Dating is an Abomination

[Dtmccameron]

You know, joy is the one emotion Satan cannot duplicate.

Despair is his dominion, though.

I’d like to believe the God Who created birdsong, newborn babies, fuzzy puppies and flowers and put us in the middle of that world wanted us to enjoy it every now and then.

But don’t you see? This world, so wonderfully made, can be so beautiful as to draw us away from God instead of bringing us closer to Him! Some cling to this world and worldly things, some are unwilling to give it all up for God, to sacrifice everyting for Him!

Where should our joy be save in Heaven? In whom should we find it save in He? Should not our hearts be so set on Him that we’ve no room for this world?

(Alak! Mine Puritainism is showing…)

Still, I think, if we be happy around good things, and, all that He made He made good, did He not? I think, if we be happy around these things, nd if they bring us joy, we should remember that our joy flows from seeing His handiwork, and from closeness to Him, not in the things themselves.

Meaning to say, only so far in that anything is sacramental should we treasure it. How’s that sound?

Seems to me the only sensible worth of a thing, don’tcha think?

Wow. Are you sure you’re not a Baptist?

Well, I for one am glad I don’t live near you. Must be weird, all those vultures circling overhead all the time.

You don’t like vultures? Beautiful animals, and you can lay out on the ground and they’ll fly down for a closer look, sometimes even landing and creeping near you, thinking you a corpse. Some date for fun, so fool with carrion birds…

 

[Mommyoftwo]

So much for being “Alleluia People”

 

[Catholic90]

Umm, No.

Where’d you get *that *idea?

Give me the Bible verse that says He does? Go! Find it. Right now.

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Uh huh! You can’t do it, can you? Because never once does He say, “And I’ve made this world for the enjoyment of men” or “I want you to be happy, that’s why I died for you.”

No, you’re not gonna find anything like that. This life, this world, these things… were all made by Him, for Him, and for His pleasure. An obedient and happy servant, that’s what we’re to be.

But to vainly “live it up”? Wasting every waking moment of our lives towards such frivilous ends as “fun”?

Further, who could have fun, knowing, at this very second, children are being slaughtered, women raped, families destroyed? And at this second? And this one? And this one?

It’s a great time for a night on the town, ah! You can even smell the bodies burning in the night air! Mmmm! How romantic! And see? The legions of Hell blot out the light of the sun?

Thank goodness for the shade!

Yeah…Wow…You must be one fun, enjoyable person to be around…

So if God did not want me to enjoy those vibrant, fragrant rose blooms right outside my door, why did he give me a nose to smell them and eyes to view them?
If God did not want to me enjoy a well sung song or a brilliantly played piece of music, then why did he give me ears to hear?
If God did not want me to joyously hear my baby’s first babble, coo, and 'lub you mommy", why did he give me ears?
If God did not want to enjoy the soft fur of my cats as they fight for my lap space, all the while purring loudly, why did he give me the sense of feeling and of hearing?

So, I can focus on the GOOD things, or I can focus on the sorrowful.

My goodness, even in the rosary, there are the JOYFUL mysteries!!

Marriage is difficult enough married to someone you DO get along with, have fun with, and enjoy. I cannot imagine being married to someone simply because I “courted” this one person and can “tolerate” him.

 

[Dtmccameron]

Yeah…Wow…You must be one fun, enjoyable person to be around…

So if God did not want me to enjoy… why did he give me …

So, I can focus on the GOOD things, or I can focus on the sorrowful.

My goodness, even in the rosary, there are the JOYFUL mysteries!!

Marriage is difficult enough married to someone you DO get along with, have fun with, and enjoy. I cannot imagine being married to someone simply because I “courted” this one person and can “tolerate” him.

Besides lovely things, the senses can be used to pick up on practical things. Such as, “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire” “Ouch! That’s hot!” “This tastes like almonds” “That plant makes me feel itchy”. Stuff like that. Anyhow, I adressed my Dualistic sounding first post in my second. Sorry about the confusion. And heresy/

And since death comes soon enough, and there’s no marriage beyond that, looking for anyone more than a helpmeet might just be a waste of time. What, praytell, is the point of the marital embrace and spiritual whatsit when it’ll all be over in fifty short years?

My thinking? It provides the necessary environment to raise a child, the embodiment of their fleshy union.

Further, we’re two people ***true *Christians, Ithink they’d get along fine no matter what; what with living selflessly, lovingly, etc, etc…

 

[srlucado]

My thinking? It provides the necessary environment to raise a child, the embodiment of their fleshy union.

Your thinking? I’ve seen a lot of words, but precious little evidence of thinking.

If you want to slither around in a gray little vacuum of a world, go ahead, but I’ll have no part of it. Self-pity can make for some tolerable moments, but it’s worthless as a lifestyle.

