Dating someone with secular views on sex

[blueshells]

Hi all,

I’ve been dating a lovely man for a few months now, and we’re moving towards entering a relationship. Aside from all the interests and hobbies we have in common, he’s kind, gentle, generous, and (so far) hasn’t done anything to push my boundaries.

However, I have some reservations (and I’m not even sure if they should be, hence why I’m here!). We met from an online website, and so I know a bit about his views that we haven’t really discussed yet. He definitely has more secular opinions on contraception, pornography, and masturbation. What are some ways I can handle these conversations when they come up? We’ve been to Mass together several times, so there’s a base to start from, but the men I’ve previously been in relationships with have been more in line with the Church on these. I know I shouldn’t date someone with the intent to change them, but I also wouldn’t have had a deep conversion if I hadn’t dated someone who was willing to teach me.

Thanks!
~blue

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hi all,

I’ve been dating a lovely man for a few months now, and we’re moving towards entering a relationship. Aside from all the interests and hobbies we have in common, he’s kind, gentle, generous, and (so far) hasn’t done anything to push my boundaries.

However, I have some reservations (and I’m not even sure if they should be, hence why I’m here!). We met from an online website, and so I know a bit about his views that we haven’t really discussed yet. He definitely has more secular opinions on contraception, pornography, and masturbation. What are some ways I can handle these conversations when they come up? We’ve been to Mass together several times, so there’s a base to start from, but the men I’ve previously been in relationships with have been more in line with the Church on these. I know I shouldn’t date someone with the intent to change them, but I also wouldn’t have had a deep conversion if I hadn’t dated someone who was willing to teach me.

Thanks!
~blue

A good woman and future wife and mother should RUN from a man who has “secular” views on the subjects you mention.

 

[1ke]

However, I have some reservations (and I’m not even sure if they should be, hence why I’m here!).

Yes, the DEFINTELY should be. Pornography, masturbation, and contraception are all intrinsically evil and harmful. Porn is especially harmful to marriages. These are very central to whether to pursue a relationship or not.

We met from an online website, and so I know a bit about his views that we haven’t really discussed yet. He definitely has more secular opinions on contraception, pornography, and masturbation. What are some ways I can handle these conversations when they come up?

If you believe you are headed towards a “relationship” you should not wait for them to “come up”, you should bring them up. Don’t give your heart and then find yourself hoping and wishing he would change.

There’s nothing wrong with discerning deal breakers. Actually, it’s the purpose of dating.

We’ve been to Mass together several times, so there’s a base to start from, but the men I’ve previously been in relationships with have been more in line with the Church on these.

Don’t try to candy coat it. “More in line”… what does that mean? You watch porn or you don’t. You think sins against the sixth commandment are serious, or you don’t.

I know I shouldn’t date someone with the intent to change them, but I also wouldn’t have had a deep conversion if I hadn’t dated someone who was willing to teach me.

Correct, do not move forward with the intent to change someone.

As for teaching him, does he even want to be taught? Does he view you as a teacher, as someone with whom he wants to explore the faith? Or, are you just assuming a “teacher” role-- perhaps he would be insulted that you even think he *needs *teaching.

I know the urge to just “not” bring it up and ignore it, and to enjoy the relationship and all it’s possibilities and the good feeling of someone going to mass with you, the anticipation of them calling, the thrill of a new beau.

But really, don’t waste your time or his. I think there are a number of ways you can bring it up-- ideally there would be a Catholic event you could go to… a talk or bible study or Lenten series or Theology on Tap… that touches on these issues… that you could go to together and then discuss.

But if not, you are just going to have to say “so, on your profile I noticed…” Because frankly if that is actually ON his profile and you said “yes” to dating him, then he may be under the impression that you are OK with his views or at least willing to compromise.

 

[jmjZelie]

Let’s see…

Contraception: mortal sin
Pornography: mortal sin
Masturbation: mortal sin

Secular society encourages, and sometimes even imposes, celebration of and participation in these things. You know already that the man you are dating espouses views similar to that of secular society. What to do?

Walk away now before you get hurt.

 

[tawny]

A good woman and future wife and mother should RUN from a man who has “secular” views on the subjects you mention.

