Well said. There’s a reason why the Catholic Church teaches that living together before marriage is a sin (even though we may not hear it very often, or at all, from the Church and her hierarchy). The Church understands human nature, since she has both Divine Revelation and natural law as the standard. That there are many people who reject God’s revealed truth isn’t surprising. Most want to go along with the dominant culture, and it’s secular values.Giving away free milk makes it harder to sell the cow. (Granted a very unflattering analogy, but highly applicable). I would go further and point out how “shacking up” is so unfavorable to women. When it comes to finding a sexual partner, most men are looking for young physically fit women and most women are looking for stable and mature men. Shacking up for a few years and the women lose most of what attracts mates while men only gain. Is it really surprising that many men choose to cancel the lease and trade in for a newer model? (another unflattering analogy but what else is there when sex has become completely objectified?) Holding out is a risky prospect (particularly when there is so much free milk out there) but inevitably will return women to the power position if they are seeking to find a mate for life.
I find your use of dehumanizing metaphors (e.g. women as cows) nicely complements the Madonna/Whore dichotomy you espouse. Bravo.Giving away free milk makes it harder to sell the cow. (Granted a very unflattering analogy, but highly applicable). I would go further and point out how “shacking up” is so unfavorable to women. When it comes to finding a sexual partner, most men are looking for young physically fit women and most women are looking for stable and mature men. Shacking up for a few years and the women lose most of what attracts mates while men only gain. Is it really surprising that many men choose to cancel the lease and trade in for a newer model? (another unflattering analogy but what else is there when sex has become completely objectified?) Holding out is a risky prospect (particularly when there is so much free milk out there) but inevitably will return women to the power position if they are seeking to find a mate for life.
I agree with some of this but not the age issue. The fact is not all women date based on a man’s job nor does all men date based on age. In fact many men assume they can get younger when in fact they are deluding themselves. However, many women don’t respect themselves enough to wait until marriage for things like children or even living together.Giving away free milk makes it harder to sell the cow. (Granted a very unflattering analogy, but highly applicable). I would go further and point out how “shacking up” is so unfavorable to women. When it comes to finding a sexual partner, most men are looking for young physically fit women and most women are looking for stable and mature men. Shacking up for a few years and the women lose most of what attracts mates while men only gain. Is it really surprising that many men choose to cancel the lease and trade in for a newer model? (another unflattering analogy but what else is there when sex has become completely objectified?) Holding out is a risky prospect (particularly when there is so much free milk out there) but inevitably will return women to the power position if they are seeking to find a mate for life.
Uncalled for, and very uncharitable. Reported.I find your use of dehumanizing metaphors (e.g. women as cows) nicely complements the Madonna/Whore dichotomy you espouse. Bravo.
Living together provides one benefit: if one partner starts punching or battering the other, the relationship can be more easily severed. If I had to choose between “respecting myself” and “keeping my teeth”, I’d choose the teeth nine times out of ten.I agree with some of this but not the age issue. The fact is not all women date based on a man’s job nor does all men date based on age. In fact many men assume they can get younger when in fact they are deluding themselves. However, many women don’t respect themselves enough to wait until marriage for things like children or even living together.
And women are not cars that men are entitled to “test drive” before they commit.Life is not some sort of vending machine where (if you’re a woman) you put in chastity and you get out a great marriage and a lovely family.
They days when men were allowed to batter their wives are long gone. It is surprisingly easy for someone to sever a relationship when the other one is in jail for domestic assault. On the other hand you’d be surprised how often a man will hold his hand when he realizes that the person he’s about to hit will end up with half his life savings. That’s not an option for a woman in a shack-up.Living together provides one benefit: if one partner starts punching or battering the other, the relationship can be more easily severed. If I had to choose between “respecting myself” and “keeping my teeth”, I’d choose the teeth nine times out of ten.
So far you’ve asserted that it’s better for women to marry so that a man who would otherwise “trade her in” for a “younger model” will have a more difficult time doing so, and so that a man who would hit her will be forced to think twice because of the consequences of divorce.They days when men were allowed to batter their wives are long gone. It is surprisingly easy for someone to sever a relationship when the other one is in jail for domestic assault. On the other hand you’d be surprised how often a man will hold his hand when he realizes that the person he’s about to hit will end up with half his life savings. That’s not an option for a woman in a shack-up.