Instead, I’ve got to go off and have some fun now. Lots of fun. Gonna search for the purple banana till they put me in a truck. (Better live now, before the Grim Reaper come knockin’ on your door.)

Go ahead–resent me, curse me; envy me; I don’t care. I know why I’m on earth, and it’s not to listen to despondents like you.

 

[Geremia]

I would really like to see a saint’s or Biblical writing that says one should “play the field” before marrying. Where are all the saints’ writings on dating and courtship? What does the Magisterial of the Church say on “playing the field,” i.e., dating, as it is commonly interpreted: to “go out with (someone in whom one is romantically or sexually interested)” (Oxford English Dictionary).

 

[Catholic90]

And since death comes soon enough, and there’s no marriage beyond that, looking for anyone more than a helpmeet might just be a waste of time. What, praytell, is the point of the marital embrace and spiritual whatsit when it’ll all be over in fifty short years?

So you are thinking you should ENDURE life then?

My thinking? It provides the necessary environment to raise a child, the embodiment of their fleshy union.

What about those couples who do not have children? Or even those who do? What if they do not really like each other?

Further, we’re two people ***true ***Christians, Ithink they’d get along fine no matter what; what with living selflessly, lovingly, etc, etc…

Uh, sure, you are not married, are you?

Marriage is difficult enough with a person one truly loves and falls in love with. It is 100 fold more difficult with someone you tolerate. Many, MANY “true Christians” get divorced every year. “true Catholics” do as well.

“you think” - I don’t believe you’ve thought this through realistically.

 

[Catholic90]

I would really like to see a saint’s or Biblical writing that says one should “play the field” before marrying. Where are all the saints’ writings on dating and courtship? What does the Magisterial of the Church say on “playing the field,” i.e., dating, as it is commonly interpreted: to “go out with (someone in whom one is romantically or sexually interested)” (Oxford English Dictionary).

Not everything we do in life is defined by a “how to manual” found in the Bible or in Magisterial writings! Some of it is common sense!

Also, dating is not always “playing the field”. Dating is simply being good friends with, usually on a deeper level, with someone of the opposite sex.

Why are you so afraid of it?

 

[Dtmccameron]

And since death comes soon enough, and there’s no marriage beyond that, looking for anyone more than a helpmeet might just be a waste of time. What, praytell, is the point of the marital embrace and spiritual whatsit when it’ll all be over in fifty short years?

So you are thinking you should ENDURE life then?

The alternative being what, pray tell? Suicide?

My thinking? It provides the necessary environment to raise a child, the embodiment of their fleshy union.

What about those couples who do not have children? Or even those who do? What if they do not really like each other?

Yes, what about them? My point being that the wedded couple, a husband and a wife, make the ideal sort of…environment to raise a child.

Further, we’re two people true Christians, Ithink they’d get along fine no matter what; what with living selflessly, lovingly, etc, etc…

Uh, sure, you are not married, are you?

Marriage is difficult enough with a person one truly loves and falls in love with. It is 100 fold more difficult with someone you tolerate. Many, MANY “true Christians” get divorced every year. “true Catholics” do as well.

When you say “100 times more difficult with someone you tolerate” I trust you mean, “someone you just tolerate”? As in, “someone you do not love nor are fond of?”

Surely you’re failing in your Christian duty if you do not love the other person?

I suppose I hold “true Christians” to a higher standard than most. I’m talking Saints here, Too much humility, too much selflessness to …drive people apart.

“you think” - I don’t believe you’ve thought this through realistically.

I’ve been called on that twice now. Let’s say my problem lies in the adverb, eh?
Sorry if I didn’t match your shade of blue!

srlucado, I’m, ah, not quite certain I understand.

 

[chevalier]

Another thing is that dating is a modern invention.

It has rightfully been pointed out that so are antibiotics. That alone is not a negative trait.

It has as its goal finding the most compatible partner;

Which isn’t a bad goal of itself. What’s more, it’s quite wise.

courtship is finding that person who God has willed one to marry.

Objection, that’s hardly a fact.

The difference between dating and “courtship” concerns the process. How does attending chaperoned family dinners over “dinner and movie” dates make the difference between looking for compatibility and looking to follow God’s will?

Why should we Catholics date when so many billions of Catholics in the past never did?

Antibiotics answer that question again.

Marriage ultimately comes down to a decision based on faith, not how well you “played the field,” searching for evidence to justify marrying a particular person.

True. I strongly dislike the idea that “experience” should be prerequisite. It makes me think of, “I don’t date virgins.”

Now let me put some flak on the other side of the discussion:

How about the opinion that dating can be fun?

“Fun” is not a source of entitlement. The right to pursue happiness exists. There might be some right to happiness itself. But that’s not a right to do as we please and whatever brings us the most serotonin.

