Dating, higher education, sex ratios, and the hookup culture

[Xantippe]

What conclusions are you referring to? Precisely what assumptions are you talking about? She made an objectively false claim about the theory of evolutionary biology and I called her on it. Everything I said here was 100% accurate. Where is the flaw in my logic?

If you are serious about trying to help me with my debate style then you need to be more specific because I have no idea what you are talking about.

You wrote: “Evolutionary psychology is about how people think and the basis for their behavior TODAY.” Yes, looking back to eras that we have very, very little information about.

I’ve seen at least a dozen different evolutionary psychology arguments, and they are usually of the form “Modern people today do X because way back in the misty pre-historic past, X was an adaptive behavior.” As I said earlier, these are unfalsifiable just so stories. It’s lots of fun, I don’t argue that, but it’s miles away from being either science or history.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What conclusions are you referring to? Precisely what assumptions are you talking about? She made an objectively false claim about the theory of evolutionary biology and I called her on it. Everything I said here was 100% accurate. Where is the flaw in my logic?

If you are serious about trying to help me with my debate style then you need to be more specific because I have no idea what you are talking about.

We must have different definitions of accurate. You realize that in trying to make your point you have overstated your position, attacked others, assumed ignorance of people you know nothing of their qualifications, and refuse to objectively step back and look at the issue with a fair and unbiased mind? I don’t have a dog in the fight. But I can tell you that you posted a thread and then when posters who are knowledgeable, charitable and kind enough to engage your thread with conversation you belittle them. I have yet to see any “facts” from you but there sure is a lot of telling us you have facts…

You should be self aware of how you are coming across. And it is not knowledgeable or charitable. I don’t wish to dissect every little word you write to show you your mistakes. But you should think about how to converse and articulate your ideas without expressing an ego that you cannot prove you deserve to have…

You should not treat other posters this way. Your stay here will be short if you do. And I don’t like to see that happen.

 

[Convert1]

Goodness! You leave a post for 24 hours and look what happens!
Very interesting exchanges.

I will say, (back to original topic) I found this article that does equate lower divorce ratios in couples , each with higher education levels. Pretty interesting.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1388870/US-census-shows-couples-staying-together.html

The “hook up” culture, abounds in general in our society. Having five children, all through college, I can tell you they all complained about this common practice in young adults. Which I’m sure continues on when they are out of school. unfortunately, I don’t see it changing anytime soon. To broad stroke this to women only or men only, is somewhat inaccurate. My sons and daughters all saw this practice, and still do even after college. It is a social decline in morality overall.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

‘Leader’ and ‘dictator’ are not synonymous.

To make this as non threatening and uncontroversial as possible, think of all the roles that Brad Pitt, Leonardo DiCaprio, Harrison Ford, George Clooney, etc have ever played. Weren’t virtually all of their attractive characters leaders? Can you name a single attractive man in the media or in a work of fiction who is not a leader, even/especially in his romantic encounters?

I’m not sure I’d go with this list of actors.

I think Gregory Peck, Jimmy Stewart, Cary Grant and Clark Gable.

I think especially George Bailey from “It’s a Wonderful Life” and Atticus Finch were great examples of men, fathers and husbands.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Living together provides one benefit: if one partner starts punching or battering the other, the relationship can be more easily severed. If I had to choose between “respecting myself” and “keeping my teeth”, I’d choose the teeth nine times out of ten.

Well, I think those who have gone through such a break-up may object.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Sure there is some stability, but the question I pose is: Is there too much concentration on career over family?

Yes. People seem to be under the impression that they have to a lot of material things in order to succeed or have their kids succeed.

It’s an illusion to say the least.

 

[jlc2k2]

Agreed so far.

This is where you misunderstand me. If what the virtuous woman wants is a commitment from a man then ditching her virtue is not the solution. Let’s put guys into three categories,
1 - those who want commitment prior to mating
2 - those who are willing to commit if it is a necessary precondition to mating
3 - those who prefer to look for another mate rather than commit.

(And by commitment I mean a real for-better-or-worse commitment not a Meat Loaf “By the Dashboard Light” kind of commitment.)

As I mentioned here there are many guys who fall into category 2. I would even suggest that most men fall into the first two categories and the rest are just cads that all women should avoid like the plague. By not insisting on marriage first, women cannot clearly distinguish the category 2 guys from those in category 3.

Can you please point me to any post on this thread where someone has said a woman should give up her virtue? The closest I can find is Xantippe saying that a woman keeping her virtue and holding out is not a guarantee of a good marriage and life. That does NOT mean she thinks that it is good for women to shack up or hook up.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes. People seem to be under the impression that they have to a lot of material things in order to succeed or have their kids succeed.

It’s an illusion to say the least.

And yet, it’s very hard for those that don’t have an education and a good income to either marry or stay married, and education is one of the most expensive things there are these days…

That’s what the US marriage statistics suggest, at least.

 

[Xantippe]

Can you please point me to any post on this thread where someone has said a woman should give up her virtue? The closest I can find is Xantippe saying that a woman keeping her virtue and holding out is not a guarantee of a good marriage and life. That does NOT mean she thinks that it is good for women to shack up or hook up.

Right.

One of the things I’ve been trying to get across on this thread is that I have a lot of reservations about some of the traditional chastity talk that we are all familiar with–if you wait you’ll have an amazing marriage! and amazing sex! and an amazing family!

I feel like that’s over-promising, which can lead to disappointment, disillusionment, and perhaps moral compromises when the amazing husband doesn’t arrive on schedule. It also encourages a rather mercenary attitude (I do X and God is going to give me Y), which can’t be spiritually healthy.

