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exoflare
Guest
I see you’re still venting about the attack on your beloved relativism from that other thread lol.
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exoflare
Guest
What are the “effeminate” behaviors he shows you have concerns with, exactly? All I saw was that he’s not into sports and still plays with toys at age 12 but those aren’t really problems. Both those things described me at that age and I never came remotely close to questioning my sexuality. I was also very much alienated from my peers and couldn’t connect with them emotionally but that turned out to be Asperger’s.
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TriciaF
Guest
Anyone treating him as effeminate might make him feel judged and pressured. He’ll be alright if he’s allowed to develop in his own time. Everybody’s different. One of my sons developed slower and he has ended up doing remarkably well, and his wife is grateful for his kind sensitivity.
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Cat
Guest
Although I agree that masculinity should not be defined by football and public farting, I do think that some of the posts are assuming that nothing can be done, therefore accept who he is.
I disagree with this.
For the last thirty years, we have spent much of our spare time in ice skating rinks, and we know a lot of boys and men who figure skate. We have heard talks on the “gay issue” from male figure skaters. One of these skaters pointed out that the reason a lot of male figure skaters appear “effeminate” is that they have picked up a lot of feminine mannerisms because they spend most of their time around women.
Bingo.
So here are my suggestions.
Since so many people love sports, I consider it basic good manners and charity to learn something about their love and be prepared to support them in their fandom, especially if there is a local sports franchise that everyone in the town or city loves.
I disagree with this.
For the last thirty years, we have spent much of our spare time in ice skating rinks, and we know a lot of boys and men who figure skate. We have heard talks on the “gay issue” from male figure skaters. One of these skaters pointed out that the reason a lot of male figure skaters appear “effeminate” is that they have picked up a lot of feminine mannerisms because they spend most of their time around women.
Bingo.
So here are my suggestions.
- Just because a boy/man doesn’t like “sports” doesn’t excuse him from being in good physical condition. Make sure that the boy is in good shape. You can’t be in good shape unless you are active. Perhaps this means taking up running or swimming or various self-defense disciplines. You might want to stay away from dance or figure skating, although both of these are incredibly good workouts. But why magnify the situation?
- HIRE a voice coach to help him lower his voice and speak without feminine mannerisms. Yes, this can be learned.
- Make sure that his wardrobe is masculine. No pink or purple.
- Even if he isn’t into sports, make sure that he KNOWS about sports–this can and SHOULD be learned, especially by men, and any women who works in a man’s world.
Since so many people love sports, I consider it basic good manners and charity to learn something about their love and be prepared to support them in their fandom, especially if there is a local sports franchise that everyone in the town or city loves.
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Marysann
Guest
While I do not have any knowledge of this subject, I think I have found something that may help. I remember hearing a discussion of how to help boys in this type of a situation on a Catholic Answers Live broadcast. I checked in the radio section of the website, and found it. You might find the April 11, 2012 show, “Understanding Same-Sex Attraction” with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, very interesting. He deals with this subject with knowdge, charity, and fidelity to the teachings of the Church. My prayers are with you as you try to do the best for your son.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I’m not sure I would get upset about a 12 year old playing with toys, unless they’re dolls. He’s too young for a motorcycle or a backhoe, but sometimes boys who play with toys turn into men who work with “big toys”. There isn’t much of a middle except a riding lawn mower.
I realize we’re all supposed to believe that some people are “born gay”. I don’t believe it. I do think, though, that identification with one’s same gender parent is a very big thing. I can’t demonstrate this scientifically, but I have long believed that men should engage their boys in working with them. Some kinds of work are more “manly” than others, or are at least perceived so.
I recall, as a young boy, being the family “knife sharpener”, among other things. I had an Arkansas whetstone and enjoyed impressing my mother with how sharp I could get her kitchen knives for her. I also sharpened my father’s pocket knife, axe and our weed cutter. Doing those things were among my “jobs”. My father did show me how to do it well, also how to actually cut a tree well. I don’t think my sisters ever sharpened a single knife. They just didn’t have any interest in it.
I sort of graduated to be the “tool restorer at large”. If some tool got rusty or wouldn’t work well, part of my function was to remove the rust, take them apart, repaint metal surfaces, repair grips, oil moving parts. Again, my sisters never did it once. They could have if they wanted, but evidently something like that just was of no interest to them.
