De-veiling the bride

[dixieagle]

The post-marriage-consumption

I think you mean “consummation”.

 

[dixieagle]

Exactly! That’s what I thought immediately when I read that Catholic marriages take place at Mass. And thanks for sharing that, I think it’s beautiful.

Not all Catholic marriages take place at Mass (it is not a requirement). The hat-with-veil thing was simply a fashion of the day, as were the large, floppy “picture hats” worn by my bridesmaids in 1974 (thank heavens those passed out of fashion!) As headcoverings are no longer required, rarely will you see anything beyond flowers, etc., on bridesmaids today. I’m sure that most brides don’t even know the origins of the bridal veil…they just like it because it’s traditional and pretty.

 

[former_Catholic]

I think you mean “consummation”.

Thank you, yes. Ha yes, indeed I’m sure Freud would say my spelling error was my subconscious truth coming forth as I do indeed find the whole wedding sheet tradition sufficiently revolting so as to pretty well leave one coughing up blood, aka, “consumption”…

You are also right about hats with netting or chiffon hanging demurely down to shade the forehead having been the style of the day.

 

[saoirsephoto]

I would agree that way the tradition has been Americanized it has become rather tacky and I wouldn’t care for it. However, when combined with all of the other traditions it takes the same meaning as those traditions. The money from that dance is supposed to help the new couple start up in their new lives together, and often people use quarters because they make a bigger “plunk” sound. Done the right way (immersed in the other ethnic traditions) I think its endearing. At our wedding it was expected, my husband’s family is very Polish and there were just certain things that are expected to happen at a wedding. His brother didn’t have one, but we all snuck in Polish traditions into the reception anyways.

 

[former_Catholic]

And which cultures are you referring to here? I think it’s important to be specific as not EVERY country practices this the same way.

Roman Catholic, Roman culture, extending throughout the most Roman remains of the Roman Empire and into the Americas, largely through the conquest activities of Spain & Portugal.
Polish and other cultures of northern Europe are not as intensely Roman in tradition as they historically fell under the province of Hun/Goth tradition. Hun/Goth tradition is also the seat of the split of the Reformation away from the Roman tradition.
Most but not all of the 19th century women I knew were Italian in origin, The Italian peninsula provided the world the origin of the Roman Catholic traditions, but the Iberian peninsula was equally deeply steeped in the Roman traditions also…

 

[nickybr38]

Not all Catholic marriages take place at Mass (it is not a requirement). The hat-with-veil thing was simply a fashion of the day, as were the large, floppy “picture hats” worn by my bridesmaids in 1974 (thank heavens those passed out of fashion!) As headcoverings are no longer required, rarely will you see anything beyond flowers, etc., on bridesmaids today. I’m sure that most brides don’t even know the origins of the bridal veil…they just like it because it’s traditional and pretty.

I’m new to Catholicism - I was under the impression all marriages take place at Mass and/or IN the Church. I know veiling is no longer required, I was thinking more in terms of before veiling was no longer ‘required’ and also more tradionalists who still believe in veiling.

During the time when veiling was still considered normal I would have expected those having their wedding during Mass to have bridesmaid veils.

 

[CoffeeHound]

I’m new to Catholicism - I was under the impression all marriages take place at Mass and/or IN the Church.

Marriages are required to take place in the parish church in which either the bride or groom live. However, with the pastor’s permission, a marriage can be held in a different parish church or in another suitable oratory in the existing parish (such as in a chapel or in the parish office). With a bishop’s permission, a marriage can be held virtually anywhere that is “suitable”, such as in a non-Catholic Christian church, in a country club, in a garden, etc.

Marriages are not required to take place within a Nuptial Mass. Without the need for permission, a marriage can take place with a Rite of Marriage (basically a Liturgy of the Word with an exchange of vows and nuptial blessing). With a bishop’s permission, a marriage can take place in a non-Catholic religious ceremony or in a legal ceremony.

 

[Brenda_V]

Not all Catholic marriages take place at Mass (it is not a requirement). The hat-with-veil thing was simply a fashion of the day, as were the large, floppy “picture hats” worn by my bridesmaids in 1974 (thank heavens those passed out of fashion!) As headcoverings are no longer required, rarely will you see anything beyond flowers, etc., on bridesmaids today. I’m sure that most brides don’t even know the origins of the bridal veil…they just like it because it’s traditional and pretty.

