De-Conversion?

[JRKH]

It’s comments like that that had me feel it pointless to attend the Catholic Church, I may be wrong but your tone to me makes me think you would be one of the people turning around glaring at me because my daughter is babbling or crying…

I left the Catholic Church for many resons this was just one of them…

I do not wish to sidetrack the thread, but I find your comment interesting. True, the previous post was, perhaps, not as sensitive as it could be, but after all you are on a catholic board, responding to a catholic persons thread and encouraging that person to leave the church because: (in your experience)

“the Catholic Church is not at all welcoming to children actually being at Mass.”

And go on to say that:

It (the catholic church) has to be the most unwelcoming Church in the world

You feel justified in making these comments but, of course, kell’s comment was rude and reenforcing to you leaving the Church and he should be called to task for it.

You felt you and your children were unwelcomed, others (myself included) have stated that we feel otherwise. Perhaps the problem is less with Holy Mother Church and more with your perceptions of it gleaned from some of it’s “sinner” members.

Now before you take issue with my comments I will ask you to recognize that you clicked on the link to come to this site. You clicked on the thread and the reply button to make you comments. No one is tracking you down with the intent of putting you down. People here are responding to your posts and your (name removed by moderator)ut.
If the (name removed by moderator)ut is charitable, the responses will, for the most part, be charitable. If you receive an uncharitable post the best recourse is to ignore it, or respond to it in a charitable manner, thus putting the onus directly on the uncharitable poster.

Peace
James

 

[jmcrae]

One thing I’d like to mention, too, is that, unless they actually say something nasty, you don’t know why people are turning around.

I know for myself, if I hear a sudden noise, I turn around to see what it was. I’m not “glaring” when I do that, but I also don’t feel a need to smile and wave every time I turn around to see what bumped, or squeaked, or whatever.

 

[lukewarm]

One thing I’d like to mention, too, is that, unless they actually say something nasty, you don’t know why people are turning around.

I know for myself, if I hear a sudden noise, I turn around to see what it was. I’m not “glaring” when I do that, but I also don’t feel a need to smile and wave every time I turn around to see what bumped, or squeaked, or whatever.

I’ve been hushed several times and other times given a look of death where it is undeniable what the person was reacting to. All I’m doing is agreeing with the OP that children aren’t welcomed (from my experience) in the Catholic Church, it isn’t a family oriented worship, it is isolated and more for individual meditation and grown people, not little kids.

I can feel the OP’s pain is all, it is uncomfortable and embarrassing and I’ve witnessed it many times and there are countless complaints on this very site about it so it isn’t just in his head.

 

[maryalene]

James, switching parishes won’t help I have never been to a Catholic Church where children weren’t treated as an annoyance during Mass. Hence why when you go to Mass you see a bunch of people over 60 and little else, all the folks with families have been made to feel unwelcome so they stay home. I don’t think switching Parishes helps the OP out unless that Parish has a cry room.

You should move to Michigan! We have lots of kid-friendly parishes here.

 

[thomasf]

If I remember right, last year at this time the op was on these boards posting about not being able to come into the church fast enough, about how he knew more about the theology of the church than most people, and that he had to come into the church as fast as possible. At the time, many people suggested he calm down and take it slowly and go through RCIA. Which wasn’t what he wanted to hear. Now a year later he’s ready to quit already. Seems like to me that he should have taken his time. The catholic church isn’t something you can just hop in and out of based on whatever whim suits you at the time. The first adversity that comes along and he’s ready to chuck it all away already. How sad, although not suprising.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=144463

 

[po18guy]

How can you leave the Eucharist? I think all the protestants converting to the Catholic church are a great gift to the church. Maybe God wants you both to persevere and eventually be a blessing to the parish. I feel so badly for you but try to stick with it. Find those other parents in the parish.

Amen! The Eucharist is Christ. Christ is the sole reason to become Catholic. To attend a non-Catholic church leads you to sin. It does not fulfill your weekly obligation to attend the Holy Mass. It leads you away from Christ in the Eucharist and teaches doctrinal error. All of this because attending mass is inconvenient or other parishioners are annoyed? What about God? It annoys Him, Who judges you, when you leave Him out of convenience.

Remember how inconvenient it was for Christ to hang, dying, on the cross for you, your wife, and the children. My wife and I heard half a homily each when our son was young, so energized was he. It was a stress and a struggle. But, you know what? It’s all in the past now.

If it was worth becoming Catholic, it is certainly worth remaining so. I simply cannot attend any other church, no matter how lively, accepting and convenient it is. No Tabernacle, no Christ.

The peace and strength of Christ be with you during this blessed Holy Week.