Not quite “toys”, but those things were virtually “toys” to me once I mastered them. I recall going through my mother’s kitchen knives hoping to find one that really needed sharpening or even a whole new edge.
Later, I became the appointed “tire changer”, among other things. And yes, my father did it with me for a good while.
At probably age 12, I did change “toys”. I got into melting and casting metal. Some metals, like tin, zinc and lead, are easy to melt and cast. My father taught me how to make gunpowder. (he would probably be arrested for that now) and I made my own fireworks.
Now, of course, my main “toy” is a large bobcat, with a tree shear, brush hog and grapple. I greatly enjoy improving land, especially overgrown forest land. Yes, it does serve commercially useful purposes. But it really is still a “toy”, psychologically, I guess.
Now, if I could just afford a bulldozer…
Quick edit. Does he have a .22 rifle yet? At least where I live, that’s a “rite of passage” for a young man, and age 12 is hardly too young. Part of it too, is learning safety, how to take it apart and put it back together again, and keep it clean and in good working order.
My dad wouldn’t give me any bullets until I could take the rifle apart and put it back together again, and show him how to deal with it safely.
Initially, one can buy those low-load “shorts”; bullets that are not a whole lot more dangerous than a pellet gun. You can actually perceive the time lapse between firing and hearing it hit the target, they’re so slow.
I realize we’re all supposed to believe that some people are “born gay”. I don’t believe it. I do think, though, that identification with one’s same gender parent is a very big thing. I can’t demonstrate this scientifically, but I have long believed that men should engage their boys in working with them. Some kinds of work are more “manly” than others, or are at least perceived so.
I recall, as a young boy, being the family “knife sharpener”, among other things. I had an Arkansas whetstone and enjoyed impressing my mother with how sharp I could get her kitchen knives for her. I also sharpened my father’s pocket knife, axe and our weed cutter. Doing those things were among my “jobs”. My father did show me how to do it well, also how to actually cut a tree well. I don’t think my sisters ever sharpened a single knife. They just didn’t have any interest in it.
I sort of graduated to be the “tool restorer at large”. If some tool got rusty or wouldn’t work well, part of my function was to remove the rust, take them apart, repaint metal surfaces, repair grips, oil moving parts. Again, my sisters never did it once. They could have if they wanted, but evidently something like that just was of no interest to them.
Not quite “toys”, but those things were virtually “toys” to me once I mastered them. I recall going through my mother’s kitchen knives hoping to find one that really needed sharpening or even a whole new edge.
Later, I became the appointed “tire changer”, among other things. And yes, my father did it with me for a good while.
At probably age 12, I did change “toys”. I got into melting and casting metal. Some metals, like tin, zinc and lead, are easy to melt and cast. My father taught me how to make gunpowder. (he would probably be arrested for that now) and I made my own fireworks.
Now, of course, my main “toy” is a large bobcat, with a tree shear, brush hog and grapple. I greatly enjoy improving land, especially overgrown forest land. Yes, it does serve commercially useful purposes. But it really is still a “toy”, psychologically, I guess.
Now, if I could just afford a bulldozer…
Quick edit. Does he have a .22 rifle yet? At least where I live, that’s a “rite of passage” for a young man, and age 12 is hardly too young. Part of it too, is learning safety, how to take it apart and put it back together again, and keep it clean and in good working order.
My dad wouldn’t give me any bullets until I could take the rifle apart and put it back together again, and show him how to deal with it safely.
Initially, one can buy those low-load “shorts”; bullets that are not a whole lot more dangerous than a pellet gun. You can actually perceive the time lapse between firing and hearing it hit the target, they’re so slow.
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EasterJoy
Guest
He is 12 years old, and he’s supposed to fake an interest in sports so that he can engage in small-talk at the office? He’s supposed to fake being a fan when he’s not?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big sports fan, but why on earth do I need “support in my fandom” from people who don’t give two figs about sports? I’m happy if they just let me watch the game without pouting about it.
