Dating is an Abomination

[OldAgeGuru]

I agree. I’m reading this thread thinking the OP believes you just walk up to someone and say "Hey do you think Ave Maria is a beautiful song? How about saying the Hail Mary? Guy says “yes to both” OP says “Cool! Let’s get married!!!”

As I said in my original post, it’s great to say “hey this is what I want” and then you get it, and it’s nice, but it’s not it You find things out as you get to know someone on a more intimate level. I can tell you in my past dating experiences that: You find out that yes he really is nice to his mom, but my word does he need to cut the cord! or he says yes he is in love with you, but that doesn’t really mean that he isn’t also sleeping with 3 other girls behind your back. Or, he’s a little immature, or that when you can pull him away from playing Quake he’s a good boyfriend, or he isn’t still in love with his ex girlfriend even though he totally is, or he says he wants to marry you and wants you to drop out of college and get a job and support him and have babies right away even though he has a minimum wage part time job, no ambition and no education past high school, and you just turned 19 he also doesn’t want you to hang out with any of your friends anymore because they are all bad influences especially the two guy friends you’ve had that are brothers to you, he also would really like it if you called him all the time and he buys you a pager so that he can’t contact you 24 hours a day and find out what you’re doing. And when you end it with him, he shows up on your doorstep 200 miles away with a knife in his hands threatening to kill you and himself if you don’t get back together with him. (he was the worst one) Or there was the guy who had the wondering eye, or the guy who was nice enough but an angry drunk and always stoned, or the guy who really believed a womans place was to be behind a stove barefoot and pregnant and SILENT, or the guy who was always so lost in studying to be a doctor that you never felt like you ranked in the top 25 of his priorities. Or the guy who decided to tell you he had genital warts and thought you wouldn’t mind he just wanted to let you know for the future. Amongst others and there were others. My God were there others People hide things. They hide them well. My fiance and I are still learning things about each other and we’ve been together going on 5 years. He’s learned I have red hair for a reason. I have a temper, it takes a lot to get me angry but when Im livid, clear out, he’s learned I’m a sucker for a sob story, that I’m neurotic and have moments where I’m needy and moments where if I even think you’re trying to take my independence I will light you up.

When he proposed to me, my dad’s direct quote was finally you found a nice guy who will put up with your S**T! His mom said the same thing. You have to FIND the right person, they don’t just drop in your lap after a couple of laps around the rosary.

I’m glad I dated those guys. Because a) it makes me happy that I’m NOT with those guys and grateful for what I do have and B) I have juicy stories to tell my grandchildren about how I was a hussy and a trollop in my youth.

 

[ack]

I don’t see anything wrong with doing it your way…everything sounds great.

Your perspective seems to differ from Lily’s because Lily is also suggesting that we SHOULD have relationships with people who we know we could NOT marry and have no intention of EVER marrying, because of the valuable experiences that these relationships will bring. This is the point that some of us on this thread object to.

(I think I’m interpreting her position correctly because she keeps using the analogy of a job that you “know you won’t stay at permanently”…)

:clapping:

As a 41 year old craddle Catholic married mother of 2, I am having a really hard time with the entire premis of this post. How do you know you want to “court” someone, if you don’t “date” them first? What are you proposing happens??? And is this something you read about in a book, or did it really lead you to finding your forever husband?

Since I was 12 years old, I have known many guys. Gone out with them to parties, movies, dances, etc… on dates (chasely of course). Then if they passed initial scrutiny (ie became my boyfriend - that is an exclusive relationship), I introduced them to my family. I got their feedback. Continued to date exclusively. As I would get to know the person better, I would find things that didn’t gel, and the relationship would die. Soon another started dating, exclusivity, the person passed more scrutiny, and I decided to court (date with intention to perhaps marry). I even got engaged to 1 guy, and that didn’t work out. And finally I met my now husband, went through dating, boyfriend stage, then courting, then engagement, then marriage. Constant prayer has guided me throughout my entire life, not just in finding a life partner, but in all aspects.

To me this seems like the normal, orderly, logical sequence in acquiring a life partner. Where am I going wrong here?

My son is 11 now, and I’d be interested in your perspective.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t see anything wrong with doing it your way…everything sounds great.

