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Brendan
Guest
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Sunniva,Sunniva said:
So if the Pope decides to do so, he can “dissolve” rather than annull a protestant marriage (where one is unbaptized) if one of the married protestant couple has dated and fallen in love with a Catholic? Does Jesus commands that “two shall become one” and “let no man (even a pope) separate what God has joined” not apply in Petrine Privilege.?
Can a Catholic actively persue, date and end up marrying a protestant’s non-annulled wife? Does Jesus’ and the Father’s commandment against adultery not protect a person in a protestant marriage if one is not baptized? It sure looks like people in such a Protestant marriage would be fair game for Catholics to date in the eyes of the Church.
Petrine Privilege
(Favor of the Faith)
The implementation of this procedure is reserved to The Pope. It involves the circumstance where one of the parties in the marriage is unbaptized and the other is baptized. Either party wants to become Catholic or wants to marry a Catholic. This marriage can be dissolved, permitting the person to become Catholic or to marry a Catholic. Thus, the Pope may act in favor of the Christian faith. Another example may be that a Methodist lady who is married to an unbaptized man falls in love with a Catholic man. The Pope may dissolve the marriage of the Methodist to facilitate her marriage to the Catholic man This is done *in favor of the faith *of her Catholic fiancé.
Quoted from Petrine Privilege
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
**NAB MAT 19:3 **
****The Question of Divorce.
“Have you not read that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female and declared, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall become as one’? Thus they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore, let no man separate what God has joined.”[color=#00000] They said to him, “Then why did Moses command divorce and the promulgation of a divorce decree?” “Because of your stubbornness Moses let you divorce your wives,” he replied; “but at the beginning it was not that way. I now say to you, whoever divorces his wife (lewd conduct is a separate case) and marries another commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” [/color]
NAB MAT 19:16
“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied, "‘You shall not kill’; ‘You shall not commit adultery’…"
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Sunniva
Guest
Hi, Steven.Steven Merten said:
I’m in RCIA and certainly not an expert in these matters. I have been granted a Petrine Privilege because I was a baptised person married to a non-baptised person. This was as already mentioned considered to be a valid and natural marriage, not sacramental.
This link might help: http://lcdiocese.org/Annulments/determine.htm
Marriage matters are always very complicated. I think I will hand this over to someone who have more knowledge than me.
But I will comment on “Can a Catholic actively persue, date and end up marrying a protestant’s non-annulled wife?” Bolded by me.
Of course a Catholic can’t marry anybody’s (Protestant, Muslim, pagan, whatever) wife. The marriage must be declared null or in some cases like the Petrine- or Pauline Privilege be dissolved before they can marry.
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Catholic2003
Guest
A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. But mankind had marriage long before the time of Christ. So what does “instituted by Christ” mean for the Sacrament of Marriage?
What it means is that Christ elevated marriage between Christian spouses to the level of a Sacrament. This is why a valid marriage between two Christians is called sacramental; it imparts the grace of a sacrament. The valid marriage between two non-Christians, or between a Christian and a non-Christian, is good and natural, but not sacramental because it does not impart the grace of a sacrament.
When Jesus said, “let no man separate what God has joined together,” this is translated into Church law as “a valid sacramental marriage which has been consummated cannot be dissolved by any human power, including the Roman Pontiff, or by any cause other than death.”
A non-sacramental marriage can be dissolved by the Church. The Pauline privilege can be used in the case of a marriage between two non-Christians. The authority for the Pauline privilege comes from I Corinthians 7:12-15, and can be authorized by the local bishop. The Petrine privilege is used in the case of a marriage between a Christian and a non-Christian, and the authority for it derives from sacred Tradition, and can only be authorized by the Pope.
A sacramental marriage that has not been consumated can be dispensed by the Pope.
What it means is that Christ elevated marriage between Christian spouses to the level of a Sacrament. This is why a valid marriage between two Christians is called sacramental; it imparts the grace of a sacrament. The valid marriage between two non-Christians, or between a Christian and a non-Christian, is good and natural, but not sacramental because it does not impart the grace of a sacrament.
When Jesus said, “let no man separate what God has joined together,” this is translated into Church law as “a valid sacramental marriage which has been consummated cannot be dissolved by any human power, including the Roman Pontiff, or by any cause other than death.”