Worse yet, are you suggesting I’m supposed to become conversant in the world of Justin Beiber and Star Trek, so I can charitably support other fans in their “fandom”? Please, tell me we aren’t going there.
I have actually heard a priest say he wouldn’t wear the vestments for Gaudete or Laetare Sunday because “I don’t do pink.” And purple, too? That sort of cuts into the liturgical assortmetn. That is nuts. Drop it with the color prejudices, already.
I have also heard people discuss whether Scott Hamilton was gay, even though he lives with his wife and two kids. Drop that, too, please.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Remember, too, the older brother. First off, plunking younger brother into a Steelers jersey isn’t likely to delight him. The vision of a young man who is obviously has no future awaiting him in the NFL is going to give the older brother an opening to tease him further. (I have brothers, I know whereof I speak) Furthermore, it is of course only going to be charitable for the older brother to be forced to “support the fandom” of whatever younger brother is interested in. Do you want to predict what is going to happen when older brother is forced to wear a Harry Potter T-shirt? Yes, it is charitable to take an interest in some things for the sole reason that someone you love is interested in it, but that can be taken too far, with bad results. Sometimes charity is best lived by the maxim “Live and let live”.
Fitness is a great idea, but for its own sake. Keep in mind that the disturbing dreams of the father might have had to do with the overwhelming feeling that he was being “attacked” by his struggle with this kind of question. Things are hard enough as it is; better to give the young fellow advice that will give him feelings of self-confidence and the ability to master his surroundings and his social life while being true to himself. That is what men ought to do.
Fitness is a great idea, but for its own sake. Keep in mind that the disturbing dreams of the father might have had to do with the overwhelming feeling that he was being “attacked” by his struggle with this kind of question. Things are hard enough as it is; better to give the young fellow advice that will give him feelings of self-confidence and the ability to master his surroundings and his social life while being true to himself. That is what men ought to do.
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seekerz
Guest
The boy is at school, in contact with other boys…he has an older brother - what else does he need for masculine modelling? Getting him coaches to “teach” him how to be more ‘masculine’ when the other boys around him did not need those is only going to make him feel like there’s something wrong with him. With respect, I think that yours is just the kind of advice he does NOT need and it has very little to do with the more substantial point of the OP, the possibility of him questioning his sexual identity.
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Bill_7154
Guest
I think this is a great idea, and think it’s great for ALL children. I have a neice who takes judo. She is very friendly and very sweet, but is chubby and also has red hair. She’s about 14. A lot of girls with her appearance will have few friends and be made fun of. I believe, in addition to the values and behaviors and beliefs that her parents have instilled in her, the taking of Judo has boosted her self-confidence quite a bit.
She is outgoing and friendly and if anyone were to attempt to make fun of her she would not stand for it. She would be direct and call them out and use her language skills to put that person in their place, and feel good about doing so.
Because of her appearance she could have a whole different lifestyle, most red haired chubby girls are not popular and outgoing. She is and I believe judo plays a part into this. It teaches self discipline, respect, things like that. If you go to a good school it’s a lot about building self esteem and respect for oneself and others and not really about ‘fighting’ at all.
I intend to get my 10 month old son involved in one or more self defense disciplines at a very early age because of this. As early as a place will take him and he can actually participate and learn where it’s not a waste of time and money. Perhaps boxing. Perhaps MMA. Perhaps Aikido, perhaps judo. I want him to learn how to defend himself and also be able to defend others, such as a female being bullied by a male. But mostly I want him to develop self confidence, discipline, physical conditioning, respect, etc. The various martial arts are great for this. And if your boy turns out to be gay, it wouldn’t hurt him to have good self-defense skills.
I’m against violence. But can you immagine your 18 yo boy being bullied by the captain of the local high school football team in front of a crowd. Your son tells the boy he doesn’t want to fight. The other boy doesn’t let it go and pushes him (or tries to) and in front of the whole school your ‘effeminate’ son puts that kid down on his *** and puts a scare into him so he needs to walk away with his tail between his legs. There are martial arts such as aikido that teach you to use your opponents body weight against him, so it can be less about punching and kicking and more about deflecting and throwing or putting the other person in a hold where they have to ‘give’, much less ‘violent’ than say, boxing. Judo is similar.
