Dealing people who are cafiteria catholics

[Frankenfurter]

With an open mind, ask them to discuss why they believe the church gets it wrong. Let THEM describe their reasons for not agreeing with what the church says.

Let THEM defend their position.

Once you take it to heart (and it is best to just tackle one issue at a time), you can begin to show them what the church actually teaches and WHY.

Most times,folks have just got a wrong set of facts about the reasons for church teaching.

But don’t make any assumptions about what they believe. That turns people off quickly.

 

[TimothyH]

The first step in “dealing” with Catholics who don’t believe everything the Church teaches is to stop insulting them with the “Cafeteria Catholic” label.

We don’t know how pleasing their soul is to God and if we examined ourselves honestly we would find that none of us truly accept all that the Church teaches, nor do we follow the commandments faithfully.

And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last." (Luke 13:30)

Family members are not people to be “dealt with.” They are human beings who are to be loved in spite of their shortcomings.

-Tim-

 

[guanophore]

My dear friends in Christ,
I was wondering if anyone has dealt with catholic family members who are cafeteria Catholics. In other words people who believe only what they choose to of the teachings of the church.
Divine mercy tells us to teach people about what they don’t know or refuse to acknowledge about the teachings, however I’m having a hard time with doing this.

Thanks for reading this.

Love and Peace in Christ

C.

I think most American Catholic famiiies have Cafeteria members nowadays. It is a reflection on the abysmal catechesis of the 60’s and 70’s bearing it’s rotten fruit.

When it comes to family members, sometimes it is best just to live one’s faith with integrity, and to pray for them. As Jesus said, a prophet is not without honor, except in his own home.

Everyone is a sinner to some degree. At what point does it earn the label “cafeteria”?

This is a good question. An obedient Catholic will submit their lack of knowledge and agreement to Church, having faith that God has kept His promise to lead the Church into all Truth. A humble person will take the attitude of St. Thomas, of “Lord, help my unbelief!”

One who lacks obedience and humility will disregard what has been preserved infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit in favor of their own will and opinions. Such a one will also fail to study to show themselves approved unto God, and reject parts of their faith without attempting to learn why the Church teaches what she does.

 

[rose_kelly]

The first step in “dealing” with Catholics who don’t believe everything the Church teaches is to stop insulting them with the “Cafeteria Catholic” label.

We don’t know how pleasing their soul is to God and if we examined ourselves honestly we would find that none of us truly accept all that the Church teaches, nor do we follow the commandments faithfully.

And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last." (Luke 13:30)

Family members are not people to be “dealt with.” They are human beings who are to be loved in spite of their shortcomings.

-Tim-

I agree.

In the past I too struggled to understand some of the teachings, indecisiveness is what it was, more than rebelliousness. And if I’m honest I still occasionally have those questioning moments.

But having said that I love and respect the church, we need its authoritative guidance and direction. .

 

[mattp0625]

I also have a lot of this in my circles.

There are so many pressures as mentioned above - secularization of society, poor formation, life issues, etc.

You cannot force the issue. I try to pick my spots where the opportunity arises and, in the meantime, I also communicate my beliefs by example. I am not perfect by any means, but I try my best in this regard with my family and friends.

Try to encourage understanding and forgiveness.

 

[mathematoons]

Maybe it would be more clear if we stopped using the phrase “cafeteria Catholics” and started calling them what the Catechism calls them: heretics. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” (CCC 2089.) If we wish to be specific about the most common type of heretics, we can call them modernists (since radical “traditionalists” are also heretics).

 

[guanophore]

Maybe it would be more clear if we stopped using the phrase “cafeteria Catholics” and started calling them what the Catechism calls them: heretics. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” (CCC 2089.) If we wish to be specific about the most common type of heretics, we can call them modernists (since radical “traditionalists” are also heretics).

The problem is that most Catholics who have espoused heretical ideas have never studied their faith. They are poorly catechized, or have left the church for emotional reasons, rather than doctrinal.

I think the answer is catechesis and spiritual formation, which, sadly, is not as available in Catholic parishes as it is in Protestant communities.

Most "cafeteria’ Catholics have become Protestants, but don’t realize it.

 

[LethalMouse]

Everyone is a sinner to some degree. At what point does it earn the label “cafeteria”?

Claim Catholic as their religion, but technically hold their own beliefs…one could argue they are essentially nondenominational christians that pick a church to mark down on forms.

 

[guanophore]

Everyone is a sinner to some degree. At what point does it earn the label “cafeteria”?

At the point where the individual believes that the practice of accepting what one likes of the faith, and rejecting what they do not is acceptable.