A non-sacramental marriage can be dissolved by the Church. The Pauline privilege can be used in the case of a marriage between two non-Christians. The authority for the Pauline privilege comes from I Corinthians 7:12-15, and can be authorized by the local bishop. The Petrine privilege is used in the case of a marriage between a Christian and a non-Christian, and the authority for it derives from sacred Tradition, and can only be authorized by the Pope.
A sacramental marriage that has not been consumated can be dispensed by the Pope.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Catholic2003 said:
Hello Catholic2003,
Jesus is clearly not changing Christian marriage to now unbreakable from being breakable. Jesus is restating what 'the Creator’ stated at the union of Adam and Eve, "the two shall become as one", “at the beginning”.
What ever “sacramental” marriage is, it is not “elevated” to being unbreakable from God’s creation Command to Adam and Eve that, 'the two shall become as one’. Jesus says, of Adam and Eve, “the two shall become as one’? Thus they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore, let no man separate what God has joined.” Do you believe that a Pope could have “dissolved”, 'the two shall become as one’, union of Adam and Eve?
Please clarify why you claim that marriage “instituted by Christ” is somehow unbreakable and “mankind had marriage long before the time of Christ” is breakable. This is not what Jesus teaches. Jesus makes Adam and Eve’s unbreakable union the example of what a Christian marriage should be. Does not the Church use the example of Adam and Eve’s union at Catholic marriages?
NAB GEN 2:24
**That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. **
**NAB MAT 19:3 **
****The Question of Divorce.
“Have you not read that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female and declared, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall become as one’? Thus they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore, let no man separate what God has joined.”[color=#00000] They said to him, “Then why did Moses command divorce and the promulgation of a divorce decree?” “Because of your stubbornness Moses let you divorce your wives,” he replied; “but at the beginning it was not that way. I now say to you, whoever divorces his wife (lewd conduct is a separate case) and marries another commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” [/color]
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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triciafrancess
Guest
Yes, this is a trick question because this poster, Steven Merten, seems obsessed with the topic of annulment. I have seen posts from him in other threads that question the validity of annulments granted by Church Tribunals, insinuating that those of us whose marriages have been declared null are still committing adultery and will be judged as adulterers by Jesus.
Here is a quote from another thread Steve Merten started about annulment:
Steven Merten:
I don’t understand this man’s obsession with annulment. Since he isn’t going to be judged for adultery, it seems as though his time might be better spent dealing with his own sins.
Tricia Frances
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Catholic2003
Guest
Steven Merten:
But if you want my personal interpretation of Scripture, here it is: The theory that all marriages are breakable is contradicted by Mark 10:9 and Luke 16:18. The theory that all marriages are unbreakable is contradicted by I Cor. 7:15. So any interpretation that is going to be consistant will all of scripture will involve some marriages being breakable and other marriages being unbreakable. The conditions specified in I Cor. 7:15 help identify that the breakable marriages are the ones involving non-Christians.
Well, first and foremost, I claim that because that is what the Catholic Church teaches.
But if you want my personal interpretation of Scripture, here it is: The theory that all marriages are breakable is contradicted by Mark 10:9 and Luke 16:18. The theory that all marriages are unbreakable is contradicted by I Cor. 7:15. So any interpretation that is going to be consistant will all of scripture will involve some marriages being breakable and other marriages being unbreakable. The conditions specified in I Cor. 7:15 help identify that the breakable marriages are the ones involving non-Christians.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Originally Posted by Steven Merten
People are decieved [sic] into thinking that Jesus is going to “unconditionally love” everyone into heaven. This is not the case. Jesus is the one who gave us the concept of eternal damnation and, through scriptures, he often warns us of who He will damn. *
Here is the link that explains what triciafrancess is quoteing me on WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All
*
Church leaders [sic] greatest obligation to the Father and Jesus is to use the “keys to the Kingdom” (the power to have Jesus hold a man bound to his sins on judgement day) to protect the flock and not let sinners lead the body of the Church into sin. Are they fulfilling this obligation in the logrithmic [sic] explosion of Church annulments?