 

[lukewarm]

Obviously people who leave the Catholic Church don’t equate leaving the Church with leaving Christ (not speaking about me). But obviously they don’t believe the eucharist is anything more than a piece of unleavened bread so the question “how could you leave Christ and the eucharist” rings hollow.

 

[jmcrae]

If I remember right, last year at this time the op was on these boards posting about not being able to come into the church fast enough, about how he knew more about the theology of the church than most people, and that he had to come into the church as fast as possible. At the time, many people suggested he calm down and take it slowly and go through RCIA. Which wasn’t what he wanted to hear. Now a year later he’s ready to quit already. Seems like to me that he should have taken his time. The catholic church isn’t something you can just hop in and out of based on whatever whim suits you at the time. The first adversity that comes along and he’s ready to chuck it all away already. How sad, although not suprising.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=144463

I remember that, too. I thought then, and I still think now, that he should have waited another year. I am always wary of people who “know more than the teacher” after only a few classes, and after only going to Mass a couple of times.

And yes, I know that he had been attending Mass as a guest, prior to that, but it’s not really the same thing as inquiring into membership.

 

[theAuthor]

Hmm, know more than the teacher after only a few classes? I had literally years of Catechesis before entering the RCIA program. To not say that would be pride in reverse, which is just another form of pride.

I also tell you thomasf and jmcrae, that my very last post in this very thread said I’d try a different Parish. So you have been very uncharitable to me here. ie maybe our local Parish is not kid-friendly, and maybe another Catholic Parish would be. I am prepared to give that a try.

I have been helped by those who have said it’s OK to go to a different Parish. Although I know that is “within the rules” to do so, we were pretty firmly told we had to go to the Parish where we were confirmed.

By the way, I believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. My wife does too. And certainly not attending Mass means you miss out on that. But we missed out anyway. We could only ever make it through to the homily with the kids. Honestly, that was as far as we’d ever get. We only once received the Eucharist when we attended with our children. Usually I’d be outside, unable to hear Mass, under the tree and angry at my son for misbehaving. It seemed pretty pointless. I mean I wasn’t really there.

I’d like to point out here that in prot churches that I have known, like the one my wife is currently attending, the children are taken out of the service, but they get taught Bible stories and things. Much better than sitting under a tree with your angry Dad for my boy, I’d reckom, in practical terms.

It’s a horrible thing, the mix of nice, supportive and helpful comments that I’ve gotten here. Then thanks jmcrae and thomasf for condemning me. I guess your point is that I never was a “real” Catholic. Nobody could ever be as “real” Catholic as you, etc. :bowdown: Good memories for clanging gongs.

 

[theistgal]

Obviously people who leave the Catholic Church don’t equate leaving the Church with leaving Christ (not speaking about me). But obviously they don’t believe the eucharist is anything more than a piece of unleavened bread so the question “how could you leave Christ and the eucharist” rings hollow.

Unless, of course, they go Eastern Orthodox.

 

[po18guy]

If I remember right, last year at this time the op was on these boards posting about not being able to come into the church fast enough, about how he knew more about the theology of the church than most people, and that he had to come into the church as fast as possible. At the time, many people suggested he calm down and take it slowly and go through RCIA. Which wasn’t what he wanted to hear. Now a year later he’s ready to quit already. Seems like to me that he should have taken his time. The catholic church isn’t something you can just hop in and out of based on whatever whim suits you at the time. The first adversity that comes along and he’s ready to chuck it all away already.

Mark 4:16-17 “Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away”.

Christ’s peace.

 

[J_C]

one of the best parishes I ever saw was a Mexican parish. The Mass was in Spanish. The men were mostly wearing white shirts with ties and the ladies nice dresses, on a very hot day with no air conditioning. The place was just absolutely FULL of children, yelping, laughing, crying, you could hardly hear the priest over the din. It was joyous and wonderful to see people with such great happy faith celebrate Mass and not be bothered by the children.

David I thihk you are making this problem of the children out to be more than it really is. Hopefully you can find another parish with lots of young people with children in it. Your children will be grown up before you know it and then you’ll miss their antics. yes I have been to the antiseptic protestant services and also some Catholic parishes where the children are not welcome because they bother. Do find another parish, you will be happier and your children will too.

 

[thomasf]

Hmm, know more than the teacher after only a few classes? I had literally years of Catechesis before entering the RCIA program. To not say that would be pride in reverse, which is just another form of pride.

I also tell you thomasf and jmcrae, that my very last post in this very thread said I’d try a different Parish. So you have been very uncharitable to me here. ie maybe our local Parish is not kid-friendly, and maybe another Catholic Parish would be. I am prepared to give that a try.