God Bless,
Bill
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Bill_7154
Guest
I’m not a sports fan at all. I don’t ever watch sports on TV and can’t engage in any sports discussions with other males. I played hockey when I was younger, but just didn’t follow sports. I don’t think it’s necessary at all either. If on like to watch/follow sports then that’s a different story. But I’d much rather see my son spend time doing things he’s intrested in and developing skills around those things.
God Bless,
Bill
I’ve been following this thread with some interest but wasn’t sure that I had anything useful to contribute.
I think I’ll step in now.
I believe Cat had some good points. I think ALL children should be encouraged to be active. But I suspect that where she lives has colored her interest in following the popular professional sports teams. I don’t think all areas world have such intense seasonal interests in particular sports such that it is necessary for non-sports fans to have such knowledge. But I think all people, whether they like sports or not, should show respect for those who do follow team sports.
What I have noticed is that a boy’s interest in sports (and I used the term sports loosely) often colors his father’s perception of whether or not that boy is “masculine” or “effeminate”. I think that many men use “sports” as their preferred method of interacting socially with other men. Whether they are playing sports or merely spectators this social interaction is likely to be competitive in nature.
In my opinion, most men equate masculinity with competitiveness.
But some boys/men just don’t seem to have much of an interest in competing physically with other boys/men. Some of these boys/men compete with themselves and/or compete in ways other than with those that require physical prowess. But some don’t seem to have much interest in competing period. I think this apparent lack of competitiveness in their sons is often vary distressing to fathers.
Getting back to physical activity… Again, I think both boys and girls should be encouraged to be physically active. Even the most non-competitive child can excel at biking, hiking, fitness running, skiing, skating, climbing, swimming, or any number of other physical activities. I am of the opinion that the most uncompetitive boy in the world will be perceived as masculine if he is physically competent in at least one area.
In my opinion, if a father thinks his son is effeminate then the father needs to look at some new way of relating to that son. Perhaps they need to take up mountain biking or backpacking together. (And the point is NOT how many miles they can cover in a day but rather to just experience nature and the scenery while getting some exercise.) There are plenty of activities that are more life skills than they are competition for entertainment.
Oh, and as far as calling someone else “gay”… No one should allow a child of either sex to use that term in a derogatory way. It doesn’t matter if it is true or if it is false. And there are not nearly as many reasons as some might suppose to use that word in a non-derogatory way.
I think I’ll step in now.
I believe Cat had some good points. I think ALL children should be encouraged to be active. But I suspect that where she lives has colored her interest in following the popular professional sports teams. I don’t think all areas world have such intense seasonal interests in particular sports such that it is necessary for non-sports fans to have such knowledge. But I think all people, whether they like sports or not, should show respect for those who do follow team sports.
What I have noticed is that a boy’s interest in sports (and I used the term sports loosely) often colors his father’s perception of whether or not that boy is “masculine” or “effeminate”. I think that many men use “sports” as their preferred method of interacting socially with other men. Whether they are playing sports or merely spectators this social interaction is likely to be competitive in nature.
In my opinion, most men equate masculinity with competitiveness.
But some boys/men just don’t seem to have much of an interest in competing physically with other boys/men. Some of these boys/men compete with themselves and/or compete in ways other than with those that require physical prowess. But some don’t seem to have much interest in competing period. I think this apparent lack of competitiveness in their sons is often vary distressing to fathers.
Getting back to physical activity… Again, I think both boys and girls should be encouraged to be physically active. Even the most non-competitive child can excel at biking, hiking, fitness running, skiing, skating, climbing, swimming, or any number of other physical activities. I am of the opinion that the most uncompetitive boy in the world will be perceived as masculine if he is physically competent in at least one area.
In my opinion, if a father thinks his son is effeminate then the father needs to look at some new way of relating to that son. Perhaps they need to take up mountain biking or backpacking together. (And the point is NOT how many miles they can cover in a day but rather to just experience nature and the scenery while getting some exercise.) There are plenty of activities that are more life skills than they are competition for entertainment.