*Here is the link that explains what triciafrancess is quoting me on Throwing Stones
Hello triciafrancess,*
*Many people see God’s commandments as only something that Church leaders should focus on getting people forgiven of so that the perpentrators do not go to hell. There is another, more important, side to God’s Commandments. To not steal, murder, adulter, lie and covet your neighbor is how you love your neighbor as yourself and how you love God. When you break God’s Commandments your neighbor is harmed or/and the Christian Community also suffers. *
If anyone can date (with the intention of a Catholic marriage) any Protestant who is married to an unbaptized person, then Jesus and the Father’s law against adultery does not protect those in such a Protestant marriage. Such an action in a Catholic marriage would be an act of great hatred for one’s brother which, if unrepented, the perpentrator is in great danger of going to hell. This is God’s way of protecting those in a Catholic marriage union from such brotherly hatred. If God does not protect non-Catholic marriages in the same way He protects Catholic marriages, then people should clearly know this.
You have judged me as being evil. I only seek to find out just who God’s Commandments and Church leaders will protect from brotherly hatred and who they do not protect.
The poor woman who was denied by Church tribunals of any say in the annulment of her marriage is very frightening to me for the sake of the whole Christian community. If a Catholic married man decides to abandon his wife and children to marry a younger woman, should not the wife, whom thought she was “one flesh” and “let no man seperate” for decades, at least be able to plead her case to the anullment tribunal?
Can any Catholic who decides to trade in his wife for a new model, have a 95% chance of success that the Catholic tribunal will find a flaw in his Catholic marriage contract? Was it the Holy Spirit, who Church leaders may believe, had Church leaders reverse what the Holy Spirit had lead Church leaders to do for 1970 years? Does the Church not allow us to discuss Church law? Who does God’s Commandment protect?
**NAB ROM 13 Love Fulfills the Law.
**
He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment there may be are all summed up in this, saying (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love never wrongs the neighbor, hence love is the fulfillment of the law.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
People are decieved [sic] into thinking that Jesus is going to “unconditionally love” everyone into heaven. This is not the case. Jesus is the one who gave us the concept of eternal damnation and, through scriptures, he often warns us of who He will damn. *
Here is the link that explains what triciafrancess is quoteing me on WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All
*
Church leaders [sic] greatest obligation to the Father and Jesus is to use the “keys to the Kingdom” (the power to have Jesus hold a man bound to his sins on judgement day) to protect the flock and not let sinners lead the body of the Church into sin. Are they fulfilling this obligation in the logrithmic [sic] explosion of Church annulments?
*Here is the link that explains what triciafrancess is quoting me on Throwing Stones
Hello triciafrancess,*
*Many people see God’s commandments as only something that Church leaders should focus on getting people forgiven of so that the perpentrators do not go to hell. There is another, more important, side to God’s Commandments. To not steal, murder, adulter, lie and covet your neighbor is how you love your neighbor as yourself and how you love God. When you break God’s Commandments your neighbor is harmed or/and the Christian Community also suffers. *
If anyone can date (with the intention of a Catholic marriage) any Protestant who is married to an unbaptized person, then Jesus and the Father’s law against adultery does not protect those in such a Protestant marriage. Such an action in a Catholic marriage would be an act of great hatred for one’s brother which, if unrepented, the perpentrator is in great danger of going to hell. This is God’s way of protecting those in a Catholic marriage union from such brotherly hatred. If God does not protect non-Catholic marriages in the same way He protects Catholic marriages, then people should clearly know this.
You have judged me as being evil. I only seek to find out just who God’s Commandments and Church leaders will protect from brotherly hatred and who they do not protect.
The poor woman who was denied by Church tribunals of any say in the annulment of her marriage is very frightening to me for the sake of the whole Christian community. If a Catholic married man decides to abandon his wife and children to marry a younger woman, should not the wife, whom thought she was “one flesh” and “let no man seperate” for decades, at least be able to plead her case to the anullment tribunal?
Can any Catholic who decides to trade in his wife for a new model, have a 95% chance of success that the Catholic tribunal will find a flaw in his Catholic marriage contract? Was it the Holy Spirit, who Church leaders may believe, had Church leaders reverse what the Holy Spirit had lead Church leaders to do for 1970 years? Does the Church not allow us to discuss Church law? Who does God’s Commandment protect?
**NAB ROM 13 Love Fulfills the Law.
**
He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment there may be are all summed up in this, saying (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love never wrongs the neighbor, hence love is the fulfillment of the law.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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KathyT
Guest
Marriage is the only sacrament that is performed by the man and woman getting married. They make solemn promises and as long as they get married in any church it is a valid marriage and should be annulled.