Your perspective seems to differ from Lily’s because Lily is also suggesting that we SHOULD have relationships with people who we know we could NOT marry and have no intention of EVER marrying, because of the valuable experiences that these relationships will bring. This is the point that some of us on this thread object to.

(I think I’m interpreting her position correctly because she keeps using the analogy of a job that you “know you won’t stay at permanently”…)

Well, hmm … that’s not exactly what I was getting at with the analogy, which like all analogies is far from perfect. I’m not advocating dating people that you’re certain are unsuitable for you and that you won’t get anywhere with. Perhaps I am simply advocating a broader range of dating experience and a more holistic and openminded attitude towards the dating process than most people here, is all.

What I would say is that, while ultimately the end goal of the dating process is marriage, you’re shooting yourself in the foot by overanalysing every single person you date, and every single date you go on, as if any relationship or even any date is either improper or a waste of time unless you’re 1000% certain that they’re going to be THE ONE.

Someone who is 16 or 17, for example, isn’t usually thinking of getting hitched straight away, and in most cases SHOULD NOT be thinking of it either. That’s no reason why they can’t be dating, though. And having in the back of their mind marriage as a possibility, at some point in their future, when they and their peers are mature enough to be ready for it.

 

[ecp007]

I don’t see anything wrong with doing it your way…everything sounds great.

Then how is “Dating an Abomination”, and a “replacement for prayer”?

Also, I don’t understand the “Dating is wrong if you know you are never going to marry the person.” Take Prom for instance. I would hope that every high school kid gets to go to Prom, and I doubt that most of them will ever marry each other. Going to Prom is strickly for the “experience” of it. What is wrong with this?
In general, I think it is healthy for high school students to date. However, I think it is rare for people to end up marrying their high school sweet heart.

 

[ack]

I have no idea. If you look again, you’ll see that I’m not the person who started this thread anyway.

Then how is “Dating an Abomination”, and a “replacement for prayer”?

 

[elts1956]

Objection. It is not good to have a pointless romantic relationship (with a pre-agreed ending moment) for the sake of experience alone. I believe that our faculties which are involved in such relationships are not for free use without the proper cause for which they are intended, i.e. marriage. It may be good to some extent to “use them” in finding the right person or seeing if a given person is right, but not for fun, enjoyment or experience.

Chevalier, I don’t think you meant the term “use them” in the para. above, did you? In dating, I think there has to be a mutual attraction. I admit in my younger days, I did date some guys ONCE even if I didn’t feel attracted to them. Usually once was enough for both of us.

In this day, it seems many young people have pointless romantic relationships. And I agree, these relationships are pointless.

Objection on moral grounds. I’ve heard even very wise people telling younger ones to break up with whomever they are, then have new relationships and see what’s next. I disagree, however, with all of that. It is too objectifying and appears to be selfish.

I think agreeing to date others when you are young, even if you do have a “special someone” with whom you feel all those heart stirrings is a healthy attitude. If you happen to drift away from that “special someone”, then to me, that means s/he wasn’t so “special” for YOU. This happens often.

Only so long as dating around does not include kissing around or cuddling around. If it involves going to cafes or dances with many people, then sure, really, so long as there is any sense to it and it isn’t merely experience gathering (what fans of roleplaying games refer to as “exping”). We always ought to remember that the other person is not our tool.

I agree wholeheartedly. .

Not really. Sometimes I just look people in the eye or listen to the pitch of their voice and I know if the deal is good. Sometimes I actually take their word on something.

In dating, this could mean mutual attraction. There is something in that person that wants further investigation.

I would say never, regardless of consent.
I, personally, have never understood how one could have multiple romantic partners. Friends, yes, going to places in a group, okay, but not romantic.

Nope. Meeting and spending time, talking and so on, yes. When it crosses walks and coffees, chess and discussions about the meaning of life (), and begins to include romantic expressions such as kissing, cuddling and others, then no, it should not overlap.

I agree.

Basically, I would say that dating doesn’t need to be exclusive, but things like kissing and cuddling do need to be. Doesn’t include friendly hugs or cheek pecks, obviously. I mean the more romantic and more obvious gesture.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There are an infinite number of possibilites for marraige. If people were willing to open thier hearts and minds, the possibilites are endless. What ever happened to loving your neighbor as yourself?

