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LittleDeb
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This states my position exactly. Two lapsed Catholics stand up in a random church and say vows, and theirs is presumed invalid. My DH (unbaptized) and his ex, a lapsed something or other, stand up in a random church, and say vows and theirs is presumed valid.
On some level it seems to be ecumenism gone amuck.I also agree that we can’t fault the Church for taking the high road. But this is precisely why I (a Catholic) did go ahead and date him. If the tribunal had found his former marriage valid, I would have had serious doubts about their understanding of marriage. I can certainly see holding a Catholic to a stance of no dating when it appears that the marriage could very well be valid. They got that memo when they signed up. Non-Catholics didn’t.
I certainly agree with the presumption of validity, in spirit. But the letter of the law application, I believe, is misapplied all too often, even many times to Catholics.
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catharina
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Really, I can’t say that I have ever heard that is so.This states my position exactly. **Two lapsed Catholics stand up in a random church and say vows, and theirs is presumed invalid. ** My DH (unbaptized) and his ex, a lapsed something or other, stand up in a random church, and say vows and theirs is presumed valid.
I also agree that we can’t fault the Church for taking the high road. But this is precisely why I (a Catholic) did go ahead and date him. If the tribunal had found his former marriage valid, I would have had serious doubts about their understanding of marriage. I can certainly see holding a Catholic to a stance of no dating when it appears that the marriage could very well be valid. They got that memo when they signed up. Non-Catholics didn’t.
I certainly agree with the presumption of validity, in spirit. But the letter of the law application, I believe, is misapplied all too often, even many times to Catholics.
The validity of a marriage has to do with the understanding of marriage at that time of the marriage. Two lapsed Catholics who enter a married state with one another are likely VALIDLY married if their true intent was to marry. In fact, the Church allows for and recognizes that there need be no “celebrant” at all in grievous historical times (when no clergy are available).
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LittleDeb
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Sorry my wording was confusing. I meant two lapsed Catholics who stand up in a random non-Catholic church. Theirs is presumed invalid from lack of form. pnewton points out that since there is no true agreed upon form in the many flavors of protestantism that no protestant becoming Catholic goes through a short “defect of form” annulment, where a Catholic returning to the Sacraments often can.
That is where lapsed protestants are being held to a higher scrutiny than lapsed Catholics. My point in posting in this thread was in relation to dating during that state. A protestant who wants to date a Catholic has to have an annulment in hand to date a Catholic. That can take years to get. A Catholic who has defect of form has only weeks to wait.
That is why I said the format of annulment is broken. Where would my husband have been if I had refused to date him? Why would he have applied to the Tribunal in the first place? Would he have had the chance to see the same passion I have for the Church if we hadn’t been discussing marriage on our very first date? Would we now be married or would I have passed him up because of his bad lot in life to not be born Catholic?
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dulcissima
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I find it rather interesting that there seems to be a different definition of dating in this thread compared to the thread asking what the difference is between dating and courtship in the Family Life forum.
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pnewton
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We already had one example where a marriage was summarily annulled just for being outdoors. Two Catholics are obligated to follow the Catholic form of marriage, lapsed or not. Any deviation allows for immediate annulment based on lack of form. Anytime such a couple comes back to the Church, they must have a convalidation.
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catharina
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I see your point. Thank you.
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THurifer2
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The bible says adultery can be committed without even touching someone.
THere is no phyiscal act that crosses one over the line of adultery.
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Br.Rich_SFO
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Say what?
The Petrine Privilege allows the Roman Pontiff to disoulve a non-consumated Marriage between…
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pnewton
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That is the sin of lust that is specifically mentioned. Yes, can have such an inordinate desire for sex that it is as it one commits adultery. I do not believe that is what is being addressed. The topic is romance, not lust. It is a relationship that is desired, not sex.
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quiet52
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from post 81:
I believe marriage preparation needs improvement too.
How can we lay people speak up about these issues? I don’t sense any willingness on the powers-that-be to truly hear us.
You are right. I presume annulments may be “handled” better by some priests/parishes/dioceses than others in our country. There are many inconsistencies, misteachings, and uncharitable acts involved, oftentimes with insensitivity about the emotional and other trials of the persons involved.
I believe marriage preparation needs improvement too.
How can we lay people speak up about these issues? I don’t sense any willingness on the powers-that-be to truly hear us.
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otjm
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It is my impression that the powers that be have figured this part out. I really don’t think that the individuals who are our bishops, be they conservative, moderate or liberal, have not figured out that the Church has some significant problems on its hand with the current divorce rates, not to mention the current level of people simply shacking up.
But before we all get our knickers in a twist, let’s look a little closer.
Marriage prep done by an offical of the Church any more statistically is not being done on 18 and 19 year old kids, as the average marriage age for first marriage is now into the later 20’s.
And the folks who are sitting through the required preparation proceedings are those who have lived in a culture that is hyper-saturated with sexual images and content; I am not talking about Playboy and its ilk, but simply noting regular (not HBO, etc) programing, the visual images in magazines… the list goes on and on. Not to mention that the majority of them have gone through public schools, with their sex-ed classes, and we won’t go there about content.
