Dealing with an effiminate son

[EasterJoy]

As a white guy who lived and worked in the ghetto where I was essentially the only white guy you would see (except cops) I concur that this is absoutly true. I believe that one way to look at it is to carry yourself with confidence, but not cockiness. If your cocky your going to provoke others with chips on their shoulders to challenge you (even if they are a group, and this happens). If you carry yourself with confidence it will make people looking for victims think twice about ‘trying’ you. It helps if your of large stature and muscular (I’m 6’2" and was muscular and very broad shouldered at the time) but simply carrying oneself with confidence will make someone think twice and wait for another target. They won’t know for sure why you are carrying yourself with such confidence, and therefore are much less likely to pick you as their victim. Maybe your carrying a concealed weapon. Maybe your a semi-pro boxer. The important thing is that it makes them THINK, and then reconsider picking YOU as their target.

I was able to live an walk in this community and was only tested a couple of times. And we are talking real ghetto with groups of 30 guys hanging out on one corner (most selling drugs) and 20 guys on the next corner (most selling drugs), and hearng gunfire literally each and every weekend night. There were 2 rival gangs from 2 different housing projects you could almost hit one throwing a baseball from the other. That’s how close they were. And they were constantly in turf wars over drug territory and also silly nonsense about some remark someone made about someone’s ex-girlfriend…and these things were settled with guns.

When walking down the sidewalk, if someone was a large male walking towards me, i would make the larger gesture in turning my shoulders to not ‘bump’ into each other. The only reason I did this is basically because I was invading their territory by living and working in the neighborhood. I woudln’t let someone run me offf the sidewalk or anything like that though.

So carrying oneself with confidence can be a lifesaver. Criminals looking for victims are scanning poeple looking for the weak person, the easy mark. Much like a pride of lions will single in on the young prey or the weak pray. They won’t go after the alpha male of the group they are seeking to take one of them down for dinner. Don’t carry yourself like a ‘victim’ in the eyes of street predators. carry yourself with confidence so they won’t pick you as their victim, they will wait for someone without confidence as thier ‘mark’.

God Bless,
Bill

Two fellows were out hiking together one day, and as they rested alongside a stream, they had both taken off their boots, in order to soak their tired feet in the water. They were terrified to see a large and presumably deranged bear come tearing over the hill, a quite a ways off but looking both angry and apparently headed in their direction. One hiker started to hurriedly put on his boots. The other one rebuked him: “What do you think you’re doing? You can’t outrun a bear!!” To which the first hiker replied: “I don’t have to outrun him. I just have to outrun you.”

 

[Bill_7154]

Two fellows were out hiking together one day, and as they rested alongside a stream, they had both taken off their boots, in order to soak their tired feet in the water. They were terrified to see a large and presumably deranged bear come tearing over the hill, a quite a ways off but looking both angry and apparently headed in their direction. One hiker started to hurriedly put on his boots. The other one rebuked him: “What do you think you’re doing? You can’t outrun a bear!!” To which the first hiker replied: “I don’t have to outrun him. I just have to outrun you.”

Well, I would not recommend, when crossing paths with a street thug, to take it upon yourself to go over to him and inquire about what he is doing and then provide him with a lecture around treating other people with dignity and respect.

Either adapt to your enviornment or you run the risk of becoming extinct. I was offering advice to a poster that supported their avoiding extinction. It’s a cruel world out there.

There is a difference between taking steps to protect yourself, and wishing or taking pleasure in the fact that another person may not be so fortunate and become a victim.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, I would not recommend, when crossing paths with a street thug, to take it upon yourself to go over to him and inquire about what he is doing and then provide him with a lecture around treating other people with dignity and respect.

Either adapt to your enviornment or you run the risk of becoming extinct. I was offering advice to a poster that supported their avoiding extinction. It’s a cruel world out there.

There is a difference between taking steps to protect yourself, and wishing or taking pleasure in the fact that another person may not be so fortunate and become a victim.

I shouldn’t joke about such a thing, but sometimes this is what avoiding bullies feels like…that is, just trying to not be the one who gets cut out of the herd by the predators.

You are right, of course. When we discourage someone who would sin against us by avoiding giving them reason to take notice us or take offense from us, we are keeping them from the near occasion of sin, which benefits them as much as us. Attacks harm the aggressors, too, after all, so it can be charitable to make some concessions to the temptations others are prone to.