I’m new to Catholicism - I was under the impression all marriages take place at Mass and/or IN the Church. I know veiling is no longer required, I was thinking more in terms of before veiling was no longer ‘required’ and also more tradionalists who still believe in veiling.

During the time when veiling was still considered normal I would have expected those having their wedding during Mass to have bridesmaid veils.

Okay, responding to both of the above. Not all Marriages take place withing a Nuptial Mass but almost all take place in a Church and up until the late 1960’s a woman did not enter a Church without covering her head so, yes, prior to the 1960’s the Maid/Matron of honor and any Bridesmaids would have had at the very least a chapel veil on whether the wedding was taking place within a Nuptial Mass or not.

Marriages are required to take place in the parish church in which either the bride or groom live. However, with the pastor’s permission, a marriage can be held in a different parish church or in another suitable oratory in the existing parish (such as in a chapel or in the parish office). With a bishop’s permission, a marriage can be held virtually anywhere that is “suitable”, such as in a non-Catholic Christian church, in a country club, in a garden, etc.

Marriages are not required to take place within a Nuptial Mass. Without the need for permission, a marriage can take place with a Rite of Marriage (basically a Liturgy of the Word with an exchange of vows and nuptial blessing). With a bishop’s permission, a marriage can take place in a non-Catholic religious ceremony or in a legal ceremony.

I would like to point out that it is rare, really rare for a Bishop to give permission for a marriage to take place in such a place as a country club or in a garden - those are not considered suitable places . See Fr. Serpas answer to “Why can’t a Catholic get married in a garden” forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=478543

 

[former_Catholic]

Bridesmaids would have had at the very least a chapel veil on whether the wedding was taking place within a Nuptial Mass or not.

A “chapel veil” or short or long “mantilla” or shawl was worn to fulfill the head covering requirement of the Roman palla up until the mid 1960’s. It is a fabric draped over the top of the head and which does not typically cover the face. It is not the full veil, which fully covers the face, as well as the head, and falls to the waist or below and which was traditionally used only for brides (esp. in traditionally white, light neutral, or light blue) and in black for mourning attire.

I would like to point out that it is rare, really rare for a Bishop to give permission for a marriage to take place in such a place as a country club or in a garden - those are not considered suitable places .

A country club or garden? Never.
A private chapel? Occasionally.

 

[CoffeeHound]

I would like to point out that it is rare, really rare for a Bishop to give permission for a marriage to take place in such a place as a country club or in a garden - those are not considered suitable places . See Fr. Serpas answer to “Why can’t a Catholic get married in a garden”

You have to have good reason (you can’t just walk in and say “but the garden is SOOO pretty”), but I have seen a Catholic validly married at a country club (specifically a Catholic and a Jew).

 

[former_Catholic]

You have to have good reason (you can’t just walk in and say “but the garden is SOOO pretty”), but I have seen a Catholic validly married at a country club (specifically a Catholic and a Jew).

A Catholic may have an interfaith marriage and marry in a wedding ceremony performed in accordance with another faith… and certainly that marriage is recognized as a marriage by the Church…
but that is not quite the same thing as having a Catholic wedding ceremony and being validly married within the Catholic Church with a validly Catholic marriage. It is not something that will stand up in court as being validly Catholic, unless a prior dispensation was granted, or the marriage is subsequently blessed and approved by the Church.

A wedding in the lovely Jewish tradition may of course always be performed outdoors, and of course is recognized as a marriage by the Church. One needs a canopy and a (hopefully) clear blue sky and a warm day… a country club would be lovely, and it’s an absolutely beautiful tradition, but it isn’t Catholic,
but just because it isn’t Catholic, doesn’t mean that it is not recognized by the Catholic Church as a wedding and a marriage.
Sigh. I just love outdoor Jewish weddings…it’s a lovely tradition.

 

[dixieagle]

I’m new to Catholicism - I was under the impression all marriages take place at Mass and/or IN the Church. I know veiling is no longer required, I was thinking more in terms of before veiling was no longer ‘required’ and also more tradionalists who still believe in veiling.