Dating is for the purpose of finding a spouse and fun is incidental to it. Just as the primary purpose of sex is not fun, either, as nice as it is that fun is there.

Don’t you think God wants us to enjoy life every now and then?

He does but never at the cost of reducing another person to a tool, an object, a means.

Dating for fun alone reduces another person to a source of serotonin.

What’s more, looking for fun is never any justification for suspending a moral rule of any kind any way.

Thus, while it’s fine to buy drinks to random ladies while attending to a pleasant conversation, it is not fine to play spin the bottle at a party. Everyone knows why. By extension this excludes dating for fun, which is a less striking example of the same.

It can be just plain fun to spend time with a person of the opposite sex.

Spending time with a person of the opposite sex does not necessarily need to involve lip exercise.

It doesn’t have to be fraught with sexual dangers; it can just be social.

I’d like to hear the definition of social…

My personal experience is that it’s better to become friends with someone and see what develops from there, rather than look at someone and immediately submit her to an inquisition to determine whether she is marriage material or not.

True.

(I had women run me through that kind of gantlet, and I’d be out of there in a nanosecond.)

So would I.

Thus in my view, both sides are right on some points and both are wrong on some others. To offer some synthesis, I’d say that social customs are not set in stone and they don’t necessarily carry moral relevance. On the other hand, lessez-faire is not quite a principle of moral theology or even sound moral philosophy, as we need to accord the other person the same consideration we accord to ourselves, given equal dignity. Mutual consent or mutual infringement does not lift the obligation. And therefore personal interaction in a tender field cannot be reduced to a source of fun, as even when having fun, we owe respect, consideration and in fact even some sort of reverence.

 

[CTA1967]

Why should we Catholics date when so many billions of Catholics in the past never did?

Better question: Why should we Catholics indoctrinate others through an internet forum (and in the process, bump a thread from nearly a year ago) when so many billions of Catholics in the past never did?

 

[Catholic90]

Quote:
And since death comes soon enough, and there’s no marriage beyond that, looking for anyone more than a helpmeet might just be a waste of time. What, praytell, is the point of the marital embrace and spiritual whatsit when it’ll all be over in fifty short years?

So you are thinking you should ENDURE life then?
The alternative being what, pray tell? Suicide?
Suicide?? How about some JOY, some FUN, some ENJOYMENT?

Quote:
My thinking? It provides the necessary environment to raise a child, the embodiment of their fleshy union.

What about those couples who do not have children? Or even those who do? What if they do not really like each other?
Yes, what about them? My point being that the wedded couple, a husband and a wife, make the ideal sort of…environment to raise a child.
You totally missed my point. Of COURSE a wedded couple is the ideal environment in which to raise a child. However, if you wedded someone for the sole purpose of having a child and you discover you are unable to have a child, you are in a marriage with someone you can ‘put up with’ and ‘love’, but not 'in love with".
Quote:
Further, we’re two people true Christians, Ithink they’d get along fine no matter what; what with living selflessly, lovingly, etc, etc…

Uh, sure, you are not married, are you?

Marriage is difficult enough with a person one truly loves and falls in love with. It is 100 fold more difficult with someone you tolerate. Many, MANY “true Christians” get divorced every year. “true Catholics” do as well.
When you say “100 times more difficult with someone you tolerate” I trust you mean, “someone you just tolerate”? As in, “someone you do not love nor are fond of?”
No, I meant someone you fell in love with, love, and tolerate. Relationships go through cycles. I fell in love with my husband, and I love him everyday. However, there are days where I do not like him very much. However, we work through it, and the cycle begins again. Imagine how much more difficult this would be if I had never been “in love with” him in the first place. Being “in love” and “loving” someone are 2 completely different things.

Surely you’re failing in your Christian duty if you do not love the other person?

As I just said, there is a huge difference between LOVING someone and BEING IN LOVE with someone. If you don’t know, then you have never been IN LOVE.

I suppose I hold “true Christians” to a higher standard than most. I’m talking Saints here, Too much humility, too much selflessness to …drive people apart.

Quote:
“you think” - I don’t believe you’ve thought this through realistically.

Well, good luck with that.

 

[whatevergirl]

Back in the ‘old’ days, people dated…they most certainly did. I think the definition of dating has changed over the years. But my MIL who is now 87, went to dances and such with my FIL, who passed away years ago. My mom and dad did the same thing. Nothing wrong with going out for dinner or a movie with someone from the opposite sex. It’s when we look at dating as a hobby, instead of a path that leads us to our spouse, where we can fall into trouble. But, it’s not against Catholic teaching to go out for dinner, lunch, golf, tennis, whatever with someone from the opposite sex, and allow that relationship to unfold to see if it has marriage potential. I wouldn’t want to have an arranged marriage, where I wouldn’t have a clue about who my spouse was, or what he was about. There is a happy medium in there somewhere.