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Rae12076
Guest
Please let me know if I am misunderstanding this, and if so please correct me. I have been raised Protestant and therefore was baptized Protestant. I married Protestant and that marriage ended six years ago. I am now dating a Catholic man who himself is divorced and looking at getting an anullment so that if we should decide to marry he will be free to do so. I will soon be taking the classes to be baptized Catholic. Will I too have to get my marriage anulled if we should decide to marry, although my first marrigae was not by the church? To complicate the situation more I do have a daughter from my previous marriage and if my marriage is anulled how is it effected by the fact that I do have a child. Please help me I am so confused, I was under the impression that if I divorced prior to being Catholic I did not have to get an anullment. 
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Kielbasi
Guest
“Dating” doesn’t imply sex at all.
But as far as the poll question, a protestant marriage has to be annulled before the parties can be married in the Catholic Church.
Although, “adultery”, from my understanding can only be committed by a *married *individual. Its still objectively a sin for anyone (not just Catholics) to have relations with someone in a presumably valid marriage.
But as far as the poll question, a protestant marriage has to be annulled before the parties can be married in the Catholic Church.
Although, “adultery”, from my understanding can only be committed by a *married *individual. Its still objectively a sin for anyone (not just Catholics) to have relations with someone in a presumably valid marriage.
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Kielbasi
Guest
You are under the wrong impression. Even if you had no intentions of converting, a non-catholic still has to go to the tribunal before getting married in the Catholic church, as long as their ex is still among the living.
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puzzleannie
Guest
Steven Merten:
well, what you heard is not church law unless you heard it from a canon lawyer. the Catholic Church is about the only Christian denomination that still defends Christ’s teaching on divorce and adultery. The Catholic Church recognizes all marriages of non-Catholics as valid until proven otherwise, so what you heard is wrong. Non-Catholics are not bound by Church laws on marriage, but Catholics are, and Catholics are not allowed to marry divorced persons, are not allowed to marry non-Catholics without a specific dispensation, and are not allowed themselves to marry after divorce, unless the marriage tribunal investigates the first marriage and issues a decree of nullity, that is, finds that the conditions for a valid marriage did not exist at the time, therefore no marriage ever happened. A previously married non-Catholic who wishes to marry a Catholic may not do so until the facts of the previous marriage have been established and an annulment declared if the facts support it.
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hilde_the_dog
Guest
One as I grew up in Calvinism we had no annulments. PERIOD. Second when my grandmother was divorced from her second husband (both had their previous spouse’s die before they got marride) in the Calvinst strain some churches would not let her take communion - since she was divorced. OUCH
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hilde_the_dog
Guest
Sorry I forgot what is the strain of P and as I grew up Marriage and Baptism were Sacraments… and as such can’t be dismissed, thus in my P old faith it is wrong to remarry. (Dutch Calvinist)
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CARose
Guest
Please do not worry about what this would do to your child, other than the obvious fact that you and her father are not together. The child does not become illegitimate, as all children are a blessing in the eyes of God and the Church. Legitimacy is a legal term and the Church is not making a determination of the Civil status of your child, rather the Eclesial status of your marriage.
You child will be considered legally legitimate regardless of that the Church determines regarding your request for an annulment.
I hope this helps to calm some of you concerns.
May God Bless you as you continue on the path into the Church and may the you submit yourself joyfully to the authority of the Church, even in such touchy matters as a divorce / annulment.
CARose
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hilde_the_dog
Guest
Rae12076 regarding classes for baptism your Protestant baptism should be okay if its a mainline church. The Catholic church accepts most baptisms…they accepted my calvinist onePlease let me know if I am misunderstanding this, and if so please correct me. I have been raised Protestant and therefore was baptized Protestant. I married Protestant and that marriage ended six years ago. I am now dating a Catholic man who himself is divorced and looking at getting an anullment so that if we should decide to marry he will be free to do so. I will soon be taking the classes to be baptized Catholic. Will I too have to get my marriage anulled if we should decide to marry, although my first marrigae was not by the church? To complicate the situation more I do have a daughter from my previous marriage and if my marriage is anulled how is it effected by the fact that I do have a child. Please help me I am so confused, I was under the impression that if I divorced prior to being Catholic I did not have to get an anullment.
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