Again, if there is one and only one person for us to marry, that opens up the can of worms that God is a micro-manager, that we don’t have free will and reeks of pre-destination.

Only if predestination necessitates that which is predestined; & it doesn’t. The BVM was predestined to be the Mother of God - see the Bull of 1854 containing the definition of the Immaculate Conception - but the Divine decree which brought that about (& God’s decrees cannot be thwarted), in no way hindered her freedom. Like just about any other doctrine, predestination can be taken in an erroneous or a true sense.​

God’s Providence is universal; nothing created, however great or slight, is outside it. This includes “the most secret motions of [the] heart”, as is clear from the fact that a prayer saying that has been approved by the Church. If anything were exempt from the universality of Providence, it would be impossible to have the unreserved & total abandonment to God which has been practiced by Saints as well as recommended by authors whose writings the Church has approved.

If all that is so, why should it be incredible or unorthodox to think that God’s Providence governs marriage, & that God foreknows (this is perhaps a better word than “predestines”) who will marry whom ? The only question AFAICS is whether or not all choices of spouses are in fact positively intended by Providence. That these choices, positively intended by God or not, are within the scope of Providence, is certain, For nothing escapes Him, great or small, but all things are entirely subject to Him in every respect. Both Testaments witness to the doctrines of God’s Omniscience & Providence, as well as to Predestination. That we may have difficulties with these things, does not make them false or incoherent or unChristian. They are witnessed to in the Bible, & in the Church’s teaching, & in Christian Tradition. And they tell us a lot about God’s Love.

As for the great number of possibilities - why should they not all be within the scope of Providence ? That they may be impossible for our eyes to track, does not make them so to God. So why should it not be the case that people are predestined or foreknown to marry as they do ? A God Who can predestine a particular woman in a particular time & place to be a mother, can surely with equal ease predestine a few thousand million particular individuals to marry one another.

 

[CountryMom27]

A few quick comments – I think that there is nothing wrong with dating, dating does not imply premarital sex, and I think it’s best to start a marriage on a strong foundation of friendship and committment - how can you become friends without dating?

As for divorce - I think what precipitates divorce (except under acceptable conditions: abuse, drug or alcohol abuse, and adultery) is that people think selfishly, and they forget that they made vows before God. My sister, for one, is Christian but talks about getting divorced frequently because she isn’t happy and her husband doesn’t make it comfortable for her to talk to him. Give me a break!

A marriage is what you put into it, and once you commit before God, you had better have a darned good reason to back out. Particularly once there are children involved. Being unhappy, lonely, or “falling out of love” are no reason to get divorced. They instead are a reason to work on your marriage - even if your spouse doesn’t want to, you control 50% of your marriage.

Please pray for my sister by the way. She is unfortunately clueless.

 

[Writer]

Only if predestination necessitates that which is predestined; & it doesn’t. The BVM was predestined to be the Mother of God - see the Bull of 1854 containing the definition of the Immaculate Conception - but the Divine decree which brought that about (& God’s decrees cannot be thwarted), in no way hindered her freedom. Like just about any other doctrine, predestination can be taken in an erroneous or a true sense.​

God’s Providence is universal; nothing created, however great or slight, is outside it. This includes “the most secret motions of [the] heart”, as is clear from the fact that a prayer saying that has been approved by the Church. If anything were exempt from the universality of Providence, it would be impossible to have the unreserved & total abandonment to God which has been practiced by Saints as well as recommended by authors whose writings the Church has approved.

If all that is so, why should it be incredible or unorthodox to think that God’s Providence governs marriage, & that God foreknows (this is perhaps a better word than “predestines”) who will marry whom ? The only question AFAICS is whether or not all choices of spouses are in fact positively intended by Providence. That these choices, positively intended by God or not, are within the scope of Providence, is certain, For nothing escapes Him, great or small, but all things are entirely subject to Him in every respect. Both Testaments witness to the doctrines of God’s Omniscience & Providence, as well as to Predestination. That we may have difficulties with these things, does not make them false or incoherent or unChristian. They are witnessed to in the Bible, & in the Church’s teaching, & in Christian Tradition. And they tell us a lot about God’s Love.