In some cases yes, but often abuse shows up years later.Living together provides one benefit: if one partner starts punching or battering the other, the relationship can be more easily severed. If I had to choose between “respecting myself” and “keeping my teeth”, I’d choose the teeth nine times out of ten.
I wouldn’t date either man. In fact I did date a fee men with the attitude younger is better and I dumped them. On dating sites I see all these much older men seeking younger and years later are still there!So far you’ve asserted that it’s better for women to marry so that a man who would otherwise “trade her in” for a “younger model” will have a more difficult time doing so, and so that a man who would hit her will be forced to think twice because of the consequences of divorce.
Erm…I would much rather live in sin with either of those men than MARRY them in hopes that the marriage license is enough to restrain their immoral and outright abusive nature.
I’m a very happily married woman and I believe strongly in marriage, but you’re making some terrible arguments that would make anyone flee from the idea.
Actually I’m suggesting that if a man isn’t willing to make a commitment then the woman shouldn’t waste her time. She’s clearly too good for him. My other comments were rebuttals to the ridiculous claims that in some situations shacking up is better for the woman. It isn’t. In those cases where it works out in the end you almost always find that if the woman had insisted on marriage prior to cohabitation that the man admits that he would have eventually acquiesced. The guy who is marriage material will get married sooner or later, the guy who isn’t will never will. Shacking up increases the chances that when it’s discovered which category the guy is in, it’s too late for the woman to find someone else.So far you’ve asserted that it’s better for women to marry so that a man who would otherwise “trade her in” for a “younger model” will have a more difficult time doing so, and so that a man who would hit her will be forced to think twice because of the consequences of divorce.
Also, there isn’t necessarily someone for everybody. Or, you won’t necessarily meet the right person when it is still biologically possible to have children.Actually I’m suggesting that if a man isn’t willing to make a commitment then the woman shouldn’t waste her time. She’s clearly too good for him. My other comments were rebuttals to the ridiculous claims that in some situations shacking up is better for the woman. It isn’t. In those cases where it works out in the end you almost always find that if the woman had insisted on marriage prior to cohabitation that the man admits that he would have eventually acquiesced. The guy who is marriage material will get married sooner or later, the guy who isn’t will never will. Shacking up increases the chances that when it’s discovered which category the guy is in, it’s too late for the woman to find someone else.
“Eventually”? The decision to marry should be a mutual understanding. You’re describing a siege, one party emotionally wearing down another until they agree to marriage. Such a state does not lead to the healthiest of marriages.My other comments were rebuttals to the ridiculous claims that in some situations shacking up is better for the woman. It isn’t. In those cases where it works out in the end you almost always find that if the woman had insisted on marriage prior to cohabitation that the man admits that he would have eventually acquiesced.
I’m dubious about this “too late” thing. It’s just a short distance between “too late”, “sour milk”, and “damaged goods.”The guy who is marriage material will get married sooner or later, the guy who isn’t will never will. Shacking up increases the chances that when it’s discovered which category the guy is in, it’s too late for the woman to find someone else.
True not to mention the person will meet someone who can’t have children even if it’s technically possible. I know several who met and married young only to find out they were unable to have children. I’m tired of this idea that older women ate unwanted while older men ate in demand because it’s not true.Also, there isn’t necessarily someone for everybody. Or, you won’t necessarily meet the right person when it is still biologically possible to have children.
I had to add that part.
The main prize of chastity is being chaste (and probably avoiding certain avoidable bad experiences). Being chaste doesn’t mean that you will marry a wonderful person or have wonderful children.
I agree that shacking up is never a good idea. There will be endless reasons why most here will disagree with you. They’ll come up with all sorts of scenarios to try to prove you wrong.Actually I’m suggesting that if a man isn’t willing to make a commitment then the woman shouldn’t waste her time. She’s clearly too good for him. My other comments were rebuttals to the ridiculous claims that in some situations shacking up is better for the woman. It isn’t. In those cases where it works out in the end you almost always find that if the woman had insisted on marriage prior to cohabitation that the man admits that he would have eventually acquiesced. The guy who is marriage material will get married sooner or later, the guy who isn’t will never will. Shacking up increases the chances that when it’s discovered which category the guy is in, it’s too late for the woman to find someone else.