Oh, and as far as calling someone else “gay”… No one should allow a child of either sex to use that term in a derogatory way. It doesn’t matter if it is true or if it is false. And there are not nearly as many reasons as some might suppose to use that word in a non-derogatory way.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I know many kids who really love their chosen martial art, and not because they want to go around kicking people or defending themselves. I think it must be because these practices make concepts such as balance, dignity, and respect so important. These are sports with aesthetic sense built into them.
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VeritasLuxMea
Guest
An excerpt from The Law by Frederic Bastiat:
Bill7154:
Indeed. To protect himself from some of the attitudes displayed in this forum, no doubt.
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Bill_7154
Guest
Those skills would need to be learned in philosophy classes and english language classes, but I get your point.
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EasterJoy
Guest
The teachings of the Church absolutely forbid harming anyone because of their sexual orientation, but I think older gays would tell a young man with a feminine appearance (whether he was gay or not) that unprovoked physical attacks by strangers do happen to men who “appear gay”.
The realization that one has to be aware and take steps to prevent physical attacks that one has done nothing to deserve is unfortunately part and parcel of campus life for young college women, too. It isn’t fair, it is in fact extremely annoying to have to order your life around what the predators of the world have in mind for you, but the world is what it is.
One of the steps that people vulnerable to unprovoked physical attacks have to take is to learn to appear physically confident, to learn what behaviors embolden and discourage attackers, and what to do if attacked. Women are wise to learn it, and men whose mere appearance does not discourage such attacks need to learn it, too. The truth is, if the older brother ought to learn the rudiments of self-defense, too. Thinking you could take on the world doesn’t mean you’re capable of doing it. Sometimes, though, the very thing that discourages an attack can be having an outward demeanor that says you are not unprepared to deal with one, whether you are or not.
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ringil
Guest
lololol. . .
You mean I can stop studying Justin Bieber!?! Why didn’t someone tell me this!?!
This may be the second or third time I have laughed out loud at something I have read on CAF. I don’t know why this is striking me as so funny. . .
Something’s clearly wrong with me!
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EasterJoy
Guest
Well, since you did it out of charity, it is that much time off of Purgatory, you can look at it that way.
(Although maybe that wasn’t such a great trade-off?)
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EasterJoy
Guest
Pearls before swine, perhaps, but it might be worth a try.
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Bill_7154
Guest
As a white guy who lived and worked in the ghetto where I was essentially the only white guy you would see (except cops) I concur that this is absoutly true. I believe that one way to look at it is to carry yourself with confidence, but not cockiness. If your cocky your going to provoke others with chips on their shoulders to challenge you (even if they are a group, and this happens). If you carry yourself with confidence it will make people looking for victims think twice about ‘trying’ you. It helps if your of large stature and muscular (I’m 6’2" and was muscular and very broad shouldered at the time) but simply carrying oneself with confidence will make someone think twice and wait for another target. They won’t know for sure why you are carrying yourself with such confidence, and therefore are much less likely to pick you as their victim. Maybe your carrying a concealed weapon. Maybe your a semi-pro boxer. The important thing is that it makes them THINK, and then reconsider picking YOU as their target.
I was able to live an walk in this community and was only tested a couple of times. And we are talking real ghetto with groups of 30 guys hanging out on one corner (most selling drugs) and 20 guys on the next corner (most selling drugs), and hearng gunfire literally each and every weekend night. There were 2 rival gangs from 2 different housing projects you could almost hit one throwing a baseball from the other. That’s how close they were. And they were constantly in turf wars over drug territory and also silly nonsense about some remark someone made about someone’s ex-girlfriend…and these things were settled with guns.
When walking down the sidewalk, if someone was a large male walking towards me, i would make the larger gesture in turning my shoulders to not ‘bump’ into each other. The only reason I did this is basically because I was invading their territory by living and working in the neighborhood. I woudln’t let someone run me offf the sidewalk or anything like that though.
So carrying oneself with confidence can be a lifesaver. Criminals looking for victims are scanning poeple looking for the weak person, the easy mark. Much like a pride of lions will single in on the young prey or the weak pray. They won’t go after the alpha male of the group they are seeking to take one of them down for dinner. Don’t carry yourself like a ‘victim’ in the eyes of street predators. carry yourself with confidence so they won’t pick you as their victim, they will wait for someone without confidence as thier ‘mark’.
God Bless,
Bill
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