I think we are advocating for the same point: that is, the point at which we neither attract bad behavior nor enable people who want to manipulate us through tactics of intimidation. What you were describing is the middle ground, where offenses against their senses of dignity were avoided in an appropriate manner, one that offended neither their dignity nor your own.

 

[TrixieMcGee]

With the whole sports thing, I don’t think it is a necessity to know about to fit in at all even in areas where sports are big. I have lived in California, New England (which everyone seems to be super into sports there), and now the South. My husband and I both really don’t care much about sports and certainly don’t follow them and have done just fine fitting in in all three areas.

 

[EasterJoy]

With the whole sports thing, I don’t think it is a necessity to know about to fit in at all even in areas where sports are big. I have lived in California, New England (which everyone seems to be super into sports there), and now the South. My husband and I both really don’t care much about sports and certainly don’t follow them and have done just fine fitting in in all three areas.

Sports were a bigger thing when there was no internet and only three broadcast networks and when the high schools hardly offered more than varsity sports, the student newspaper, and glee club as after-school activities. Yes, there is still the jock clique and the popular kid clique, but there are so many more choices for young people now, no one is expected to like exactly what everyone else their age likes.

 

[Cat]

With the whole sports thing, I don’t think it is a necessity to know about to fit in at all even in areas where sports are big. I have lived in California, New England (which everyone seems to be super into sports there), and now the South. My husband and I both really don’t care much about sports and certainly don’t follow them and have done just fine fitting in in all three areas.

But you and your husband are not 12-year old boys and you don’t have to associate with 12-year old boy peers on a daily basis.

Frankly I’m taken aback by the hostility towards my suggestion that the OP’s son learn the basics about local sports.

Perhaps I didn’t express myself well.

I did NOT suggest that the OP or his son become a super fan. I merely suggested that the boy (and his father) learn the basics so that he can be conversant with peers. This would take only a few minutes and it is a very wise and kind-hearted thing to do in a culture where sports are a major part of life for many families.

Even if there are not “big” teams in the OP’s area, there are probably local teams or local sports that many families in the town cheer for. In the South, NASCAR is extremely popular, and so are other types of racing. In the far North, curling is very popular, along with other ice sports.

Again, the OP’s son doesn’t have to be an expert and doesn’t have to spend hours in front of the TV on weekends. But it would be a good idea to at least know who the teams are or what the sports are, and this doesn’t take long. Frankly, I find it amazing when people say, “Bears? Now what sport do they play?” (This doesn’t happen very often!)

As for some of my other suggestions–I spoke with my husband about this thread, and he agreed that the boy is NOT too young to re-learn masculine mannerisms. Yes, of course they will feel uncomfortable to him at first, as he has apparently learned feminine mannerisms. I say “apparently” because there must be some visible reason why the boy is called “gay,” and I am assuming that this has to do with his mannerisms, voice, postures, clothing, etc.

These things are all LEARNED behaviors, and they can and SHOULD BE unlearned. If the OP is not capable of re-training his son, then another male should be asked to help out. Ideally this male should be a grandpa, uncle, cousin, or some other relative. But if there are no male relatives, then a man outside the family must be asked, hence my suggestion of finding a “coach,” possibly an actor, who knows all about masculine and feminine mannerisms and how to project them.

It’s not likely that the boy will pick up masculine mannerisms from other little boys–boys learn to act like men from MEN, not boys.

And yes, it will be uncomfortable at first, not because of who the boy is, but because it is new and different for him. All of us who have tried to change our diets can testify that for the first few weeks or months, it is VERY uncomfortable for us to eat veges instead of chips, or to give up eating excessive sweets–after all, this is who we are!–big eaters who love life! But we recognize that if we continue to eat big, we won’t have a very long life to enjoy, so we suffer through the changes and eventually, it truly does become a habit for us to have steamed broccolli instead of fries with our broiled steak.

He is not denying who he is or how God made him by re-learning to sit, gesture, speak, stand, walk, like a typical American man.

As for the comment about color prejudice–yes, I agree that it’s really too bad that we have attached prejudice to certain colors. But we have to play by societal rules as long as they don’t force us into sin. There is no sin in a boy or man avoiding wearing feminine-looking clothing or colors. When the boy is a grown-up, he can make decisions about whether he would like to buck the fashion rules and be his own man. But as a boy, he will be subject to ridicule, and most boys and teenagers don’t have the ability to process this ridicule and rise above it (hence the rash of teenaged suicides after being bullied for being “gay”). I see no harm and much good in a “wardrobe” check for the OP’s son.

