Deacon Vestments In N.O.

[Spiller]

Also, it’s not our place to question the design of the dalmatic. If a deacon wears a dalmatic that looks too much, in a lay person’s opinion, like a chasuble, **that’s not a reason for the deacon to cease wearing it. ** There may be a myriad of reasons, all innocent, as to why the deacon wears that particular dalmatic, and none of them may have anything to do with a desire to be a “mini-priest.” Of course, if that’s the reason he’s wearing it, the matter is still between him and his pastor, and none of our business…

Sure it is, particularly when the deacon does everything he can do to act like a priest. I remember how shocked and confused he looked then he was told to distribute Holy Communion from the chalice (which is correct for a deacon.)

I remember well when he tried one time to explain just before the final dismissal that he was not a priest. The celebrant had an annoyed look on his face and the faithful in the pews had looks as if they were smelling something that was rotten. Shortly thereafter he stopped wearing a dalmatic.

 

[Spiller]

However, if the deacon’s vesture meets the requirements of the rubrics, then our personal aesthetic is irrelevant.

No, it’s not…

 

[Spiller]

I would suspect that in many cases, the parishes lack dalmatics for the deacons to wear, and the deacons lack funds to purchase their own.

The parishes may be unable to shoulder the burden for the expense of dalmatics for the deacons to wear, as they would need a dalmatic for, at least, each liturgical color, if not each season.

Furthermore, in my parish, our pastor does not wear a chasuble except for the highest holy days. Because of several compounding health issues, he has been permitted by the Bishop to omit the chasuble. I would believe it to be improper for a deacon in our parish to vest in a dalmatic when our pastor is not wearing a chasuble. In fact, when a deacon assists, he is vested in an alb and stole.

That’s a bona fide liturgical abuse.

 

[ThuribleGuy45]

Speaking for my corner of New England: I know of pastors who have forbidden their deacons from wearing dalmatics because of the “confusion” issue, never mind the GIRM. Parishes I know tend to have older vestments a d there may be concerns that new dalmatics wouldn’t be an exact match. Good quality dalmatics seem to run $300-$500, and no parish around here - with closings and consolidations looming - has funds to buy dalmatics. I know maybe 20 deacons in our diocese, and maybe a couple of them have had a stole bought for them, never mind dalmatics.

 

[Spiller]

…I agree that focusing on a reverent, worshipful atmosphere will eventually manifest itself in the proper vestments. But it works the other way, too: **using reverent vestments which lift the mass to greater solemnity can also foster an atmosphere of greater awe and wonder at a mass. **It works both ways, and both ways must be used. I would never advocate focusing on one at the expense of the other. Some places just need some extra help with the one aspect and may be doing pretty well with the other.

It all depends…

At my Eastern parish, our deacon is so darned spiritual, learned, bright, caring and downright liturgically competent that his rather formal vestments perfectly underscore who he is. His very formal STICHARION (alb), DALAMTIC, ORARION (stole) and EPIMANIKIA (cuffs) look wonderful on him.

At my Western parish our deacon has none of these qualities. Dressing him up causes feelings of anger or hilarity depending on the person and the deacons own performance for the day. I can still remember him vested in an alb and white dalmatic topped by a purple stole and barely fit over his bloated frame. The liturgical equivalent of the Full Cleveland. It suited him perfectly…

 

[Brendan]

. I can still remember him vested in an alb and white dalmatic topped by a purple stole …

Yep, there is a problem there too.

The rubrics say the dalmatic is worn OVER the stole.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

MusicMan;3823160:

However, if the deacon’s vesture meets the requirements of the rubrics, then our personal aesthetic is irrelevant.

No, it’s not…

When Spiller and I find ourselves agreeing, something is horribly askew somewhere…

But in any case, i completely disagree that our personal aesthetic is irrelevant so long as the rubrics are followed. If we have comments or suggestions, we should express them. If i wish to see my deacon in a dalmatic because it helps create a more reverent atmosphere for me to worship in, i could humbly bring it up with the pastor or deacon. If i wish to see mass ad orientam for the same reason, though the rubrics allow mass versus populum, i can and should humbly mention it to my pastor. If i wish to hear more gregorian chant, though parishes are allowed to use other “suitable” songs, i can and should mention it.

Unfortunately, there are many, many options in the rubrics, some a bit vague. Even if something at mass satisfies the lowest expectations of the rubrics, i still have the right to request and encourage other options, which may be more solemn, because they are perfectly legal, too.

