into formation of a religious order, I am not really looking for anyone.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Allen537:

Are you saying that a Catholic can marry outside of the church, without the permission of the local bishop, and that that marriage would be valid until someone called them on it?! There is no “innocent until proven guilty” in the Catholic church.

Actually there sort of is, just look at the requriments for a sin to be mortal. One must know it is a mortal sin for it to be so.

But you are partly correct, only in most cases it takes someone with the authority to say that a marriage is invalid and I am sorry but it is the Church that holds that authority, not us.

Now if the Church would require that this person get an annullment before they could get married (again) in the Catholic Church why do you think it is a good idea to get involved with that same person before they have an annullment?

 

[Allen537]

ByzCath:

Now if the Church would require that this person get an annullment before they could get married (again) in the Catholic Church why do you think it is a good idea to get involved with that same person before they have an annullment?

If the church required this person to obtain an annullment, then you would be right, it would be a very bad idea to date/court this person. But that would mean that the marriage would have to be valid in the first place, and from what I have read in the Code of Cannon Law, and the CCC, It isn’t possible with out that dispensation.

I agree on this point: the church is the only body with the authority to say wether or not a sacrament is valid. But I think that we as Catholics, wether we be seminarians, lay persons, or someone persuing a vocation to the religious life, we can “see the writing on the walls”, While we can’t officially rule one way or the other on this subject, we can be certain that if the bishop is given this same set of circumstances, he would without a doubt say that the marriage was invalid from the get-go.

I would like to take this chance to wish you the best of luck as you persue your vocation to the religious life. Be assured of my prayers for you and your vocation. Pax.

 

[Elizabeth2]

ByzCath:

Actually there sort of is, just look at the requriments for a sin to be mortal. One must know it is a mortal sin for it to be so.

But you are partly correct, only in most cases it takes someone with the authority to say that a marriage is invalid and I am sorry but it is the Church that holds that authority, not us.

Now if the Church would require that this person get an annullment before they could get married (again) in the Catholic Church why do you think it is a good idea to get involved with that same person before they have an annullment?

Just reading through old posts and came across this. If a Catholic didn’t know that it was wrong for a Catholic to get married in a non Catholic wedding it would still objectively be a mortal sin. We can’t judge their subjective guilt, that’s a matter for God and the priest in Confession. But in any case the marriage would still not be valid, whether the person knew it or not. But if the facts are correct, an annulment wouldn’t be necessary, just a declaration from the tribunal that the marriage was invalid. This would be easier to get than an annulment. But you are right. Let the person get this first before dating them. It’s much easier not to start a relationship than break it off once it has begun.

 

[Aesq]

Allen537:

If the church required this person to obtain an annullment, then you would be right, it would be a very bad idea to date/court this person.

The Church does require this person to obtain a nullity. Under the circumatances presented it appears a defective form petition can be used but it must still be filed and ruled upon. The Church persumes “all” marriages to be valid until proven otherwise in the context of remarriage. You have been blending the contexts a little by raising the issue of the parties to the marriage likely being in a state of mortal sin because of the invalidilty of the marriage. A nullity still must be sought and ruled upon before there can be a remarriage.

 

[900MHZ]

A Catholic was married to a protestant in a protestant church. Not 100 % sure but my guess is that the required permission and promises (to bring the children up in the faith ect…) to marry in a non catholic church were niether sought or granted (not 100 % sure - but for the sake of argument let’s assume this to be the case)

The catholic subsequently had children (now gwon up) and divorced.

Question is - is it ok to court / date this person?

My questions is, if a Catholic marries a Protestant, would that marriage even BE valid?? Meaning, this might be an easy one for the tribunal?

 

[quiet52]

The OP asked for advice about dating a divorced Catholic who was previously married in a Protestant church.

Here is my advice:

1. Be a friend. Divorced people frequently experience rejection in so many ways, subtly and blatantly, and they need Christian friends. Loneliness tends to lead to further isolation from God and from God-loving people.
2. Be a light of Jesus’ love for him/her. Perhaps God will work through you to help this person return to the Church.
3. Remember what your values are as a Catholic Christian and live them. Set your boundaries, and communicate them when appropriate.
4. Make it clear you’d like to be his/her friend, but that you’re not dating him/her. Make it clear you’re a practicing Catholic, and that your marriage plans would include active participation in the Church as a couple.
5. Invite him/her to attend mass with you.
6. If this person opens up to you about his/her desire to return to the church, rejoice and say yes! welcome back! see a priest for Reconciliation!
7. I think you can see where I’m going with this … you’re in my prayers.

And by the way, there is the longer process for a petition for nullity for Catholics married in the Catholic Church … and the usually shorter process for a petition for nullity for those not married in the Church. This person’s marriage in a Protestant church seems to fall under “lack of form” (and the short process) but it’s for the tribunal to decide…

 

[mesquite_magic]

Thanks…

“Fancy catching a film” is a typical openning gambit. “Fancy getting an annullment” mmhh - that could be interesting

Only kidding… Thanks again

Now there’s a great start! That was cute.

The marriage seems to have been invalid but only the Church can make the call.

Perhaps Catholic parents and relatives of people in this poition should - at the time the marriage ends in divorce - advise the person to seek an anullment as well - should perhaps make the delicate suggestion that sad as the divorce is - if it is going to happen why not seek reconciliation with the Church

God Bless

P

My personal opinion, if you’re going out as friends, then you don’t have to worry so much. Now if you think you might want to marry her one day, you might want to mention anullment.

Kim

 

[Liberanosamalo]

You can’t presume that just because a Catholic married a Protestant in a Protestant ceremony that it is an invalid marriage.

For a sacrament to be valid, it must have certain elements: proper form, proper matter, proper intent and a validly ordained celebrant, to name a few.

So for instance, in celebrating Mass, the priest must use proper form, the Canon of the Mass, not deviating and adding his own words. Proper matter would be bread and wine (not cake, or honey biscuits or grape juice or any of that nonsense), he must INTEND to transubstantiate. And he must be validly ordained and not be in a state of interdict, or schism, or any such thing.

Lacking any of this, it may LOOK like Mass, but it won’t be Mass.

Same with weddings. The bride and groom must have proper form. So if there is a wedding in a Protestant church, you can’t presume the couple didn’t get a dispensation from Canonical form before they were married. They must both be free to marry, without prior bonds of marriage or ordination. They must INTEND to be married permanently and exclusively and to have children. If any of this is lacking, there is no sacramental bond confected, even though the couple may say vows.

Only the Church can really say whether all of these elements were involved when a particular couple married. Even those sitting in the pew may not know that the Catholic girl marrying in the Baptist church may have in fact received the proper dispensations.

So we can’t say whether anyone is validly married or not, or if they just need a declaration that there was no dispensation given prior to the wedding ceremony.

I echo whomever said people should obtain a decree of nullity as quickly as possible in event of a divorce. Save a lot of heartache in the long run.