The Faith is One. When threads begin to get pulled out, the whole garment starts to unravel. We recevied One Faith from the Apostles, and it is our responsibility to hold that unity intact. It is not our perogative to pick and choose which parts of the divine revelation suit our preferences. Jesus is One with His Holy Bride, the Church. It is an all or nothing deal. Either we receive Him, and all that He taught, or we reject HIm, and decide we can pick and choose.

 

[mathematoons]

The problem is that most Catholics who have espoused heretical ideas have never studied their faith. They are poorly catechized, or have left the church for emotional reasons, rather than doctrinal.

I think the answer is catechesis and spiritual formation, which, sadly, is not as available in Catholic parishes as it is in Protestant communities.

Most "cafeteria’ Catholics have become Protestants, but don’t realize it.

The problem with that is that nearly every faith-related conversation I have had with any “Catholic” goes like this:

Them: I don’t believe XYZ.
Me: But the Church teaches XYZ as unchangeable truth.
Them: [condescendingly] I don’t believe everything the Church teaches.

“They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. … If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if one rise again from the dead.”

 

[TeilhardRocks]

Maybe it would be more clear if we stopped using the phrase “cafeteria Catholics” and started calling them what the Catechism calls them: heretics. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” (CCC 2089.) If we wish to be specific about the most common type of heretics, we can call them modernists (since radical “traditionalists” are also heretics).

The idea of a cafeteria Catholic saddens me and hits close to home as does the idea put forth that cafeteria Catholics are heretics.

Until relatively recently I certainly was a heretic. I was baptized as an infant, I went to catholic school, but one way or another I missed what it really about. Not only did I not think of myself as Catholic; I didn’t even identify myself as Christian - that put me a step or two past cafeteria Catholic. I never actually believed in God as someone who cared about me or was for me or in anyway present in the now. I should have known better, my family went to mass occasionally, the opportunities where there. I was inattentive, prideful and dismissive so it is my fault. Previously I tended to feel some of the things were just the Catholic Church being anti-sex, patriarchal, outdated, etc. I had a fairly childish notion that teachings and positions were based on “Because I told you so” instead of any interior logic or truth. Yes, I was a heretic.

So what about now? My uncle, who is very religious, used the term cafeteria Catholic against me at my cousin’s wedding reception while interrogating me regarding my having received communion. If family members have such difficulty at the prospect of me being sincere I probably have little hope of convincing others.

Yes, I have doubts about teachings. Yes, I sometimes feel like my life will never line up. Yes, it looks like I pick and choose. Does this really make me a heretic/cafeteria Catholic? I think the real issue is that in this cafeteria I still have the under developed palette of a toddler. I have no idea what all this stuff is or how much of what I should be getting. What I do know is that what is on my plate so far seems like the best thing ever!

What have I been picking and choosing? I chose to accept that God is real and Jesus is not some quaint antiquated relic of long ago. He is now. He came, taught, lived, suffered, died not just then, not just for others - but also for me. I finally tasted that I am profoundly loved by the real God. A God whose love is unwavering and enveloping and completely undeserved. That is a lot to have on my plate!

I look like an idiot all the time and it is very humbling. I never know when I am going to be called on to try to explain or defend myself. Everyone else seems to know how to balance out their lunch trays with all the grown up food but I am just holding up the line grinning like a fool. It feels like any minute my tray will crash to the floor with a bang then everyone will turn to stare and go “ooo-ooooo.”

I still am working on developing my palette; I am sure there are others working on it too. I am starting to see how the Church creates healthy meals and nourishes me. I’ve had real food now; there is no way I can go back to the old junk. The prayer admitting that I am not worthy for the Lord to enter under my roof is, in my case, undeniable. Prior to believing I made many assumptions about the Church’s views and my information regarding them typically came from sources outside the Church. I did not see a value in evaluating the whats or whys so I did not see the rigorous thought or underlying principles behind many of the church’s positions.

A description of me as Cafeteria Catholic seems reductive and heretic doesn’t seem right either. So when you find people like me please don’t give us silly name or try to kick us out. We are working to understand. Besides, where else would you have us go?

 

[guanophore]

The idea of a cafeteria Catholic saddens me and hits close to home as does the idea put forth that cafeteria Catholics are heretics.

Until relatively recently I certainly was a heretic. I was baptized as an infant, I went to catholic school, but one way or another I missed what it really about. Not only did I not think of myself as Catholic; I didn’t even identify myself as Christian - that put me a step or two past cafeteria Catholic. I never actually believed in God as someone who cared about me or was for me or in anyway present in the now. I should have known better, my family went to mass occasionally, the opportunities where there. I was inattentive, prideful and dismissive so it is my fault. Previously I tended to feel some of the things were just the Catholic Church being anti-sex, patriarchal, outdated, etc. I had a fairly childish notion that teachings and positions were based on “Because I told you so” instead of any interior logic or truth. Yes, I was a heretic.