That’s a bona fide liturgical abuse.

Well, yes it is, usually, but i would say it isnt in this case because his bishop allows him to do without it for health reasons. I dont know what that could possibly be… Does his health also restrict him from wearing coats, jackets, ponchos, etc etc? But at least he cared enough to get permission.

Speaking for my corner of New England: I know of pastors who have forbidden their deacons from wearing dalmatics because of the “confusion” issue, never mind the GIRM. Parishes I know tend to have older vestments a d there may be concerns that new dalmatics wouldn’t be an exact match. Good quality dalmatics seem to run $300-$500, and no parish around here - with closings and consolidations looming - has funds to buy dalmatics. I know maybe 20 deacons in our diocese, and maybe a couple of them have had a stole bought for them, never mind dalmatics.

We all agree on this thread that lack of funds is an acceptable reason not to wear a dalmatic. However, i don’t think its an acceptable reason not to TRY. I’ve read stories of congregations being surprisingly generous in second collections if they are told they are donating towards vestments to increase the beauty and solemnity of the liturgy. Its something they woudl feel comfortable paying for, since they can concretely experience the benefits of their donation every day they attend mass, which is usually not the case.

Yep, there is a problem there too.

The rubrics say the dalmatic is worn OVER the stole.

I cant tell you how sick i am of seeing my priests wearing their stoles over their chasuble. If you want to show it off, wear a smaller chasuble (fiddleback…? )

 

[japhy]

However, if the deacon’s vesture meets the requirements of the rubrics, then our personal aesthetic is irrelevant.

There goes “pastoral” out the window.

 

[THurifer2]

Thank you.

This is a great example of why i dont really like the GIRM… Why would anyone ever want to make mass less solemn. The only “necessity” i can really see as acceptible is not having one due to last minute planning or the lack of money in the budget. I dont think most of the deacons who dont wear a dalmatic really fit into that.

Unless my parish buys dalmatics for me I wont be wearing them. I simply cannot afford it. Its not in the Girm but the Dalmatic should match in material an color (obvious on the color issue) as the priests chausible.

THe Dalmatics the two deacons in my parish wear cost over $1000 apiece.

To buy one on the cheap (200-300 range) is not a good idea…inexpensive chuasibles are very tacky looking especially if everyone else on the altar is wearing “nice” ones.

 

[THurifer2]

Speaking for my corner of New England: I know of pastors who have forbidden their deacons from wearing dalmatics because of the “confusion” issue, never mind the GIRM. Parishes I know tend to have older vestments a d there may be concerns that new dalmatics wouldn’t be an exact match. Good quality dalmatics seem to run $300-$500, and no parish around here - with closings and consolidations looming - has funds to buy dalmatics. I know maybe 20 deacons in our diocese, and maybe a couple of them have had a stole bought for them, never mind dalmatics.

THe deacon belongs to the bishop. The deacon does not answer to the priest. The priest is not the deacons boss. The priest cannot tell a deacon he cannot wear a dalmatic.

 

[jmdsc]

Unless my parish buys dalmatics for me I wont be wearing them. I simply cannot afford it. Its not in the Girm but the Dalmatic should match in material an color (obvious on the color issue) as the priests chausible.

THe Dalmatics the two deacons in my parish wear cost over $1000 apiece.

To buy one on the cheap (200-300 range) is not a good idea…inexpensive chuasibles are very tacky looking especially if everyone else on the altar is wearing “nice” ones.

Forgive me, but you are mistaken. There are plenty of small companies out there that do excellent work for a fraction of the OTC (over-the-counter) or catalog companies prices.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Speaking for my corner of New England: I know of pastors who have forbidden their deacons from wearing dalmatics because of the “confusion” issue, never mind the GIRM.

The confusion issue is a poor excuse at best. Bluntly stated, some priests feels it distracts attention from then as celebrant.

Parishes I know tend to have older vestments and there may be concerns that new dalmatics wouldn’t be an exact match.

Just look at a mass where many priests are concelebrating. The difference in their vestments is not a distraction. In my opinion, it adds to the solemnity of the mass being celebrated.

Good quality dalmatics seem to run $300-$500, and no parish around here - with closings and consolidations looming - has funds to buy dalmatics. I know maybe 20 deacons in our diocese, and maybe a couple of them have had a stole bought for them, never mind dalmatics.