 

[Shea96]

I’m going to go against the grain here, but first: is he Catholic? Do you know if he understands these things to be grave sins? I think that you simply cannot wait around to get this conversation going. You have to know these things STAT. And determine if he is willing to come to an understanding and acceptance of these things as being intrinsically evil.

Depending on his other qualities, I wouldn’t necessarily say run away just yet. However, I would run away as fast as you can if his attitude toward growing towards an ordered attitude/understanding toward these things is defensive, dismissive, or indignant.

This is going to sound crazy, but I am a cradle Catholic who did not know any of these things were a mortal sin!!! My attitude was secular. My actions were secular. As I learned God’s will, God’s word, the Church’s teachings, etc. I became horrified at the things of my past. We often say we do not want to change someone. But, in the case of faith, we should constantly be growing and changing together. No, you don’t want to marry a man who hates to dance and then expect him to go excitedly to Ballroom dancing class with you every Friday night. Or marry a man who lives to fish, and then tell him it is disgusting and that if he loved you, he’d stop fishing. That is entirely different. But to change in faith, in attitude, in acceptance of God’s will for us, to grow in understanding and resignation, all that is positive change. And to date a man who is willing to learn, communicate, and grow with you in your faith journey, is, IMO is a good man.

 

[edwest2]

Just a suggestion. Since I can’t really get to know either of you online, I’ll start by saying his secular views on those things are red flags. However, I suggest you find the words and just be open and honest. This may or may not be a teaching moment, but also ask God for guidance. I’m not saying you are expecting him to change but find out where he stands. I’m sure you would see the cues during the discussion regarding which way it’s going, and he may be willing to listen. If not, just make sure he understood you.

It seems to me that hearing ‘no,’ or ‘I can’t agree with that’ are not what many people want to hear, but better sooner than later. For what it’s worth, I was in a relationship where we really got along but a few ‘deal breakers’ came up and the relationship ended, though not in a bad/unfriendly way.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Lou2U]

If you believe you are headed towards a “relationship” you should not wait for them to “come up”, you should bring them up. Don’t give your heart and then find yourself hoping and wishing he would change.

This. Don’t spend your time hurting yourself by entering into a relationship where you don’t agree. A man can have all the good qualities in the world, but a deal breaker is a deal breaker. I know I would not be comfortable in any relationship where a man would watch porn - do you really think you would feel any different?

Lou

 

[SuperLuigi]

Hi all,

I’ve been dating a lovely man for a few months now, and we’re moving towards entering a relationship. Aside from all the interests and hobbies we have in common, he’s kind, gentle, generous, and (so far) hasn’t done anything to push my boundaries.

However, I have some reservations (and I’m not even sure if they should be, hence why I’m here!). We met from an online website, and so I know a bit about his views that we haven’t really discussed yet. He definitely has more secular opinions on contraception, pornography, and masturbation. What are some ways I can handle these conversations when they come up? We’ve been to Mass together several times, so there’s a base to start from, but the men I’ve previously been in relationships with have been more in line with the Church on these. I know I shouldn’t date someone with the intent to change them, but I also wouldn’t have had a deep conversion if I hadn’t dated someone who was willing to teach me.

Thanks!
~blue

Here’s what these situations come down to:

1. There are Catholics who are strident, strong in the Faith and are the types of folks who get their partners/spouses to convert.
2. Then there are Catholics who are not and are more influenced by their partners, even to the point of where they become enablers and excuse-makers.

If you’re in the latter category, like I tend to be, you will really want to think this over.

It’s been taught that dating for Catholics should be for the purpose of marriage. While I have dated non-Catholic women before, I am glad those relationships did not work out because I probably would be going to Church by myself and would get no help if not push back on raising the kids Catholic.

So. I stuck to dating Catholic women exclusively.

I am also concerned that the man in this relationship is more secular, because men can be much overpowering than women in relationships regardless of pro-feminine strength seen in the media and regarding feminism.

So I think at the very least you have to be careful and if you find yourself wavering on Catholic teaching, that’s your cue to leave.

And I agree with other advice that simply being “nice” is nowhere close to being enough. Even abusive/lying/cheating/scamming partners are nice and may share some interests.

 

[SuperLuigi]

But if not, you are just going to have to say “so, on your profile I noticed…” Because frankly if that is actually ON his profile and you said “yes” to dating him, then he may be under the impression that you are OK with his views or at least willing to compromise.