And I did NOT say “sports jerseys.” I agree that these are best for super-fans, as they cost a fortune. But what is the harm in buying and wearing a few t-shirts with the local sport teams’ logos? I have ONE Chicago Bears shirt, and it comes out on those days when it is highly-appropriate to wear.

I am really very surprised and disheartened that so many people are affirming the OP and his son in their effeminacy.

 

[LaSainte]

Although I agree that masculinity should not be defined by football and public farting, I do think that some of the posts are assuming that nothing can be done, therefore accept who he is.

I disagree with this.

For the last thirty years, we have spent much of our spare time in ice skating rinks, and we know a lot of boys and men who figure skate. We have heard talks on the “gay issue” from male figure skaters. One of these skaters pointed out that the reason a lot of male figure skaters appear “effeminate” is that they have picked up a lot of feminine mannerisms because they spend most of their time around women.

Bingo.

So here are my suggestions.

1. Just because a boy/man doesn’t like “sports” doesn’t excuse him from being in good physical condition. Make sure that the boy is in good shape. You can’t be in good shape unless you are active. Perhaps this means taking up running or swimming or various self-defense disciplines. You might want to stay away from dance or figure skating, although both of these are incredibly good workouts. But why magnify the situation?

As soon as he has been through puberty, weight lifting would be good. At any rate, develop the physique and makes sure that he doesn’t appear “soft” and “curvy.” There is no reason that a man should look “soft” and “curvy.” Being in good shape is something that ALL of us should do, and does not negate “who we are,” but rather, enhances it.

1. HIRE a voice coach to help him lower his voice and speak without feminine mannerisms. Yes, this can be learned.

3 Hire an actor or some other coach to help him stop using feminine mannerisms in his posture, gestures, stance, etc. Many boys and men have gotten into habits of using these feminine mannerisms e.g., crossing legs and placing the hands together on the knees–**and these habits can be unlearned and replaced with more masculine mannerisms. **

1. Make sure that his wardrobe is masculine. No pink or purple.
2. Even if he isn’t into sports, make sure that he KNOWS about sports–this can and SHOULD be learned, especially by men, and any women who works in a man’s world.

Scan the papers or internet to learn about all the local teams’ results (especially football) and the highlights of the game–this takes only a few minutes, but makes it easier to join in the small talk at school or work. Have him LEARN to listen to others talk about sports and to occasionally join in or even initiate the discussion ("Great game–wow, those Bears pulled it off this time, didn’t they?!) And have him wear team apparel–he doesn’t have to look like a super-fan, but why not wear a Bears shirt (or whatever) on the days of the big games?

Since so many people love sports, I consider it basic good manners and charity to learn something about their love and be prepared to support them in their fandom, especially if there is a local sports franchise that everyone in the town or city loves.

Holy ****. So basically, hire coaches to change the way he talks, the way he dresses, and to change his own BODY so that he does not appear feminine in any way. THEN force him to pretend to like things he has no interest in so that he can “pull off” being masculine.

In other words, tell him that everything about him is gay and wrong and inadequate, and spend exhorbitant amounts of time and money to change himself on the outside do that he doesn’t invite ridicule upon himself.

All of this rather than building up his self-esteem and teaching him self-confidence so that he loves himself while teaching him to love God as well.

Great idea. Why not just hand him a gun with a single bullet?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I have 3 sons (and 2 daughters). We home school. My middle son 12 yo is effeminate, and while sheltered to a degree from the outside world, the gay label has been applied to him by some scouts and sadly his elder brother. I have banned his elder brother for a month from any computer use and I won’t stand for this talk in my home.

I also was somewhat effeminate growing up and questioned my own sexual identity in my teens and 20’s. I recall having what can only be described as gay dreams where someone was sodomizing me.

My question to you is how can I make my son more manly, and not have him question his sexuality to the degree that I did.

He is not into sports - nor am I. He is doing well in school and is emotionally behind his peers. He still likes to play with toys and is nowhere near as mature as his older brother (13 yo).

We are working as a family on his physical fitness merit badge.

I would appreciate any thoughts you can offer me.