During the time when veiling was still considered normal I would have expected those having their wedding during Mass to have bridesmaid veils.

A couple of things here…

First, while Catholic weddings do, indeed, normally take place in church, it is not necessary that there be a Mass (though, for two Catholics, it is desirable). If one of the parties is non-Catholic, though a Mass is allowed, more normally there is a wedding outside of the Mass, with readings, homily, etc. It is possible to receive special permission to have a wedding outside of a church, but usually when it is a Catholic marrying a non-Christian; a friend’s daughter recently married a Jewish man in an outdoor ceremony, with such permission.

“Veiling” was never required; a headcovering was. The type of headcovering depended upon the fashion of the day, hence hats were worn while I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. “Chapel veils” or mantillas were usually worn by elderly women (older Italian ladies in my parish!)

A bride could just as easily have worn a white hat, except that bridal veils - which were the norm in many non-Christian cultures, as well - are traditional. Veils for bridesmaids usually manifested themselves only as little pieces of pastel fluff on the pillbox hats, or wide headbands, which once were fashionable.

 

[dixieagle]

A “chapel veil” or short or long “mantilla” or shawl was worn to fulfill the head covering requirement of the Roman palla up until the mid 1960’s. It is a fabric draped over the top of the head and which does not typically cover the face. It is not the full veil, which fully covers the face, as well as the head, and falls to the waist or below and which was traditionally used only for brides (esp. in traditionally white, light neutral, or light blue) and in black for mourning attire.

A country club or garden? Never.
A private chapel? Occasionally.

Actually, as I mention in another post, permission can, and has, been granted for weddings in clubs, gardens and elsewhere when a Catholic is marrying, for example, a Jewish person. A friend’s daughter was just married with such permission. There was a priest and a rabbi.

 

[former_Catholic]

Actually, as I mention in another post, permission can, and has, been granted for weddings in clubs, gardens and elsewhere when a Catholic is marrying, for example, a Jewish person. A friend’s daughter was just married with such permission. There was a priest and a rabbi.

Wow. A priest and a rabbi. I wish I could have seen that one; after all these years it would have done my heart a world of good. Perhaps there is such a thing as progress after all, or perhaps enough of us walked out 30+ years ago over our mixed marriages to have actually made a difference for the next generation.

 

[nickybr38]

… sounds like the start of a bad joke.

A priest and a rabbi walk into a wedding…

cough

Thanks for all the info guys. Seems to me as if there is a case of lots of mixed information.

 

[CoffeeHound]

… a country club would be lovely, and it’s an absolutely beautiful tradition, but it isn’t Catholic,
but just because it isn’t Catholic, doesn’t mean that it is not recognized by the Catholic Church as a wedding and a marriage.

It won’t be recognized by the Catholic Church unless you have a dispensation before the marriage. That’s why I said you could get married outdoors with permission from a bishop.

Wow. A priest and a rabbi. I wish I could have seen that one; after all these years it would have done my heart a world of good.

If I remember correctly, the rabbi performed the entire wedding ceremony and the priest was just there to observe and perform a blessing over the couple at the end.

 

[dixieagle]

Wow. A priest and a rabbi. I wish I could have seen that one; after all these years it would have done my heart a world of good. Perhaps there is such a thing as progress after all, or perhaps enough of us walked out 30+ years ago over our mixed marriages to have actually made a difference for the next generation.

It’s been my experience that those who stay and work from the inside actually make the difference…

 

[former_Catholic]

If I remember correctly, the rabbi performed the entire wedding ceremony and the priest was just there to observe and perform a blessing over the couple at the end.

Oh, ok… a Jewish wedding, with a Catholic blessing of the marriage afterward… that makes perfect sense. I still find it very inspiring. They’ve come a long long way from how things used to be.

 

[former_Catholic]

It’s been my experience that those who stay and work from the inside actually make the difference…

Glad to hear it. In my experience, it was unfortunately a suicide and several lawsuits that bankrupted the diocese that actually made a difference.

 

[dixieagle]

Glad to hear it. In my experience, it was unfortunately a suicide and several lawsuits that bankrupted the diocese that actually made a difference.

But you had mentioned previously that you left the Church because of a “mixed marriage”…