I have been helped by those who have said it’s OK to go to a different Parish. Although I know that is “within the rules” to do so, we were pretty firmly told we had to go to the Parish where we were confirmed.

By the way, I believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. My wife does too. And certainly not attending Mass means you miss out on that. But we missed out anyway. We could only ever make it through to the homily with the kids. Honestly, that was as far as we’d ever get. We only once received the Eucharist when we attended with our children. Usually I’d be outside, unable to hear Mass, under the tree and angry at my son for misbehaving. It seemed pretty pointless. I mean I wasn’t really there.

I’d like to point out here that in prot churches that I have known, like the one my wife is currently attending, the children are taken out of the service, but they get taught Bible stories and things. Much better than sitting under a tree with your angry Dad for my boy, I’d reckom, in practical terms.

It’s a horrible thing, the mix of nice, supportive and helpful comments that I’ve gotten here. Then thanks jmcrae and thomasf for condemning me. I guess your point is that I never was a “real” Catholic. Nobody could ever be as “real” Catholic as you, etc. :bowdown: Good memories for clanging gongs.

No, the point is a year ago you were whining about not being able to get into the church fast enough and weren’t willing to wait for RCIA because you had to have the eucharist. And weren’t willing to listen to the advice people gave you. Now a year later at the first sign of adversity you’re talking about jumping ship and giving up on christianity altogether. And you’ve gone from having to have the eucharist to not attending mass because of whatever problems you think you have with your kids at the mass. If you believe that the catholic church is Jesus’ church and the truth and the fullness of the christian faith, nothing is going to keep you from it. You need to make a committment to the church and stick to it. You might have learned about that had you waited and gone through RCIA. I don’t know.

I think the quote above from Mark sums it up completely.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

why are the children so disruptive? Is this only in public, at Mass or are they also like this at home and in school? Are they eating sugary stimulating cereal before Mass? or perhaps not eating at all? Seems to me shipping them off to be someone else’s problem for a couple of hours is not really serving their best interests either. If they are absolutley uncontrollable perhaps a babysitter is in order, you and your wife could get a babysitter on Saturday night and attend Sunday Vigil instead of Sunday morning Mass. What kind of parish do you go to? I didn’t kow there were parishes who did not have crying rooms or children’s liturgy. I certainly would look for another parish. In fact I did myself because I was not happy with the first one I started going to when I moved here. I thought it was cold and after trying to fit in and be active for a year I starting going to one I was much more comfortable with.
As far as the other thread about RCIA I just want to mention one thing—I was told the MAIN point of RCIA being a year long was to be able to celebrate one entire year of the Church with the Church. I learned nothing I did not already know from RCIA class, but I did need that whole year to become familliar with the Church’s year of worship. And it took 4 parishes in 4 different States (of the US) before I found one that even wanted me to be in the RCIA program! (I am disabled and the others were not up to the challenges I would bring.) I tried for 5 years to become Catholic and was just as frustrated as you were. Glad I did not give up.

 

[panoikei]

First, leaving is not really an option. But I beleive you already know that. This is emphasized before you are allowed to come into the Church. The Catholic Church does NOT want to invite lame non-practicing Catholics in the Church, we have enough of that already. That was the comment of our RCIA/DRE. He is very orthodox and is strongly supported by the bishop. I agree with that. It would be grossly negligent to study, believe and accept the faith followed by the oath you and your wife took. That in itself would be gravely sinful to do deceiptfully. It’s just wrong. Think about it…

Now as far as what you said. You were very good practicing Christian prior to converting to Catholicism. Don’t just a book by its cover. Or better yet. Be warned, there are lots of idiots out there that claim to be Catholic, but are poorly catechized Catholics acting like wolves in sheeps clothing. They are in essence doing Satan’s work, without even realizing it. The Mass is always difficult for adults. I intentionally take my daughter away from my wife so that she can concentrate. I know the mass by heart and know what’s happening so well that my body just goes with the flow, and I LOVE the mass. It’s my sacrifice for my wife and it helps prepare my children for participating more fully in the mass. Those other people are just being knuckleheads, very uncharitable. Next time look around more. Notice that the majority of folks are not glaring at you. You would be very charitable to ignore these folks. Ask the priest to make an announcement about this…no pester him to death over it. The Catholic Church despirately need more converts from Protestant faiths. You see many of us took our faith seriously so much that we had bible classes and VBS and many more programs catered to children. So Catholic would do well to watch and learn. My wife is a CCD teacher and was brought into the Church Easter 07’. Be at peace and do the Lord’s will by teaching us a thing or two about what conviction is like. We need that lesson.