And to cap that off, the 18 to 30 age range group has an average Mass attendance rate of 21% going every week; another 35% going once or a few times a month.
So before you berate the Church - the bishops and priests - who are on the firing line trying to get something through the skulls of these people traipsing up to the altar, you might remember that the priest may not see 79% of them more than a couple of times a month maybe, to a few times a year, to not at all.
But who saw them on a daily basis? Their parents. Who were the people primarily charged with raising them in the Faith? Their parents.
Who did not instill the Faith well - the bishops and priests, or the parents?
And you think that the priest, getting a 20 something, visually, auditorily and practically sex saturated young man or woman is going to be able to explain the Sacrament of Marriage in a 6 week program? A 6 month program? Any program?
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otjm
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A question occured to me. What difference is there between a person divorced, with no annulment completed, dating someone, and a person who has not been married (which includes those annuled) dating someone, e.g. a non-Catholic, who has not received an annulment and more likely than not doesn’t even know what they are let alone that they may apply to them?
It would seem from the posts that some of those among us would say that was a sin. But unless one started dating that individual, the issue most likely would never come up; and unless they had dated to the point of knowing they were serious about each other, it most likely would not have any potential for successful resolution.
And please, do not cop out and come back with something simplistic like one should never date a non-Catholic; that is simply not a real world answer to begin with, and further ignores the practical reality that dating Catholics is no panacea.
It would seem from the posts that some of those among us would say that was a sin. But unless one started dating that individual, the issue most likely would never come up; and unless they had dated to the point of knowing they were serious about each other, it most likely would not have any potential for successful resolution.
And please, do not cop out and come back with something simplistic like one should never date a non-Catholic; that is simply not a real world answer to begin with, and further ignores the practical reality that dating Catholics is no panacea.
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jmcrae
Guest
Here is my advice: never date anyone who has a former spouse and children. Even with a Declaration of Nullity, you are still marrying the former spouse and former kids, right along with your intended.
The Church says, don’t date people who have previously been married, who don’t have a Declaration of Nullity proving that they are free to marry.
(And also don’t date crazy people, unless they have a letter from their doctor certifying that they are sane.)
I don’t think it would take very long to find out that they had been married before, especially if they had kids. Most people like to talk about their kids.
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catharina
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OK. Thanks - you’ve clarified now. Thought you were saying in Post 97 that non-consummation referred to Petrine and Pauline privileges.
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otjm
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Well, the song says Fools rush in where angels fear to tread… It might be good advice if you are happily married and young. If you are older, and widowed or divorced - or even simply never married - the pool of potential spouses changes. Easy to pontificate. Not so easy to live.
Perhaps I missed a post; I am not sure that can be cited. If you care to, I am open to looking at it. If you are saying what you thing the Church says, please back it up.
Note: I will agree that one runs a risk whenever one dates, and risks are not always the wise course of action. But your blanket statement I don’t think is accurate.
Only if you also have a letter from the same doctor…
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pnewton
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There has yet to be any citation on it. Here is the best advice I can give.
If you think something is wrong, it probably is.
Read the book (CCC). It is a great gift to the faithtul.
If the Catechism doesn’t address an issue, talk to your priest. At least after reading the Catechism you will be able to tell if he is being faithful to what the Church does teach in it.
Above all, pray a lot.
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cameron_lansing
Guest
Just a little clarification to this.
A declaration that the marriage was invalid would have arisen from the lack of the assistance by an authorized priest or deacon or the absence of the two required witnesses.
The location itself was not the cause of nullity would not have been the cause of invalidity.
Had an authorized priest or deacon assisted the “outdoor” wedding without permission (and permission for an outdoor wedding is very rarely given), its celebration would have been illicit (against Church law). However, the place of the celebration would not have invalidated the marriage.
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Gertabelle
Guest
He among you who is without sin, let him be the first to throw that stone.
Hey, if you can’t deal with former spouses and kids, don’t marry someone who has them.
As for me, my ex-husband is an old friend, and we remain friends even now. Most single men are put off by this, to be sure. “My woman! [grunt, grunt]”
AND, when that extraordinarily fortunate man finally wins my heart, and it is clear that this is God’s Will for our lives, this blessed man will get not only a beautiful and devoted wife, but a gentle, wild, brilliant little boy, and a dear friend in this little boy’s father. And my son will get another adult, one whose heart is so filled with God’s love that it has no room for jealousy, to help raise him to adulthood.
Sound far-fetched? Well, it certainly is in our society where divorced people are supposed to be bitter and hateful towards one another… even as we profess to having forgiven the other. But I only live in this world, I am not of it. Through God’s grace alone, I am able to create a world for my son where all of his family members get along and even love each other. I spent part of my vacation with my ex’s mom so my little one had both grandmas with him to celebrate the wonder that is Legoland.
This is what every child needs and deserves – and the fact that I can give it to him absolutely does not indicate that I should not marry. Quite the opposite – it shows my priorities are exactly where they should be, and that the grace of God is alive and well in my heart and in my actions. This, in my opinion, makes me prime marriage material, should God will it.
Gertie the great
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