Dead vs Living

[DianJo]

I think your proposed “easy salvation plan” was proposed by the rich man (in the parable) and rejected by Abraham. Why? Because we have “Moses and the Prophets” - let’s hear them.

I was thinking the same thing!
Luke 16:19-31 The story of the rich man and Lazarus.
The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his father’s house because he had 5 brothers, so that Lazarus might warn them. Abraham said, " They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them." And the rich man said. “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.” Abraham said to the rich man, “If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”

There you go…There have been so many times that saints and other people who have gone before us have “appeared” to those still living and people have called them hallucinations or said the person was delusional, etc. Why do you think people would believe if the dead should rise?

Jesus left us with FAITH - the ability to believe without seeing. He left us the proof in His Church - one that can be seen. Jesus was the deliverer of all that the Father wanted us to know. He sent His Son in the FLESH AND HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD! If there are those who don’t believe after that, then why would you think they change their minds?

 

[CB_Catholic]

God incarnate was physically here on earth and you know what? The overwhelming majority rejected Him. I can’t imagine something beter than God Incarnate.

To my mind, this is one of the best answers. Jesus was here physically, worked numerous miracles among the people, healed the sick, raised the dead, taught them directly, rose from the dead, ascended visibly into heaven and still was rejected. What makes anyone think we would act any differently?

This reminds me of when man walked on the moon. We could see the pictures of the surface of the moon, see the astronaut walk on it, hear his voice, see the pictures of the earth from outer space, etc., and there are people who still don’t believe it happened and think it’s a conspiracy or something. Mankind has not changed much in 2000 years.

 

[expectthebest]

God incarnate was physically here on earth and you know what? The overwhelming majority rejected Him. I can’t imagine something beter than God Incarnate.

He was here in His human body. Not His glorified body. Big difference. Also, many, many were converted by directly seeing miracles with no doubt that Jesus made them.

 

[expectthebest]

I think your proposed “easy salvation plan” was proposed by the rich man (in the parable) and rejected by Abraham. Why? Because we have “Moses and the Prophets” - let’s hear them.

Hmmm…I think direct testimony from someone actually suffering through hell would be quite convincing. It would make the philisophical real in a sense.

 

[davidv]

Hmmm…I think direct testimony from someone actually suffering through hell would be quite convincing. It would make the philisophical real in a sense.

So, you don’t take Jesus at His word?

See his quote from Luke 16:31 in one of the prior posts.

 

[expectthebest]

Yes, I can. How can I know this? Because God doesn’t do it.

No, that still doesn’t make sense. That woud be like saying God wants people to suffer because he doesn’t stop it. I’m not sure we have the capcity to know as finite beings.

You are mistaken, but not for the reason you think. Each of us will undergo personal judgment upon our deaths and the general judgment at the end of the world. They are separate events.

All through our lives God gives us opportunities to live according the grace we’ve been given. People choose to harden their hearts and so live as sinners, going day to day with no remorse and no intention of repenting. The more they sin, the more they harden their hearts until they are incapable of seeing God without the distortions of their hardened hearts and minds blinding them.

Consider the servant in the parable who made the excuse for not investing his talent: “I knew you were a hard man, reaping where you did not sow.” In other words, “I didn’t stand a chance anyway because you, Master, are unjust.” And that is the constant cry of the hardened heart–“It’s all God’s fault, not mine.”

I don’t disagree. But, this wasn’t my point.

People WILL not see God as loving, not that God isn’t loving, and so they condemn themselves.

For many that is true. But that is not the only reason for people committing mortal sin.

 

[expectthebest]

To my mind, this is one of the best answers. Jesus was here physically, worked numerous miracles among the people, healed the sick, raised the dead, taught them directly, rose from the dead, ascended visibly into heaven and still was rejected. What makes anyone think we would act any differently?

This reminds me of when man walked on the moon. We could see the pictures of the surface of the moon, see the astronaut walk on it, hear his voice, see the pictures of the earth from outer space, etc., and there are people who still don’t believe it happened and think it’s a conspiracy or something. Mankind has not changed much in 2000 years.

I’m not saying that everyone would be saved! But more surely would. But nobody has answered the original question. Why does God not allow interaction between the living and the dead on a grand scale?

 

[mlchance]

I’m not saying that everyone would be saved! But more surely would. But nobody has answered the original question. Why does God not allow interaction between the living and the dead on a grand scale?

He does. It’s called the Communion of the Saints. That this may be inadequate in your estimation doesn’t much matter since neither you nor I have any sufficiently informed estimation to judge God.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[expectthebest]

Is my original quesiton not something that can be answered? Do we just not know why? If this is the case, let me know. Because all the answers so far do not address this directly.
Thanks.

 

[HelenaMT]

Is my original quesiton not something that can be answered? Do we just not know why? If this is the case, let me know. Because all the answers so far do not address this directly.
Thanks.

If anyone had an answer to this question, they would truly know the mind of God, so it’s doubtful you’ll ever find one definitive answer to the question that will completely reassure you.

I’ve read many threads on this forum having to do with why God doesn’t allow us direct, incontrovertible proof of His existence or the existence of an afterlife, and have never heard an answer that would convince someone who believed such proof was necessary.

You’ll have to either read about and speculate on it yourself until you find a rationale that makes sense to you, or give up on trying to know, and just accept that it’s not how God set it up, and maybe you’ll know why in the next life.

 

[placido]

Is my original quesiton not something that can be answered? Do we just not know why? If this is the case, let me know. Because all the answers so far do not address this directly.
Thanks.

Any answer as to WHY, would be a blatant speculation. Do you want us to go down that road yet?

 

[placido]

If anyone had an answer to this question, they would truly know the mind of God, so it’s doubtful you’ll ever find one definitive answer to the question that will completely reassure you.

I’ve read many threads on this forum having to do with why God doesn’t allow us direct, incontrovertible proof of His existence or the existence of an afterlife, and have never heard an answer that would convince someone who believed such proof was necessary.

You’ll have to either read about and speculate on it yourself until you find a rationale that makes sense to you, or give up on trying to know, and just accept that it’s not how God set it up, and maybe you’ll know why in the next life.

Exactly!

 

[expectthebest]

If anyone had an answer to this question, they would truly know the mind of God, so it’s doubtful you’ll ever find one definitive answer to the question that will completely reassure you.

The Church would not have to know the mind of God to difine this. What I have learned is that the Church has not defined it and nobody knows why. Thanks.

 

[placido]

The Church would not have to know the mind of God to difine this. What I have learned is that the Church has not defined it and nobody knows why. Thanks.

… and to know WHY is not necessary for your salvation either.

 

[expectthebest]

… and to know WHY is not necessary for your salvation either.

Maybe, maybe not. For those who would be saved by this kind of interaction, it is very important.

 

[Fnord]

I am saying openly communicate. Nothing secretive. Whether through audible speech or actuall appearance doesn’t matter. Wouldn’t direct communication with the Church Triuphant be a wonderful thing? Even better, Jesus Himself! There wouldn’t be a need for all this speculation. There wouldn’t be a need for arguing within or outside of the Church. It seems to me that if God would allow such a thing, many more would be saved. I’m not talking about sayonces or anything. I’m talking about God allowing direct communication with the entire Communion of Staints as a source of knowlege and inspiration.

What speculation? Protip: God does allow direct communion with all the saints in heaven as well as with himself.

 

[expectthebest]

What speculation? Protip: God does allow direct communion with all the saints in heaven as well as with himself.

I’m not talking about spiritual communion. I’m talking about communication.