This is great advice. That seems to be the secular solution as well: compromise. It’s simple and perhaps seen as easy

Well, Catholics aren’t allowed to compromise on certain things and still be Faithful members of the Church.

 

[blueshells]

Thank you all for the responses.

I see enough good in him right now that I’m not quite willing to cut and run yet. Obviously, depending on his reaction to the discussions, I’ll make a decision based on that–we’ve just passed the point where we’ve been getting to know each other and trying to figure out if we want to meet again, and now we’re to the point where we’re planning a few dates out. Honestly, I thought he’d find me too nerdy or something and we wouldn’t get that far. But I am really eager now to have these conversations, I’m just hoping for advice for approaching them and arguing my points. From my experience with female friends of mine, these tend to go better once some kind of relationship and trust has been established.

He’s a cradle Catholic, but he’s just starting to explore his faith a little more deeply because he’s confused by mine: he’s surprised by my prayer life and my choice of (very strong practicing Catholic) friends. It sounds like his family is fairly lukewarm, and he hasn’t ever been in an environment where faith was valued and prioritized; I was fortunate enough to have a really awesome, supportive Catholic social group in college that gave me great formation, and I can’t imagine trying to navigate the secular world and hold to Catholic teaching without that.

One of the things I most admire about him is his desire for self-discipline and other virtues (like growth in generosity of the heart, etc.) and his desire to understand how and why things work, which he just hasn’t applied to his faith and which I hope dispose him to be open to learning more. I think he truly doesn’t realize how harmful these things are, or why the Church teaches against them.

If he’s not open to learning, I have no problem ending things–I did that back in November with a man with whom I didn’t even need to have the conversations. I know that as faithful Catholics we have an obligation not to compromise but we also have an obligation to share our faith and revitalize members of the Body who are struggling; the latter is what I’m asking for help on.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Here’s what these situations come down to:

1. There are Catholics who are strident, strong in the Faith and are the types of folks who get their partners/spouses to convert.
2. Then there are Catholics who are not and are more influenced by their partners, even to the point of where they become enablers and excuse-makers.

If you’re in the latter category, like I tend to be, you will really want to think this over.

It’s been taught that dating for Catholics should be for the purpose of marriage. While I have dated non-Catholic women before, I am glad those relationships did not work out because I probably would be going to Church by myself and would get no help if not push back on raising the kids Catholic.

So. I stuck to dating Catholic women exclusively.

I am also concerned that the man in this relationship is more secular, because men can be much overpowering than women in relationships regardless of pro-feminine strength seen in the media and regarding feminism.

So I think at the very least you have to be careful and if you find yourself wavering on Catholic teaching, that’s your cue to leave.

And I agree with other advice that simply being “nice” is nowhere close to being enough. Even abusive/lying/cheating/scamming partners are nice and may share some interests.

I’d say there is a least one more category (likely more), that of

1. A Catholic who not only doesn’t bring their spouse to the faith, but finds him or herself pulled away from their faith and sees the faith abd beliefs they once loved abandoned.

Life is LONG. Far too long to be unequally yoked. My wife and I don’t agree on everything (who does), but on this there could have been no disunity. There is nothing more important.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m going to go against the grain here, but first: is he Catholic? Do you know if he understands these things to be grave sins? I think that you simply cannot wait around to get this conversation going. You have to know these things STAT. And determine if he is willing to come to an understanding and acceptance of these things as being intrinsically evil.

Depending on his other qualities, I wouldn’t necessarily say run away just yet. However, I would run away as fast as you can if his attitude toward growing towards an ordered attitude/understanding toward these things is defensive, dismissive, or indignant.

This is going to sound crazy, but I am a cradle Catholic who did not know any of these things were a mortal sin!!! My attitude was secular. My actions were secular. As I learned God’s will, God’s word, the Church’s teachings, etc. I became horrified at the things of my past. We often say we do not want to change someone. But, in the case of faith, we should constantly be growing and changing together. No, you don’t want to marry a man who hates to dance and then expect him to go excitedly to Ballroom dancing class with you every Friday night. Or marry a man who lives to fish, and then tell him it is disgusting and that if he loved you, he’d stop fishing. That is entirely different. But to change in faith, in attitude, in acceptance of God’s will for us, to grow in understanding and resignation, all that is positive change. And to date a man who is willing to learn, communicate, and grow with you in your faith journey, is, IMO is a good man.