No, you don’t qualify for the title “heretic”. You would have had to be better catechized, and understand why the Church has these teachings. Understanding and accepting the faith is a requirement to be a heretic. I used to be the same way. I did not understand that being Catholic is all or nothing, and one cannot pick and choose which doctrines one likes and which one does not.

   So what about now?  My uncle, who is very religious, used the term cafeteria Catholic against me at my cousin's wedding reception while interrogating me regarding my having received communion. If family members have such difficulty at the prospect of me being sincere I probably have little hope of convincing others.

It is not the place of anyone to judge your faith. You should not present yourself for communion if you do not accept all that the church believes and teaches, even if you don’t yet understand it. You must assent that the church belongs to Jesus, and so do you, and if you don’t understand it yet, then you will by the time He is finished with you.

Yes, I have doubts about teachings. Yes, I sometimes feel like my life will never line up. Yes, it looks like I pick and choose. Does this really make me a heretic/cafeteria Catholic?

Doubts do not. You can submit your doubts to God. Obedience is the key. If you obey, even if you don’t understand then you are practicing your faith.

I think the real issue is that in this cafeteria I still have the under developed palette of a toddler. I have no idea what all this stuff is or how much of what I should be getting. What I do know is that what is on my plate so far seems like the best thing ever!

Sadly most Catholics have the spiritual formation of a child. We get some good catechesis when we are little, then after we get our sacraments of initiation, don’t move forward to study our faith. This happened to me also.

What have I been picking and choosing? I chose to accept that God is real and Jesus is not some quaint antiquated relic of long ago. He is now. He came, taught, lived, suffered, died not just then, not just for others - but also for me. I finally tasted that I am profoundly loved by the real God. A God whose love is unwavering and enveloping and completely undeserved. That is a lot to have on my plate!

But this is where it all begins. No one can grow in faith until one has this foundation.

I look like an idiot all the time and it is very humbling. I never know when I am going to be called on to try to explain or defend myself. Everyone else seems to know how to balance out their lunch trays with all the grown up food but I am just holding up the line grinning like a fool. It feels like any minute my tray will crash to the floor with a bang then everyone will turn to stare and go “ooo-ooooo.”

You are right, it does keep us humble. You are in the right place. I have learned more since I came to CAF than I did in 40 years prior!

I still am working on developing my palette; I am sure there are others working on it too. I am starting to see how the Church creates healthy meals and nourishes me. I’ve had real food now; there is no way I can go back to the old junk. The prayer admitting that I am not worthy for the Lord to enter under my roof is, in my case, undeniable. Prior to believing I made many assumptions about the Church’s views and my information regarding them typically came from sources outside the Church. I did not see a value in evaluating the whats or whys so I did not see the rigorous thought or underlying principles behind many of the church’s positions.

It is this ignorance that makes you poorly catechized, and not a heretic. If you were to go back, knowing what you know now, things would be different.

 A description of me as Cafeteria Catholic seems reductive and heretic doesn't seem right either. So when you find people like me please don't give us silly name or try to kick us out. We are working to understand. Besides, where else would you have us go?

You are home, and you just need spiritual formation. The key is to submit to the teachings of the Church, even if you don’t understand, knowing that understanding will come.

 

[phil19034]

Maybe it would be more clear if we stopped using the phrase “cafeteria Catholics” and started calling them what the Catechism calls them: heretics. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” (CCC 2089.) If we wish to be specific about the most common type of heretics, we can call them modernists (since radical “traditionalists” are also heretics).

Cafeteria Catholics are not necessarily heretics. Dissent Catholics are. Cafeteria Catholics “pick and choose” due to poor knowledge of the Catachsim, not due to being heretical. While they sometimes might sound like they are heretics, it’s because they fail to understand Church teaching. A Heretic understands Church teaching and rejects it

 

[kozlosap]

Cafeteria Catholics are not necessarily heretics. Dissent Catholics are. Cafeteria Catholics “pick and choose” due to poor knowledge of the Catachsim, not due to being heretical. While they sometimes might sound like they are heretics, it’s because they fail to understand Church teaching. A Heretic understands Church teaching and rejects it

I’ll use my 30 year old daughter as an example. She is a delightful young woman who attended Catholic schools from K - her JD from Loyola Law. She certainly understands the CCC, but, is at odds with the teachings on contraception and fertility treatments such as IVF. I guess she would call herself a Cafeteria Catholic, but not an heretic.

 

[guanophore]

I’ll use my 30 year old daughter as an example. She is a delightful young woman who attended Catholic schools from K - her JD from Loyola Law. She certainly understands the CCC, but, is at odds with the teachings on contraception and fertility treatments such as IVF. I guess she would call herself a Cafeteria Catholic, but not an heretic.

She doesn’t know she is a heretic.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

It is also possible that she really does not understand WHY the church teaches what it does. She may never have read Theology of the Body, for instance. If that is the case, it is her duty to study what the Church teaches to prevent herself from being a heretic.