I have been ordained since 1991, and have never had a parish buy either a stole, alb or dalmatic for me. They do not come cheap. Low end cost on a stole is right at $100. Low end on an alb is about &125. They can to up into the thousands. My most expensive cost me $225. For dalmatics the set I have covers the white (gold), purple and green. I did not buy the red because of the few times it would be worn during the year. Mine cost right at $500 each. And I got these about 10 years ago before I retired from my regular job. For those on the market, these are at the low end of the price range. While I feel they are nice, I have seen others that have made my eyes pop out. New eyes cost too much.

Yep, there is a problem there too.
The rubrics say the dalmatic is worn OVER the stole.

This is correct. The stole is snot worn oer the dalmatic, the dalmatic is worn over the stole.

Unless my parish buys dalmatics for me I wont be wearing them. I simply cannot afford it. Its not in the Girm but the Dalmatic should match in material an color (obvious on the color issue) as the priests chausible.

THe Dalmatics the two deacons in my parish wear cost over $1000 apiece.

They can increase by multiples from this figure.

To buy one on the cheap (200-300 range) is not a good idea…inexpensive chuasibles are very tacky looking especially if everyone else on the altar is wearing “nice” ones.

I have to agree here also. Bottom line is that those parishes who buy all these for the deacons are in the extreme minority,(under 3-5%) at least in the area I serve. And it is not the dalmatic that confuses people. I still am called father by many. At first I corrected people all the time, but after a time, it was like a broken record so much that I no longer do it just to save my breath. One priest I have been working with just laughed and told me later :I wondered how long it would take you to stop, You would do it forever if you didn’t" He was right.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[japhy]

Bluntly stated, some priests feels it distracts attention from then as celebrant.

Attention, eh? Well, unless they’re letting the deacon do more than he should, I would think that at least by level of activity, we’d know who the priest is and who the deacon is. And the priest isn’t the center of attention, anyway. I’m curious if priests celebrating the Gregorian Rite feel the same sort of distraction of attention.

This is correct. The stole is snot worn oer the dalmatic, the dalmatic is worn over the stole.

Hahahaha! Tell us how you really feel!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

And the priest isn't the center of attention, anyway.  I

)

I agree with you 100000000000000%
Prayers & blessings
Deacon ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Attention, eh? Well, unless they’re letting the deacon do more than he should, I would think that at least by level of activity, we’d know who the priest is and who the deacon is. And the priest isn’t the center of attention, anyway. I’m curious if priests celebrating the Gregorian Rite feel the same sort of distraction of attention.

Since there’s no role for the deacon in any except the solemn high mass this should not be an issue since, if that is really happening, there’s a deacon, subdeacon, priest and bishop. Usually, of course, in the good old days a priest would vest in the role of deacon or subdeacon so it was still a non-issue.

Deacon Ed

 

[MusicMan]

That’s a bona fide liturgical abuse.

This you want to argue? It’s authorized by the diocesesan bishop, and it’s his call to do so. Period.

 

[Spiller]

Forgive me, but you are mistaken. There are plenty of small companies out there that do excellent work for a fraction of the OTC (over-the-counter) or catalog companies prices.

Could you please provide a handful of URLs? Thanks.

 

[Spiller]

This you want to argue? It’s authorized by the diocesesan bishop, and it’s his call to do so. Period.

It’s still an abuse, “period.” What sort of malady could impact a priest so they couldn’t wear at least a very thin white chasuble? Sounds fishy to me.

 

[Spiller]

THe deacon belongs to the bishop. The deacon does not answer to the priest. The priest is not the deacons boss. The priest cannot tell a deacon he cannot wear a dalmatic.

I’m fairly sure a pastor can tell a deacon not to wear a dalmatic in his parish.

 

[Spiller]

…To buy one on the cheap (200-300 range) is not a good idea…inexpensive chuasibles are very tacky looking especially if everyone else on the altar is wearing “nice” ones.

Why do people make such comments? One can buy a chasuble for far less than $200.00 that looks just fine. They may not be decorated or fancy, but they are well designed – they have good lines, they are made from good materials, they drape well and they can be laundered at home:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I would certainly prefer vesting in something like this rather than only an alb and stole. In fact for about $150/each, I think I would prefer this to an ostentatious dalamatic that cost a lot more. One that looked perennially wrinkled despite my best attempts with a steamer. One that smelled because airing it out was not enough. One that I had to drag to the dry cleaners where they still couldn’t remove the sweat stains…