You say you are not into sports and yet you chose “PhilliesFan” as your username…



When you say your son is “effeminate,” what exactly do you mean? People have been guessing but I think it would be helpful if you would describe EXACTLY what it is that seems effeminate about your son. What is his brother responding to, by calling him “gay,” or is that more sibling rivalry than anything else? Does his brother belong to the same scout troop, and could he have influenced the others to also label his brother?

Since you have a history with your own sexuality (dreams of sodomy! ) perhaps you are projecting onto your son. Try to stand back and see things objectively. That won’t be easy with your own history, but try to detach.

I’d really like to know what it is that your son does/doesn’t do that seems to say “effeminate” to you.

 

[Irishmom2]

So basically, hire coaches to change the way he talks, the way he dresses, and to change his own BODY so that he does not appear feminine in any way. THEN force him to pretend to like things he has no interest in so that he can “pull off” being masculine.

In other words, tell him that everything about him is gay and wrong and inadequate, and spend exhorbitant amounts of time and money to change himself on the outside do that he doesn’t invite ridicule upon himself.

All of this rather than building up his self-esteem and teaching him self-confidence so that he loves himself while teaching him to love God as well.
{QUOTE]

Good points. Well worded.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I have to jump in here and echo my fellow posters advice on the ‘sports’ thing.

When I was growing up, we were not into sports of any kind. We watched a lot of PBS. I read encyclopedias and other books. I got into comics. We were artistic and musical. I learned to cook and clean.

Fast forward…I’m in a profession that is real manly. All hunters, fishermen, Nascar fans, football, hockey. Real dude stuff. I had a co-worker think I was gay because I went to see a play. (?)

Anyhoo…I’m 6’4" 270 pounds and my beard is growing as we speak. Not effeminate.

There is a tremendous benefit from learning enough about sports to have a conversation with the guys. I have found plenty of people to have a ‘real’ conversation with in addition to all the small talk and sports stuff. Sports and stuff like that is really all some people care about, and all they feel comfortable talking about. So, I say make a little effort and learn enough to converse.

BTW…I didn’t have a lot of friends when I was 12, but nobody really bothered me either. Not too badly anyway!

My 2 boys are not interested in sports either. They are artistic and (surprise) love video games so they have groups of peers to comiserate with.

 

[Cat]

Holy ****. So basically, hire coaches to change the way he talks, the way he dresses, and to change his own BODY so that he does not appear feminine in any way. THEN force him to pretend to like things he has no interest in so that he can “pull off” being masculine.

In other words, tell him that everything about him is gay and wrong and inadequate, and spend exhorbitant amounts of time and money to change himself on the outside do that he doesn’t invite ridicule upon himself.

All of this rather than building up his self-esteem and teaching him self-confidence so that he loves himself while teaching him to love God as well.

Great idea. Why not just hand him a gun with a single bullet?

I did NOT say to tell him that everything about him is “gay”.

But wrong–yes! It is not right for a man to act or look like a woman. Do you all realize that the Bible condemns effeminacy in men, and also masculinity in a woman?

And yes, inadequate. A man who acts and looks like a woman will have a difficult time in this world. Certainly there are plenty of people who are trying to change the world and make us all more tolerant, but it’s a long way away yet, and hopefully, the time will never come when a man who looks and acts like a woman is praised for being that way.

Again, I am shocked that Christians see nothing wrong with a man who looks and acts “feminine.” I’m really, really stunned by this thread.

I agree with Easter Joy that we all need more specific information about the son. Just because a boy enjoys the arts more than sports is not “feminine.” Boys who read Harry Potter are not “effeminate.” Boys who aren’t athletes aren’t “effeminate.” But sitting with legs crossed and a limp wrist–that is a feminine posture and boys and men should try hard not to sit that way, and parents should help their boys learn these things! That is NOT insulting who the boy is–it’s helping him learn life skills that will help him.

Yes, that’s what parents do–they help their children to be the best they can be. We teach them manners, social skills, grooming skills, etc.

Children don’t necessarily want to learn how to be polite, clean, dressed-appropriately, etc, but we teach them anyway because as adults, we recognize the importance of these skills in the world.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

OP, you said your 12 year old is less mature than your 13 year old son. Is he simply not into girls yet? And is the 13 year old taunting him because of that?

Please, before people keep spinning off into a thousand directions, give us more specifics!

 

[LaSainte]

I did NOT say to tell him that everything about him is “gay”.

But wrong–yes! It is not right for a man to act or look like a woman. Do you all realize that the Bible condemns effeminacy in men, and also masculinity in a woman?