Hope you’re not offended by my strong position, but it is teching from the Church that we can not leave the bossom of the Church once we konw the truth. You now know and are commissioned to bring the word to those around you by your commitment to it. Find a new parish if you can. But you might be able to make your parish work. We are a huge Church, not just the one on x y corner. The Church is everywhere and no one cares which parish you’re part of unless they go by old beleifs. Choosing a parish that meets your family needs is important. Do what you must, but you’re making a grave error in bring your children to a protestant church to avoid unwanted looks. Get a bottle of holy water and squirt it in their eyes each time they glare at you.

 

[blessedtoo]

Those that worry about what others say or think about their children in Church make me wonder if this concern carries over into other areas of their lives. Do you obsess and become frustrated at the mall when your child acts up and people stare? Do you reject the mall because of the opinions of others? What happens if you take your children to a restaurant or a movie? Certainly Church can’t be the only place where you feel this lack of support.

We are all human, despite the fact that we may meet one another in Church. Yes, we strive to be saints and overcome our knee-jerk responses, but still we are prone to behave uncharitably. If a child in the row behind me is screaming throughout the Mass, it is virtually impossible for me to concentrate. No, I would not turn around and shoot the stink eye to the parents. No, I would not make a snide comment. But even if I did, it is YOUR responsibility to kick it away and not personalize it. If someone in a movie theatre had harsh words for you and your family, you would probably be more forgiving of them then you are of your Catholic brothers and sisters. Let it go. It is their issue to take up with the Lord.

By the way, I believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. My wife does too. And certainly not attending Mass means you miss out on that. But we missed out anyway. We could only ever make it through to the homily with the kids. Honestly, that was as far as we’d ever get. We only once received the Eucharist when we attended with our children. Usually I’d be outside, unable to hear Mass, under the tree and angry at my son for misbehaving. It seemed pretty pointless. I mean I wasn’t really there.

Can you begin to imagine how THRILLED God is that you make this extraordinary sacrifice each week? The effort you and your family must make just to be in attendance is not overlooked by your Lord. And if you are standing out by a tree during Communion, you can certainly make a spiritual Communion with God, who, I feel certain, is delighted that you overcame your struggle just to be with Him.

As another poster suggested, perhaps a babysitter for 90 minutes on a Sunday would resolve the entire issue. Perhaps you and your wife could go to Mass at separate times. It’s not a perfect solution but it’s also not a permanent situation. Your children will grow up and be more composed in Church eventually. The important thing is getting to Mass. Your argument for leaving the Catholic Church would perhaps have carried more weight if you had at least attempted some of these alternatives.

 

[theAuthor]

I probably should explain that I have been suffering with depression for the past few years. Part of my keeness to receive Communion was that the priest who first Catechised me told me that it may help me a lot. After all, it is receiving the Lord, who heals. Even someone who just touched His garment, remember? So that is why I was so keen not to wait.

blessedtoo, actually we do avoid those other things too. We *have *to do the food shopping, but we do tend to avoid things like the movies (I"ve gone from movie buff to not knowing what it showing). Restaurants? There is McDonalds and one “safe” vietnamese place that seems to like the kids, so we go there. But we wouldn’t try other places. Yes it does affect our lives outside of church. We are sensitive to other people. Probably too sensitive, but to us, we are treating others as we would want to be treated ie not disturbed, annoyed, etc.

panokei, nothing offensive there, mate. Babysitter is no cigar though. We had a babysitter just one time for something (an RCIA night actually), but generally my wife won’t accept babysitting, and she wins every argument.

I am basically thinking that we’ll leave it on hold till the kids are older, and then maybe head back to Mass if we can’t find a Parish to suit at the moment. It will be hard to drag my wife away from this great new church though. She is very happy there.

You might have learned about that had you waited and gone through RCIA. I don’t know.

OK, so your memory is not perfect. We did in fact go through the whole RCIA and were Confirmed. Yeah, I whinged about it . You know what the RCIA taught me, honestly? It taught me about a brand of Catholicism which is closed minded in the extreme and extremely Traditional (eg “you have to go to the Parish where you were Confirmed, it is the right thing to do.” Which isn’t true.) It also was basically a big lesson in the Reformation and how evil protestantism is. Oh, hang on there was one great thing: “Charity begins at home.” True! The R in RCIA should have stood for Reformation, cos that’s what we talked about. It was as if by attending this protestant church previously, that we were best friends with Martin Luther or something. Totally not true.

I always wondered when I read that parable in Mark, which was me. You do understand that the seed is the Word, and that you are basically saying that the word is not in me anymore. That my heart is shallow soil. You do get that, I hope. You are saying that I have no faith at all anymore. So I may as well walk away. Is that right?