As for the great number of possibilities - why should they not all be within the scope of Providence ? That they may be impossible for our eyes to track, does not make them so to God. So why should it not be the case that people are predestined or foreknown to marry as they do ? A God Who can predestine a particular woman in a particular time & place to be a mother, can surely with equal ease predestine a few thousand million particular individuals to marry one another.

Enjoyed reading this post, as I have been giving this particular issue some serious thought, as well. If we honor marriage as a lifelong committment between two people and we accept God has foreknowledge of our choices, then there is a sense in which there really is one person out there for us. While this does not imply that the person is necessarily “chosen” or selected for us by God, it leaves that possibility open–perhaps dependent on prayer and care one takes in deciding whom to marry. To say, however, that there are any number of people we might have been happy with, seems to lead us down a hypothetical maze of little value or purpose.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Enjoyed reading this post, as I have been giving this particular issue some serious thought, as well. If we honor marriage as a lifelong committment between two people and we accept God has foreknowledge of our choices, then there is a sense in which there really is one person out there for us. While this does not imply that the person is necessarily “chosen” or selected for us by God, it leaves that possibility open–perhaps dependent on prayer and care one takes in deciding whom to marry. To say, however, that there are any number of people we might have been happy with, seems to lead us down a hypothetical maze of little value or purpose.

Why can’t there may be any number of people you may be happy to settle down with, given the chance?

 

[Sailka]

Not only is dating without the intention of marriage an abomination, but dating with the intention of marriage is also an abomination. Christian Marriage: A Guide for Young People says that “Wide experience in dating is still considered favorable to intelligent mate selection.” (Rev. Thomas E. Langer, M.A., p. 62). I see elsewhere, too, that Catholic single men and women are encouraged to date as a part of the discernment process, and if God calls them to marriage, they are encouraged to date so that they understand how to select a suitable spouse.

Why has dating seemingly replaced prayer

1. 
   *]as a part of the discernment process?
   *]that, if God calls you to marriage, your prospective spouse is indeed the one and only person God has willed for you to marry since the beginning of time?
   
   It seems that dating has become a form of prayer—a way of asking God what His unwavering will is for you. Selecting your life’s vocation should be rooted in prayer with God, the Trinity, Logos; not in all the transient emotions and feelings associated with dating.

1. • A few key points, ignored in above thread: * As Mother Angelica observed so brilliantly years ago, prayer alone does not work. Teen wrote he has been praying for a job forever, but no job yet. Mother Angelica observed have to LOOK for work Too. Ditto looking for spouse, as am. (2) Only way to find good spouse, in addition to prayer, is to friendship only date. Is the ideal way. Just chatting is the key to finding the right person, because minds, thoughts, hopes, dreams, likes, need to compleeement each other (3) And friendship only dating is the key to find the right lifetime match. Is only way to discover The other. (4) The true abomination is focusing on partying, “clubbing”, bars, etc. These are the road to proven destruction of self and others. Almost never do good results follow.
     Prayer and social friendship dating are the key to discover the ideal other half. Neither alone suffices. Vivat Jesu

 

[elts1956]

A few quick comments – I think that there is nothing wrong with dating, dating does not imply premarital sex, and I think it’s best to start a marriage on a strong foundation of friendship and committment - how can you become friends without dating?

As for divorce - I think what precipitates divorce (except under acceptable conditions: abuse, drug or alcohol abuse, and adultery) is that people think selfishly, and they forget that they made vows before God. My sister, for one, is Christian but talks about getting divorced frequently because she isn’t happy and her husband doesn’t make it comfortable for her to talk to him. Give me a break!

A marriage is what you put into it, and once you commit before God, you had better have a darned good reason to back out. Particularly once there are children involved. Being unhappy, lonely, or “falling out of love” are no reason to get divorced. They instead are a reason to work on your marriage - even if your spouse doesn’t want to, you control 50% of your marriage.

Please pray for my sister by the way. She is unfortunately clueless.

I would like to post this little addendum: “All one can do is change his/her OWN attitude (include behavior)” That means one must have a high level of tolerance. Also another quote, “If one cannot be happy this very minute, one will never be happy”.

 

[Writer]

Why can’t there may be any number of people you may be happy to settle down with, given the chance?