And yes, inadequate. A man who acts and looks like a woman will have a difficult time in this world. Certainly there are plenty of people who are trying to change the world and make us all more tolerant, but it’s a long way away yet, and hopefully, the time will never come when a man who looks and acts like a woman is praised for being that way.

Again, I am shocked that Christians see nothing wrong with a man who looks and acts “feminine.” I’m really, really stunned by this thread.

I agree with Easter Joy that we all need more specific information about the son. Just because a boy enjoys the arts more than sports is not “feminine.” Boys who read Harry Potter are not “effeminate.” Boys who aren’t athletes aren’t “effeminate.” But sitting with legs crossed and a limp wrist–that is a feminine posture and boys and men should try hard not to sit that way, and parents should help their boys learn these things! That is NOT insulting who the boy is–it’s helping him learn life skills that will help him.

Yes, that’s what parents do–they help their children to be the best they can be. We teach them manners, social skills, grooming skills, etc.

Children don’t necessarily want to learn how to be polite, clean, dressed-appropriately, etc, but we teach them anyway because as adults, we recognize the importance of these skills in the world.

The worst thing this father can do, ESPECIALLY if his son happens to be questioning his sexuality, is to draw attention to the fact that he has some feminine mannerisms and interests and that there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

What you are suggesting is that the father make an effort to “fix” everything that he perceives to be wrong on the outside, to say nothing of the emotional turmoil this poor boy is going through by being called “gay” by his friends and his own brother.

Forcing this poor kid to “pretend” to be a man’s man is going to do NOTHING to help him. In fact, it will make him feel judged and inadequate in the eyes of his own father. His mannerisms are more than likely an outward manifestation of something that may be going on INSIDE. Slapping on a sports jersey isn’t going to fix that, and in fact, will only make things worse.

Rather than forcing this kid to confirm to society’s pre-conceived notion of masculinity so that he is not labelled as “gay”, he needs to be taught that such mockery is completely unacceptable and that his value as a person is completely independent of whether or not he sits with his legs crossed or likes art as opposed to scratching his genetals and watching football.

And I’m pretty sure the Bible was talking about men dressing in drag and having sex with other men, not going downtown to see a play and havig a lisp.

 

[EasterJoy]

Holy ****. So basically, hire coaches to change the way he talks, the way he dresses, and to change his own BODY so that he does not appear feminine in any way. THEN force him to pretend to like things he has no interest in so that he can “pull off” being masculine.

In other words, tell him that everything about him is gay and wrong and inadequate…

All of this rather than building up his self-esteem and teaching him self-confidence so that he loves himself while teaching him to love God as well.

Great idea. Why not just hand him a gun with a single bullet?

I think the father knows, rather, that the son might eventually say to himself, “What is the use? I can’t do this, this is not me, therefore* I must be a homosexual*.” Either that, or he is going to meet a self-confident heterosexual man who feels perfectly free to like what he does like and to not to like sports or bother himself with knowing all about them, and he’s going to realize that he has been sold a bill of goods.

I’m not saying that kids should not be encouraged to–or even that they should not be out-and-out forced to!–broaden their horizons. In my perfect world, every one of them would be forced to see some live drama , and probably to act in one at least once, they’d all be forced (and with some previous level of preparation) to watch some live sports and to play some sports, to sing and try a musical instrument, to attend a live musical performance, to foray into nature, into museums, into trying their hand at art, into mechanical assembly, into some computer use, into basic the basic domestic work required to run a home. I would absolutely include attending a real competently-performed sports performance along with attending a real competently-performed drama and real competently-performed music, if at all possible. You have to experience the activity at a high level to understand what all the fuss is about!

These are things we need to learn to appreciate on some minimal level, not only because it helps us to connect with others who are different than we are (one group of whom might be our spouse and children!) but also because this is how people find passions they never dreamed of having. There are lots of guys with no particular athletic ability who love to watch sports, just as there are lots of people with no special musical ability who love music, with no special dramatic ability who love drama, and so on. Even more, though, there are people who have one formative experience who say to themselves, “Why did I not think I’d like this? I can do that. I want to do that. I have to learn to do that!”

If the younger brother is going to be forced to learn something about sports, fine, but put it in the context where you explain that the older brother had to learn how to sew on buttons, do critical research on the internet, and try his hand at writing poetry. Nobody is wild about everything, but everybody ought to try everything a few times. That is quite different than saying, “real men (or real women) all enjoy this. If you botch this one area, you have failed your gender. You really don’t belong until you get this one thing right.”