One of my favorite new discoveries is the blogger at Seraphic Singles/Edinburgh Housewife. She married as a virgin at 25, got divorced at 27, got an annulment and then was single again until she was 38. She has a great husband and a lovely home, but she’s now of an age (mid-40s) where it’s almost certain she cannot have children. That’s what the price (as well as the benefit) of waiting was for her–just as it is quite likely the price for quite a number of women on CAF–they may eventually get married, but it’s quite likely that they may never have children, or at most just one. (I say this as a woman that met my future husband at the approved 22 years old, married before I was 23, and have a lovely home and family. But, as I understand more and more, a lot of that was sheer luck and being in the right place at the right time.)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And yet, it’s very hard for those that don’t have an education and a good income to either marry or stay married, and education is one of the most expensive things there are these days…

That’s what the US marriage statistics suggest, at least.

Matthew Trainor,

Here is your opening…

 

[MatthewTrainor]

Can you please point me to any post on this thread where someone has said a woman should give up her virtue? The closest I can find is Xantippe saying that a woman keeping her virtue and holding out is not a guarantee of a good marriage and life. That does NOT mean she thinks that it is good for women to shack up or hook up.

Other posts that allude to it are found here, here, and now here. I agree that holding out for marriage has no guarantee. Nothing in life does. But if virtuously waiting for marriage before engaging in sexual relations is characterized as a “punishment” what is the implied alternative?

 

[SuperLuigi]

And yet, it’s very hard for those that don’t have an education and a good income to either marry or stay married, and education is one of the most expensive things there are these days…

That’s what the US marriage statistics suggest, at least.

Statistics can be manipulated and one-dimensional. There is a pattern to that, but it’s more dynamic.

Education is expensive because universities fund programs that don’t lead to high-paying jobs and put in a lot into football and basketball.

 

[MatthewTrainor]

One of the things I’ve been trying to get across on this thread is that I have a lot of reservations about some of the traditional chastity talk that we are all familiar with–if you wait you’ll have an amazing marriage! and amazing sex! and an amazing family!

I agree that making those kinds of promises is completely reckless. That does not mean that chastity is outdated. Instead of “I do X and God is going to give me Y” people should think “I do X and God will give me what I need”

It’s like the Rolling Stones used to say: “You can’t always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need” Oh yeah…

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Matthew, no one is calling you illogical. Many people on this board are familiar with evolutionary psychology. Some of us even lend it a lot of credence. But we’re also saying that it is not the end all be all of psychology, much less humanity. It is one lense through which you can look at the world. Nothing more, nothing less.

Looking back, it seems you went off the deep end when I said that I’m more interested in what’s going on today. Let me clarify, I wasn’t brushing off all of your ideas, I was saying that telling anyone “If you want a good spouse, you need to do XYZ because evolutionary psychology” is just silly. The social, political, and technological realities of today have us living and behaving in ways that are in direct contradiction with how we evolved, so handing out dating advice as though we were still in caves makes 0 sense.

You have this notion that evolutionary psychology provides all the answers, has no grey area, and is uncontroversial in the psychological and scientific communities. None of those things are true, and people are right to strongly question marriage advice built solely on that one perspective.

 

[Xantippe]

Other posts that allude to it are found here, here, and now here. I agree that holding out for marriage has no guarantee. Nothing in life does. But if virtuously waiting for marriage before engaging in sexual relations is characterized as a “punishment” what is the implied alternative?

I didn’t say that waiting itself was a punishment, but that women do get punished for waiting.

Also, as you’ve mentioned several times, women have only so much time to work with. Hence women have much more of a temptation to achieve motherhood while it’s physically possible–with or without a husband.

 

[Xantippe]

Statistics can be manipulated and one-dimensional. There is a pattern to that, but it’s more dynamic.

Education is expensive because universities fund programs that don’t lead to high-paying jobs and put in a lot into football and basketball.

Even a good K-12 district can be very, very expensive, to say nothing of private school. (Our family spends a sum on two private school tuitions greater than our mortgage payment and when our third child goes to school in a couple of years, it will be a sum greater than our mortgage payment plus our hefty TX state property taxes.)

But what about homeschooling? you might say. Well, that’s potentially even more expensive than private school. If a SAHP is home an extra 10-15 years doing homeschooling and the SAHP could make somewhere between $30k and $50K a year if they were working instead, we’re looking at a loss to the family of somewhere between $300k and $750k just for those years.

So, yes, education is expensive, even K-12 education.

 

[MatthewTrainor]

I didn’t say that waiting itself was a punishment, but that women do get punished for waiting.

Also, as you’ve mentioned several times, women have only so much time to work with. Hence women have much more of a temptation to achieve motherhood while it’s physically possible–with or without a husband.

So you agree, for those women interested in motherhood the options are take a chance and hold out for marriage or abandon virtue.

 

[kozlosap]

Fascinating dialogue everyone! My 30 year old daughter hears her ticking clock every minute of the day due to endometriosis. She has a wonderful very serious boyfriend, but they are, at least this year, busy building careers and paying off grad school. I would imagine though, if there’s no ring by Christmas, there will be a huge and sad breakup.

 

[Xantippe]

Fascinating dialogue everyone! My 30 year old daughter hears her ticking clock every minute of the day due to endometriosis. She has a wonderful very serious boyfriend, but they are, at least this year, busy building careers and paying off grad school. I would imagine though, if there’s no ring by Christmas, there will be a huge and sad breakup.

Bummer!

How long have they been dating? If it’s only a year, that might be too fast. But if it’s more than a year at this point, I’m afraid it does make sense.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Fascinating dialogue everyone!

Uh…you must be reading the most recent posts only or a different thread…

My 30 year old daughter hears her ticking clock every minute of the day due to endometriosis. She has a wonderful very serious boyfriend, but they are, at least this year, busy building careers and paying off grad school. I would imagine though, if there’s no ring by Christmas, there will be a huge and sad breakup.