 

[Catholic90]

chevalier;5257653 "Fun" is not a source of entitlement. The right to pursue happiness exists. There might be some right to happiness itself. But that's not a right to do as we please and whatever brings us the most serotonin.:

Of course we ‘can’t do as we please’, but pursuing happiness can involve fun!

Dating is for the purpose of finding a spouse and fun is incidental to it. Just as the primary purpose of sex is not fun, either, as nice as it is that fun is there.

My son is dating. He is trying to discern what qualities he likes and dislikes in people - personality-wise. He has had fun movies and dinners with some girls, and with others, he’s been home within 45 minutes!

He does but never at the cost of reducing another person to a tool, an object, a means.

of course.

Dating for fun alone reduces another person to a source of serotonin. My son is 17 - he is not looking to get married soon, but he IS having fun going to movies, cooking dinners, playing video games, sitting by bonfires, and just talking with various girls.

What’s more, looking for fun is never any justification for suspending a moral rule of any kind any way. of course not.

Thus, while it’s fine to buy drinks to random ladies while attending to a pleasant conversation, it is not fine to play spin the bottle at a party. Everyone knows why. By extension this excludes dating for fun, which is a less striking example of the same.

Again, depends on the age…my 17 year old son is dating girls and having fun, all in a moral, chaste way. He is not looking to be married anytime soon! He simply enjoys the company of the females.

Spending time with a person of the opposite sex does not necessarily need to involve lip exercise.

Agreed. But if it does involve a good night kiss, it is also not the end of the world!

.

 

[Catholic90]

Back in the ‘old’ days, people dated…they most certainly did. I think the definition of dating has changed over the years. But my MIL who is now 87, went to dances and such with my FIL, who passed away years ago. My mom and dad did the same thing. Nothing wrong with going out for dinner or a movie with someone from the opposite sex. It’s when we look at dating as a hobby, instead of a path that leads us to our spouse, where we can fall into trouble. But, it’s not against Catholic teaching to go out for dinner, lunch, golf, tennis, whatever with someone from the opposite sex, and allow that relationship to unfold to see if it has marriage potential. I wouldn’t want to have an arranged marriage, where I wouldn’t have a clue about who my spouse was, or what he was about. There is a happy medium in there somewhere.

Thinking back on this, my grandparents dated also. My maternal grandma died 30 years ago at the age of 80. She, from the stories I had heard, was quite the socialite. She would go to dances and parties and out for rides with various men. She was always very proper, though. She dated many men, but was then married to only man for about 40 years until he died.

Arranged marriages…no way.
Marrying the first person you see? No way.

 

[Geremia]

Better question: Why should we Catholics indoctrinate others through an internet forum (and in the process, bump a thread from nearly a year ago) when so many billions of Catholics in the past never did?

I wonder what it is, then, that keeps this thread alive. I never expected that my posting to such an old thread would revive it again with a handful of others’ posts.

 

[Geremia]

Another question is: Does the Church have anything to say about how people should court before marrying? Should it be like in the bible or was that form of courtship bound to that particular culture?

 

[CTA1967]

I wonder what it is, then, that keeps this thread alive. I never expected that my posting to such an old thread would revive it again with a handful of others’ posts.

Well, I imagine plenty of people have something to say about the thread title, “Dating is an Abomination”. I agree there are aspects of modern dating that I dislike, but I don’t think it’s fair to generalize all dating as an “abomination.” If you really are really trying to find your future spouse, and aren’t just doing it for fun, I don’t see what’s wrong with dating.

 

[chevalier]

My son is 17 - he is not looking to get married soon, but he IS having fun going to movies, cooking dinners, playing video games, sitting by bonfires, and just talking with various girls.

Sounds like something I should do more often.

Agreed. But if it does involve a good night kiss, it is also not the end of the world!

Not every bad thing is the end of the world. I don’t want to complain about one teenager pecking another, but I dislike the belief that it’s fine to get some kissing at rather random. Done by a teenager, it’s probably more innocent than mere thoughts adults sometimes have, but say, if we dealt with an adult, I would expect more causal thinking and somehow then, it would feel out of order. Especially on some non-exclusive non-committed basis. Then again, people who do that obliviously are probably very innocent, just naive. Except those indoctrinated, who see things from the point of view of getting some quality fun for one’s time, kinda entitlement.

 

[Schnitz]

I recently read a very interesting article linked to below which I found to be very interesting. It talks about the differences between dating and courting, as well as the pitfalls of dating, which is what I think that the OP was attempting to refer to. I have also decided to include a few other articles relating to this issue.

The Great Sacrament: Holy Matrimony
Holy Matrimony: Choosing a Partner
Courtship: The Chaste Preparation for Holy Matrimony (this is the article I was referencing above)
The Way of a Man with a Maiden (on Courtship)

Enjoy!