We don’t want to tell anyone that, for the elementary reason that it is a falsehood. According to John Paul II’s interpretation of the life of St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross: *Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie. *

…But sitting with legs crossed and a limp wrist–that is a feminine posture and boys and men should try hard not to sit that way, and parents should help their boys learn these things! That is NOT insulting who the boy is–it’s helping him learn life skills that will help him…

Even girls should not allow themselves the habit of limp wrists, because it gives the impression that one is helpless or trying to feign helplessness. These days, everyone is expected to act capable and ready to pitch in with whatever work needs to be done, to sit and stand with a fit posture, to walk confidently but without throwing one’s body around without any grace at all, and to have a friendly handshake that is firm without being either limp or bone-crushing. To carry one’s hands weakly is akin to slouching. The only thing I can think of that a boy might have to “unlearn” would be if he walked with a hip sway reminiscent of what is natural to a full-grown woman, but having a body that naturally results in that sort of a gait is fairly unusual in a male, young or old. (It would look a little like a dog walking like a cat, though…not quite right.)

As for crossed legs, unless modesty asks for it (because one is wearing a dress), it is better for one’s circulation to avoid it. The truth is, it is better to teach young men to sit with both feet on the floor with some space between knees and feet, and to avoid putting one ankle up on their knee. The only reason girls ought to practice having their knees together when wearing pants is so that they’ll remember to always do so when modesty requires it. I remember my mother saying that keeping their knees together was difficult for some of the older nuns to remember when they quit wearing ankle length habits, as the old skirt lengths had allowed them to do anything with their knees that they liked!

That is the thing, too: We have to realize that the standards of what is and is not feminine or masculine are not entirely the result of the sexual dimorphisms typical of the anatomies of human adults. Some of the standard is artificial, and therefore fluid. Guys feel free to wear pink ties on ESPN now. On Breast Cancer Awareness Sunday, every player in the NFL is wearing significant amounts of shocking pink. It is a new world, and that is not bad in every way!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t think anyone should be “forced” to attend a play or any type of music concert. Just like I wouldn’t force anyone to try smoking a cigar or drinking bourbon, or shooting an animal. Let’s just let people be who they are, shall we? There’s plenty of room in this world for all kinds of people, and I believe God created us all to have certain proclivities, and we’re all different.

Sheesh, this thread is wandering all over the place, and we still do not know what the OP means by “effeminate.”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Although I agree that masculinity should not be defined by football and public farting, I do think that some of the posts are assuming that nothing can be done, therefore accept who he is.

I disagree with this.

For the last thirty years, we have spent much of our spare time in ice skating rinks, and we know a lot of boys and men who figure skate. We have heard talks on the “gay issue” from male figure skaters. One of these skaters pointed out that the reason a lot of male figure skaters appear “effeminate” is that they have picked up a lot of feminine mannerisms because they spend most of their time around women.

Bingo.

So here are my suggestions.

1. Just because a boy/man doesn’t like “sports” doesn’t excuse him from being in good physical condition. Make sure that the boy is in good shape. You can’t be in good shape unless you are active. Perhaps this means taking up running or swimming or various self-defense disciplines. You might want to stay away from dance or figure skating, although both of these are incredibly good workouts. But why magnify the situation?

As soon as he has been through puberty, weight lifting would be good. At any rate, develop the physique and makes sure that he doesn’t appear “soft” and “curvy.” There is no reason that a man should look “soft” and “curvy.” Being in good shape is something that ALL of us should do, and does not negate “who we are,” but rather, enhances it.

1. HIRE a voice coach to help him lower his voice and speak without feminine mannerisms. Yes, this can be learned.

3 Hire an actor or some other coach to help him stop using feminine mannerisms in his posture, gestures, stance, etc. Many boys and men have gotten into habits of using these feminine mannerisms e.g., crossing legs and placing the hands together on the knees–**and these habits can be unlearned and replaced with more masculine mannerisms. **

1. Make sure that his wardrobe is masculine. No pink or purple.
2. Even if he isn’t into sports, make sure that he KNOWS about sports–this can and SHOULD be learned, especially by men, and any women who works in a man’s world.