I’m not trying to say that this possibility isn’t perhaps true, but I’m pointing out that this kind of hypothetical idea doesn’t seem to offer much in the way of value or purpose. I could just as easily confidently declare that I would have made a darn good commercial pilot or trapeze artist (hopefully not both at the same time), but I don’t see the value of dwelling on what-ifs. I think it’s more important for those of us fortunate and blest to be in a wonderful and committed marriage to focus on the gift God has given us in our spouse, and to realize that there really is a single person “destined” for us. (As mentioned previously,God’s foreknowledge of who our spouse would be does not necessarily suggest an active selection of that person for us.)

For those still searching, I agree that traditional dating is a great way of getting know the prospective spouse. I guess you could call it prayerful dating. Maybe it sounds a little odd, but something I did as a young person was to pray for the person (known only to God at that time) that I would one day marry. That helped me a bit in keeping things in their proper perspective.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I’m not trying to say that this possibility isn’t perhaps true, but I’m pointing out that this kind of hypothetical idea doesn’t seem to offer much in the way of value or purpose. I could just as easily confidently declare that I would have made a darn good commercial pilot or trapeze artist (hopefully not both at the same time), but I don’t see the value of dwelling on what-ifs. I think it’s more important for those of us fortunate and blest to be in a wonderful and committed marriage to focus on the gift God has given us in our spouse, and to realize that there really is a single person “destined” for us. (As mentioned previously,God’s foreknowledge of who our spouse would be does not necessarily suggest an active selection of that person for us.)

Dwelling in what-ifs can be unhealthy.

However, one can be have an open heart, and see where that leads.

For those still searching, I agree that traditional dating is a great way of getting know the prospective spouse. I guess you could call it prayerful dating. Maybe it sounds a little odd, but something I did as a young person was to pray for the person (known only to God at that time) that I would one day marry. That helped me a bit in keeping things in their proper perspective.

I agree with this. It takes a bit of prayer and hard work to find someone.

 

[elts1956]

I’m not trying to say that this possibility isn’t perhaps true, but I’m pointing out that this kind of hypothetical idea doesn’t seem to offer much in the way of value or purpose. I could just as easily confidently declare that I would have made a darn good commercial pilot or trapeze artist (hopefully not both at the same time), but I don’t see the value of dwelling on what-ifs. I think it’s more important for those of us fortunate and blest to be in a wonderful and committed marriage to focus on the gift God has given us in our spouse, and to realize that there really is a single person “destined” for us. (As mentioned previously,God’s foreknowledge of who our spouse would be does not necessarily suggest an active selection of that person for us.)

For those still searching, I agree that traditional dating is a great way of getting know the prospective spouse. I guess you could call it prayerful dating. Maybe it sounds a little odd, but something I did as a young person was to pray for the person (known only to God at that time) that I would one day marry. That helped me a bit in keeping things in their proper perspective.

Haven’t read all your posts. Did you find him/her?

 

[elts1956]

I’m not trying to say that this possibility isn’t perhaps true, but I’m pointing out that this kind of hypothetical idea doesn’t seem to offer much in the way of value or purpose. I could just as easily confidently declare that I would have made a darn good commercial pilot or trapeze artist (hopefully not both at the same time), but I don’t see the value of dwelling on what-ifs. I think it’s more important for those of us fortunate and blest to be in a wonderful and committed marriage to focus on the gift God has given us in our spouse, and to realize that there really is a single person “destined” for us. (As mentioned previously,God’s foreknowledge of who our spouse would be does not necessarily suggest an active selection of that person for us.)

For those still searching, I agree that traditional dating is a great way of getting know the prospective spouse. I guess you could call it prayerful dating. Maybe it sounds a little odd, but something I did as a young person was to pray for the person (known only to God at that time) that I would one day marry. That helped me a bit in keeping things in their proper perspective.

Enjoyed reading this post, as I have been giving this particular issue some serious thought, as well. If we honor marriage as a lifelong committment between two people and we accept God has foreknowledge of our choices, then there is a sense in which there really is one person out there for us. While this does not imply that the person is necessarily “chosen” or selected for us by God, it leaves that possibility open–perhaps dependent on prayer and care one takes in deciding whom to marry. To say, however, that there are any number of people we might have been happy with, seems to lead us down a hypothetical maze of little value or purpose.