The OP references a book that was national in scope. I did the analysis for where I live to be able to do a gut-check of the author’s conclusions. Anyone else is welcome to do another city: census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/Some thoughts:
- I think Detroit area is a pretty extreme case to choose. Why not choose a more average city like Atlanta or Houston or Pittsburgh or Dallas or Washington DC or Portland or St. Louis or basically any other US city?
I can’t speak to the preferences of women, but do know female friends that routinely use internet dating sites to screen out men without college degrees. Men do the same. It’s a form of classism, no doubt, and certainly not what our faith would have us do.
- I also think that it’s not true that college educated women won’t look at non-college men. Would a nurse really look down her nose at a plumber or an electrician? Would a kindergarten teacher not date a contractor?
If you look at real median incomes of people without college degrees, they have been falling over time. Those with more education have been holding more constant. See this page for data: trends.collegeboard.org/education-pays/figures-tables/median-earnings-gender-and-education-level-1971-2008
- I think one thing that the college versus non-college analysis misses is that while there are still plenty of traditional solid earning “male” jobs, pretty much all of the solid earning “female” jobs require college. For a non-college educated woman to earn a solid income, she would have to cross over into traditionally “male” professions and then experience some unpleasant penalties, not limited to: crude sexual harassment, intermittent employment, inflexible hours, no benefits, etc.
Those are the traditional jobs that women held in greater frequency. I don’t know the recent data, but women have been increasing their participation in other jobs as well. My last two managers were women.
- Nursing and teaching, while they are stereotypically female jobs and require college, have several large advantages: a) a solid salary b) the potential for family-friendly hours (summers off or work three days a week) c) benefits d)security e) the ability to take time off for kids and jump back in. So, there’s a reason that those college-requiring jobs have been so attractive to women.
- This part of the OP was iffy:
“I must confess to breaking up with some of my recent girlfriends because I thought I could find a mate that better met my “criteria,” which include, in addition to being Catholic, being sufficiently pretty, not too overweight, educated, and nearby.”
OK, maybe I shouldn’t have shared that information. I was really trying to connect with those women, despite my initial misgivings. I don’t want to be a shallow jerk, so I certainly did my best and tried to give those relationships time to blossom. Should I have avoided trying to find real love with those women, when I really wanted to be able to overcome my initial doubts?I don’t think it’s kosher to date women long enough to call them “girlfriends” and then dump them for that stuff. Do you really mean “girlfriend” or “woman I’m seeing”? If you mean you’re seeing women for three months and then belatedly discovering they’re not Catholic or they’re fat or they don’t live in your area, that’s kind of weird. If you’re calling women your girlfriend after two dates, that’s weird, too.
It shouldn’t take more than three dates to figure out if a woman is attractive to you. If you have to ask yourself, “Am I attracted to her?” you aren’t.I can’t speak to the preferences of women, but do know female friends that routinely use internet dating sites to screen out men without college degrees. Men do the same. It’s a form of classism, no doubt, and certainly not what our faith would have us do.
**It can be a rough proxy for compatibility and an easy way to deal with large numbers of profiles.
I think that in real life, people would be more forgiving if there was obvious compatibility. **
If you look at real median incomes of people without college degrees, they have been falling over time. Those with more education have been holding more constant. See this page for data: trends.collegeboard.org/education-pays/figures-tables/median-earnings-gender-and-education-level-1971-2008
**Nonetheless, there are better options available for non-college men than for non-college women.
Which largely explains why more women bother going to college…
**
OK, maybe I shouldn’t have shared that information. I was really trying to connect with those women, despite my initial misgivings. I don’t want to be a shallow jerk, so I certainly did my best and tried to give those relationships time to blossom. Should I have avoided trying to find real love with those women, when I really wanted to be able to overcome my initial doubts?
Meh, a lot of married men after being married to the same woman after all those years trade in their wives for a younger model. There are no guarantees in life, even when one lives in virtue. Bad things do happen to good people.Giving away free milk makes it harder to sell the cow. (Granted a very unflattering analogy, but highly applicable). I would go further and point out how “shacking up” is so unfavorable to women. When it comes to finding a sexual partner, most men are looking for young physically fit women and most women are looking for stable and mature men. Shacking up for a few years and the women lose most of what attracts mates while men only gain. Is it really surprising that many men choose to cancel the lease and trade in for a newer model? (another unflattering analogy but what else is there when sex has become completely objectified?) Holding out is a risky prospect (particularly when there is so much free milk out there) but inevitably will return women to the power position if they are seeking to find a mate for life.