Not to get completely off topic but it is 100 impossible for a cradle Catholic to not know porn is sinful. You might have chosen to ignore it but you know it

 

[PrayHarder]

At one point in my life I would have identified as having more of a secular (I would call it popular as in “popular culture”) view on many topics. It wasn’t that I was steadfast in those beliefs, it’s just that I didn’t fully understand the Church’s teaching on them beyond “they are evil.” In many cases, I just didn’t give them much thought. When I started reading and learning more about the “why” behind the Church’s teachings, I started to turn towards the Church’s views and not the world’s views.

My suggestion is to ask him to read some good Catholic books on the topic (I’m sure Ignatius Press has plenty) or watch/hear some lectures. Consume the books, videos, lectures together and talk discuss them. If he’s intent on keeping his secular views, challenge him on why. If it comes down to, “because it’s easy” or “it feels good” then ask yourself whether this is the person who will find the strength to defend his wife and family when life gets challenging.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you all for the responses.

I see enough good in him right now that I’m not quite willing to cut and run yet. Obviously, depending on his reaction to the discussions, I’ll make a decision based on that–we’ve just passed the point where we’ve been getting to know each other and trying to figure out if we want to meet again, and now we’re to the point where we’re planning a few dates out. Honestly, I thought he’d find me too nerdy or something and we wouldn’t get that far. But I am really eager now to have these conversations, I’m just hoping for advice for approaching them and arguing my points. From my experience with female friends of mine, these tend to go better once some kind of relationship and trust has been established.

He’s a cradle Catholic, but he’s just starting to explore his faith a little more deeply because he’s confused by mine: he’s surprised by my prayer life and my choice of (very strong practicing Catholic) friends. It sounds like his family is fairly lukewarm, and he hasn’t ever been in an environment where faith was valued and prioritized; I was fortunate enough to have a really awesome, supportive Catholic social group in college that gave me great formation, and I can’t imagine trying to navigate the secular world and hold to Catholic teaching without that.

One of the things I most admire about him is his desire for self-discipline and other virtues (like growth in generosity of the heart, etc.) and his desire to understand how and why things work, which he just hasn’t applied to his faith and which I hope dispose him to be open to learning more. I think he truly doesn’t realize how harmful these things are, or why the Church teaches against them.

If he’s not open to learning, I have no problem ending things–I did that back in November with a man with whom I didn’t even need to have the conversations. I know that as faithful Catholics we have an obligation not to compromise but we also have an obligation to share our faith and revitalize members of the Body who are struggling; the latter is what I’m asking for help on.

Every sin you describe is a sin against a spouse. Namely adultery. So, if you move forward and foolishly think you can trust a grown man who I that far off on chastity and faithfulness and openly admits it. Don’t be suprisd when he is not faithful to your vows.
Also know that when one gets married life becomes hard. He may want sex during a fertile time when you should not conceive. He may want sex when you are postpartum, or he may have a porn addiction even now. Participating in porn is participating in adultery, madturbation is also an offense against you and him. I fail to understand how this man had the character to help you get to heaven. Because that would be his job. Move on this will not end well.
Is there some reason you cannot date a man with virtue and character? Do you feel unworthy of that?
You want to evangelize and teach him fine, great. You should. What you should not do is consider a person for marriage who is seriously deformed.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Not to get completely off topic but it is 100 impossible for a cradle Catholic to not know porn is sinful. You might have chosen to ignore it but you know it

This is not true at all. Many cradle Catholics grow up in homes where they receive little, if any Religious education. Many religious education teachers aren’t fully knowledgeable of Church teaching and so promote false Church teachings. God isn’t talked about regularly at home, if at all. Many of these parents are confused themselves or are angry at God and therefore right from wrong is improperly or maybe even not ever talked about. In fact, many of these “cradle Catholics” are taught that things that are sins aren’t really sins. Some never go to Church, others maybe for Christmas and Easter and a wedding or funeral. They honestly haven’t been taught, or haven’t been to Church enough (if at all) to hear these things are sins. How are they supposed to avoid what they do not know to be sins, or avoid serious sins that are made light of and not considered mortal by the teachers or parents?

Just curious?