 

[Memaw]

I think most American Catholic famiiies have Cafeteria members nowadays. It is a reflection on the abysmal catechesis of the 60’s and 70’s bearing it’s rotten fruit.

When it comes to family members, sometimes it is best just to live one’s faith with integrity, and to pray for them. As Jesus said, a prophet is not without honor, except in his own home.

This is a good question. An obedient Catholic will submit their lack of knowledge and agreement to Church, having faith that God has kept His promise to lead the Church into all Truth. A humble person will take the attitude of St. Thomas, of “Lord, help my unbelief!”

One who lacks obedience and humility will disregard what has been preserved infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit in favor of their own will and opinions. Such a one will also fail to study to show themselves approved unto God, and reject parts of their faith without attempting to learn why the Church teaches what she does.

AMEN. I agree. To question is to learn, if studied properly. To “do your own thing” is to go against Church teaching and deny TRUTH .I know what you mean about the “abysmal catechizes” of the late 60’s -80’s. I taught all thru that time, but I was VERY fortunate to have taught in a parish where the Pastor kept us on the correct Church teaching. He had workshops for us teachers and also brought in wonderful speakers like Fr. Robert Fox and Fr. William Most etc. We had a very faithful Dr, and a lady in our parish that kept us on the true “right to life” path. It’s never to late to learn what is true. God Bless, Memaw

 

[phil19034]

I’ll use my 30 year old daughter as an example. She is a delightful young woman who attended Catholic schools from K - her JD from Loyola Law. She certainly understands the CCC, but, is at odds with the teachings on contraception and fertility treatments such as IVF. I guess she would call herself a Cafeteria Catholic, but not an heretic.

I’m 38. I know many people who went to Catholic school and college their whole lives and they don’t understand Catholic teaching.

Heck, I’ve met at least one priest who is a heretic.

There are actually two kinds of heretics. The formal heretic and the material heretic (also called objective heretic). The first is a heretic who is guilty of not believing what the Church teaches and understands the teaching. The 2nd has less culpability of being a heretic due to upbringing, education, etc. The material heretic typically lacks a full understanding of the teaching they “disagree” with so they are not 100% culpable of their heresy.

But the term “Cafeteria Catholic” is a kinder term for the material or objective heretic, while “Dissident Catholic” is often used for the formal heretic.

Formal heretics are most often dissident priests, religions, lay theologians, etc; but they can also be regular lay people as well.

Again, most “Cafeteria Catholics” are “material heretics” because most of them do not object to the true teaching of the Church. They object to what they think is the teaching of the Church or they object to what they think is the “why” vs. the real “why.”

Furthermore, Cafeteria Catholics typically do not publicly go around spreading their heretical beliefs (except maybe within their own immediate family). While dissent Catholics will picket in front the Cathedrals, give public speeches regarding how their Catholicism teaches that they should be pro-abortion, write books bashing Church teachings and the Bishops, create or join organizations that promote the changing of Dogma, etc.

 

[Waylon102]

Most people, including Catholics do not believe you have to be a member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved even though it has been declared so on at least three occasions. Now people interpret that as being Christian regardless of the denomination. Are we saved by Christ’s Church as the Church always taught (at least until the middle of the last century) or is any organization founded by mere fallible man sufficient? The Church today is so worried about being politically correct that it tries to sweep the dogma of ex ecclesia nulla salus under the rug. After all, we can’ t offend people. That is just mean! It is easy to see why the current state of evangelization is a sorry mess. God help us!

 

[guanophore]

Most people, including Catholics do not believe you have to be a member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved even though it has been declared so on at least three occasions. Now people interpret that as being Christian regardless of the denomination. Are we saved by Christ’s Church as the Church always taught (at least until the middle of the last century) or is any organization founded by mere fallible man sufficient? The Church today is so worried about being politically correct that it tries to sweep the dogma of ex ecclesia nulla salus under the rug. After all, we can’ t offend people. That is just mean! It is easy to see why the current state of evangelization is a sorry mess. God help us!

I don’t think this is an accurate representation of the doctrine, or the teaching of the church. The CCC has approached this issue from a positive, rather than a negative viewpoint, but the doctrine has not changed.

There is no other name under which we can be saved but Jesus Christ. He has chosen to save all persons through His One Body, the Church, therefore, there is no salvation outside of the Church.

No one is saved by an organization, including Catholics. We are saved by grace, through faith.

I will add my prayer to yours that God will help us, beginning with Catholics understanding and accepting what the Church teaches.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I know there is a day in the chaplet of Divine Mercy that addresses the “lukewarm,” but I would suggest that those who are ordering carte blanche, are at least IN the right cafeteria!

…

Exactly !!!