So do you mean to say each of us married folk were “predestined” to marry who we married? Are you talking the proverbial “soulmate”? One in a billion.

 

[elts1956]

I would like to post this little addendum: “All one can do is change his/her OWN attitude (include behavior)” That means one must have a high level of tolerance. Also another quote, “If one cannot be happy this very minute, one will never be happy”.

Another add on. “The person you are in a relationship/marriage with says as much about you as the other person”.

 

[elts1956]

I would like to post this little addendum: “All one can do is change his/her OWN attitude (include behavior)” That means one must have a high level of tolerance. Also another quote, “If one cannot be happy this very minute, one will never be happy”.

A few quick comments – I think that there is nothing wrong with dating, dating does not imply premarital sex, and I think it’s best to start a marriage on a strong foundation of friendship and committment - how can you become friends without dating?

As for divorce - I think what precipitates divorce (except under acceptable conditions: abuse, drug or alcohol abuse, and adultery) is that people think selfishly, and they forget that they made vows before God. My sister, for one, is Christian but talks about getting divorced frequently because she isn’t happy and her husband doesn’t make it comfortable for her to talk to him. Give me a break!

A marriage is what you put into it, and once you commit before God, you had better have a darned good reason to back out. Particularly once there are children involved. Being unhappy, lonely, or “falling out of love” are no reason to get divorced. They instead are a reason to work on your marriage - even if your spouse doesn’t want to, you control 50% of your marriage.

Please pray for my sister by the way. She is unfortunately clueless.

Another add on. “Who you are in a relationship/marriage with says as much about you as it does the other person”.

 

[Sierrah]

I’ve pretty much given up on dating. It’s not as if I have any oportunities anyway… Guys for one reason or another don’t tend to look my way or if they do they aren’t the type I want to date. Long old boring story. So I’ve held up my hands and said goodbye to it all. It bums me out to do so but I’ve never had much fun with the limited dated I’ve engaged in. After so many wrong types one comes to a point where it’s just not worth the bother. Being alone is hard and takes daily strength sometimes but it’s better then misery in a bad relationship. I don’t like the dating world today anyhow. It’s very superficial. If any guy did want to date me he’d have to be pretty special and put in some effort to get my attention but with my track record there’s nill chance of that happening. I’ll leave the dating world to all those out for what they can get types.

 

[Geremia]

Only if predestination necessitates that which is predestined; & it doesn’t. The BVM was predestined to be the Mother of God - see the Bull of 1854 containing the definition of the Immaculate Conception - but the Divine decree which brought that about (& God’s decrees cannot be thwarted), in no way hindered her freedom. Like just about any other doctrine, predestination can be taken in an erroneous or a true sense.​

God’s Providence is universal; nothing created, however great or slight, is outside it. This includes “the most secret motions of [the] heart”, as is clear from the fact that a prayer saying that has been approved by the Church. If anything were exempt from the universality of Providence, it would be impossible to have the unreserved & total abandonment to God which has been practiced by Saints as well as recommended by authors whose writings the Church has approved.

If all that is so, why should it be incredible or unorthodox to think that God’s Providence governs marriage, & that God foreknows (this is perhaps a better word than “predestines”) who will marry whom ? The only question AFAICS is whether or not all choices of spouses are in fact positively intended by Providence. That these choices, positively intended by God or not, are within the scope of Providence, is certain, For nothing escapes Him, great or small, but all things are entirely subject to Him in every respect. Both Testaments witness to the doctrines of God’s Omniscience & Providence, as well as to Predestination. That we may have difficulties with these things, does not make them false or incoherent or unChristian. They are witnessed to in the Bible, & in the Church’s teaching, & in Christian Tradition. And they tell us a lot about God’s Love.

As for the great number of possibilities - why should they not all be within the scope of Providence ? That they may be impossible for our eyes to track, does not make them so to God. So why should it not be the case that people are predestined or foreknown to marry as they do ? A God Who can predestine a particular woman in a particular time & place to be a mother, can surely with equal ease predestine a few thousand million particular individuals to marry one another.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding St. Thomas Aquinas when he says that God’s will is always fulfilled. See this section of the Summa.