 

[blueshells]

At one point in my life I would have identified as having more of a secular (I would call it popular as in “popular culture”) view on many topics. It wasn’t that I was steadfast in those beliefs, it’s just that I didn’t fully understand the Church’s teaching on them beyond “they are evil.” In many cases, I just didn’t give them much thought. When I started reading and learning more about the “why” behind the Church’s teachings, I started to turn towards the Church’s views and not the world’s views.

My suggestion is to ask him to read some good Catholic books on the topic (I’m sure Ignatius Press has plenty) or watch/hear some lectures. Consume the books, videos, lectures together and talk discuss them. If he’s intent on keeping his secular views, challenge him on why. If it comes down to, “because it’s easy” or “it feels good” then ask yourself whether this is the person who will find the strength to defend his wife and family when life gets challenging.

Thank you, this is a good idea. With Valentine’s Day coming up, I think there should be some lectures on Theology of the Body at a parish in town or at Theology on Tap.

 

[1ke]

we’ve just passed the point where we’ve been getting to know each other and trying to figure out if we want to meet again, and now we’re to the point where we’re planning a few dates out.

I thought you were farther along than this. I probably wouldn’t bring it up at this point, you haven’t really been on even a “few” dates. I don’t think that’s quite what I got from your OP, where you said you were moving to the “relationship” stage.

He sounds like a nice person, and yes perhaps one with awakening faith who would be agreeable to learning what the Church teaches, and why. There’s a book called Twelve Tough Issues (actually a second edition that added some more and updated) by
Archbishop Daniel Pilarczyk. We used this book in a Catholic bible study group of young adults a number of years ago… might be interested to read it together. It’s quite small. It need not even be in the context of your relationship, just more of a “hey, want to do this book study during Lent?”

 

[blueshells]

Every sin you describe is a sin against a spouse. Namely adultery. So, if you move forward and foolishly think you can trust a grown man who I that far off on chastity and faithfulness and openly admits it. Don’t be suprisd when he is not faithful to your vows.
Also know that when one gets married life becomes hard. He may want sex during a fertile time when you should not conceive. He may want sex when you are postpartum, or he may have a porn addiction even now. Participating in porn is participating in adultery, madturbation is also an offense against you and him. I fail to understand how this man had the character to help you get to heaven. Because that would be his job. Move on this will not end well.
Is there some reason you cannot date a man with virtue and character? Do you feel unworthy of that?
You want to evangelize and teach him fine, great. You should. What you should not do is consider a person for marriage who is seriously deformed.

I honestly think that he doesn’t know how off his views are. I think he’s never had good teaching or good formation. We’ve gotten to this point because he does have virtue and character, and I’m hopeful that once he starts to understand the reasons behind the teachings he’ll start to change his views or, God willing, a full blown interior conversion. If he doesn’t, then I’ll end things.

I know I’m worthy of a man of virtue and character; I also know that he’s worthy of mercy and at least some effort to help him recognize his own dignity.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is not true at all. Many cradle Catholics grow up in homes where they receive little, if any Religious education. Many religious education teachers aren’t fully knowledgeable of Church teaching and so promote false Church teachings. God isn’t talked about regularly at home, if at all. Many of these parents are confused themselves or are angry at God and therefore right from wrong is improperly or maybe even not ever talked about. In fact, many of these “cradle Catholics” are taught that things that are sins aren’t really sins. Some never go to Church, others maybe for Christmas and Easter and a wedding or funeral. They honestly haven’t been taught, or haven’t been to Church enough (if at all) to hear these things are sins. How are they supposed to avoid what they do not know to be sins, or avoid serious sins that are made light of and not considered mortal by the teachers or parents?

Just curious?

One cannot look at the cross on Easter and Christmas even once and think porn is a good and non sinful thing. Perhaps masturbation, perhaps artificial birth control can be believed out of poor education or ignorance. But porn, nope. It is impossible. Unless one is a victim of sexual abuse so often that porn becomes an expression of love and even then I would run. The op describes his views and then speaks of his character. even in ignorance defense of the evil of porn or neglect to think of what it really is is impossible for a man of character. I am worried not only by the young mans beliefs but by the op’s excuses and blindness. It isn’t my life but there is virtually no situation in which I would advise my daughter to continue to explore a relationship with this man.