Also I made a big mistake of debating some very clever atheists online who raised many doubts for me. Then I found out that the RCC accepts evolution, that most of the stories I’d had faith in were dismissed by many Catholic scholars as “race memories” or had to be understood as being written by ancients and not literally true, etc(Raymond Brown) Which is fine. But then I started to think, “Well, if all those stories aren’t true, maybe the stories of Jesus aren’t either. Maybe his followers really did deify and elevate Him.”

So don’t be confused when I talk about deconverting, that children at Mass is my only qualm. In my heart of hearts I will always believe in God in some way, and I still very firmly believe in the Catholicism I was first taught, and most stuff I learned in RCIA. But I don’t go in for the kind of thinking that the Reformation was yesterday, nor that most protestants are protesting against anything. Want to know about the Reformation? Ask a Catholic, not a protestant. Mosy don’t have a clue, they’re just doing their thing.

Oh, I should add that as for feeling Catholic, I already did when I enquired about Confirmation. Living in the Presbytery, I used to know everyone in that whole Parish, I saw how it all ran, I was right in the middle of it. I felt part of it. I miss that, being an ordinary parishoner, and “attending.” It’s not as good, but I can’t go back to that time, it’s gone. So I have to look at now and tomorrow.

 

[J_C]

well i’ve been Catholic for over 20 years and have visited parishes in many US states, and have been to Mass in every parish in my large mostly Catholic city, and i have never seen anything resembling what lukewarm has described. I guess i’ve been lucky. i certainly have seen people glare at noisey kids, and even some noisy adults, and i admit that i have turned and done some glaring myself at noisy adults.

once I was being bothered by a man behind me constantly talking durin g the Mass, finally I turned and glared and was embarrassed to see that it was an obviously disabled man not in full control of himself. i turned back to the front and turned red with shame; I thought how wonderful that his family took him to Mass, and how maybe I shouldn’t have been so “into” my own experience that I was bothered so much by a small amount of noise being made by another person.

David i understand and relate to your concerns. my children had behaviour problems, and were very good at making our lives miserable whereever we went with them. It is a living hell for parents who want to fit in with others. You may just be going thruough a phase with this, soon your children will be older and causing problems of a different kind and you will look back fondly to days in which the worst thing you had to deal with was that they made noise in church. this is all part of parrenting, and not all children are identical, some parents suffer more than others. Life is unfair in many ways!

Also i relate to your depression. I also have been a life long depressed person. my faith and practice of Catholicism is the best medicine I’ve ever had for depression. There is no magic cure for it, though, whether Eucharist or anything else I have ever found. As a Christian/Catholic you will most likely still suffer with depression, just as you will also suffer with other diseases and problems in life. Seek out counseling, make friends in your parish, share your life with others, reach out to help them, allow them to help you. Study God’s word, link up in the Liturgy, be humble, obey, and I believe that your depression will make less trouble for you over the long run. Yes I will add you and your family to my prayer list.

Go where God leads you to go. Today is another day on your journey and you just never know where you may be next year!

 

[Pong]

If I remember right, last year at this time the op was on these boards posting about not being able to come into the church fast enough, about how he knew more about the theology of the church than most people, and that he had to come into the church as fast as possible.

Glad someone finally brought that up; I was about to do.

Then thanks jmcrae and thomasf for condemning me. I guess your point is that I never was a “real” Catholic. Nobody could ever be as “real” Catholic as you, etc. Good memories for clanging gongs.

Seems like the OP basically wants a pat on the back for whatever it is he’s about to do, but then has a hissy when that isn’t what happends. Same game; different thread. It sounds like the OP has some stuff in his head to get worked about before he makes any rash decisions, and for that, he has my prayers.

 

[lukewarm]

well i’ve been Catholic for over 20 years and have visited parishes in many US states, and have been to Mass in every parish in my large mostly Catholic city, and i have never seen anything resembling what lukewarm has described.

What situation is that? Being glared at and shooshed (I can’t imagine that is that big a deal because people complain about it here all the time)? Or having a Priest unwilling to meet with us and the Parish not registering us after we filled out a card?

I assure you it is true, here’s the Parish, go ahead and call… I’ve filled out two Parish registration cards, we left three messages never got a return call, when we finnally reached a secretary she informed us the Parish Priest doesn’t meet with new families and we should fill out a card in the back of the Church, we did and months later… nothing. Now that isn’t my reason for leaving the CC but it didn’t help the matter.

St. John the Evangelist
845-291-4971 (if anyone ever picks up)