Scan the papers or internet to learn about all the local teams’ results (especially football) and the highlights of the game–this takes only a few minutes, but makes it easier to join in the small talk at school or work. Have him LEARN to listen to others talk about sports and to occasionally join in or even initiate the discussion ("Great game–wow, those Bears pulled it off this time, didn’t they?!) And have him wear team apparel–he doesn’t have to look like a super-fan, but why not wear a Bears shirt (or whatever) on the days of the big games?

Since so many people love sports, I consider it basic good manners and charity to learn something about their love and be prepared to support them in their fandom, especially if there is a local sports franchise that everyone in the town or city loves.

This list strikes me as almost abusive. Exactly what is it going to do to this kid to hear from his parents “Ok so, we know you’re being bullied by some cruel and small-minded people so we’re going to change everything about you so that you can be deserving of basic respect”? He needs parents who love and support him for who he is, and fosters his interests and help him grow. Not ones who teach him that validation comes from other people and that it’s something that you should do anything to get.

And can I please ask what’s wrong with male dancers and figure skaters? Guess what, if men didn’t dance ballets would look very different (and boring, male roles are needed).

If the kid is being bullied at school then the school needs to step up. If they won’t the boy’s parents need to take it further, maybe even court. If family members are harassing the kid then the parents need to make it clear that no one will talk to their child like that.

And rest assured, even if they did spend all of that time and money “fixing” him and making him a “real man” the bullies would find something else to mock, perhaps even the fact that he’s trying so hard to change because of them.

You know, when I was 16 I was putting gas in my car while my extremely effeminate male friend was inside getting soda. A man came over, talked to me for a few minutes, and then grabbed me and tried to put me in his truck. My friend ran out of the store, grabbed the guy, wrestled me free and then called the cops as the guy fled. That was a real man. Even though he sounded feminine, had feminine mannerisms, loved musical theatre and hated sports, and had a very lean body because he was a runner. His masculinity was so much deeper than wrists speech pattern. He has a great career and is married to a lovely woman now, but even today he’s more feminine than she is. (And he was raised by a single dad who is a mechanic and has a very gross, masculine older brother who followed in his dad’s footsteps.)

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t think anyone should be “forced” to attend a play or any type of music concert. Just like I wouldn’t force anyone to try smoking a cigar or drinking bourbon, or shooting an animal. Let’s just let people be who they are, shall we? There’s plenty of room in this world for all kinds of people, and I believe God created us all to have certain proclivities, and we’re all different.

Sheesh, this thread is wandering all over the place, and we still do not know what the OP means by “effeminate.”

Are you really equating having to sit through a top notch musical or dramatic performance with being forced to use alcohol, tobacco, or firearms? Really?

I’d like you to find a middle school school that doesn’t require exposure to the arts, when budget allows. No one has died yet, and a few people find that they have some abilities, talents, and even interests that they never suspected they could have. If you never force a middle schooler to do anything, OTOH, they’ll miss out on far too much. They would have reason to chide you later for not pushing them a bit harder.

The* Oregonian* ran a series in which one of the newspaper’s performing arts critics and one of the sportswriters hosted each other, first attending an opera and then some time later going to a Trailblazers game together. As I remember, neither became a total convert, but they both gained some insights from their experiences. (The most memorable quote was by the fine arts critic, along these lines: “If I’m ever told I have only six months to live, I want it to be in basketball time.”)

 

[SMHW]

I don’t think anyone should be “forced” to attend a play or any type of music concert. Just like I wouldn’t force anyone to try smoking a cigar or drinking bourbon, or shooting an animal. Let’s just let people be who they are, shall we? There’s plenty of room in this world for all kinds of people, and I believe God created us all to have certain proclivities, and we’re all different.

I won’t suggest a list of things that children must be exposed to…

But to say that parents and/or society should have no list is (begging your pardon) a ridiculous idea! Our *Faith *requires us to educate our children. Education consists of training our children’s spirits, minds, and bodies. Exposing our children to certain events and situations is part of that training.

That old biblical proverb about training up a child in the way he should go can be viewed from two different vantage points and I think both are important. The one vantage point suggests that there is a way that all children should be made to go. The other viewpoint is that parents should train the child for the specific way that this particular child should go. Ideally parents already know what way it is that ALL children should go. But when it comes to a specific child, it’s going to be a trial and error process for parent and child alike. It can take a number of trials on a variety of paths before the best path for both vantage points can be located

And “effeminate” boy (whatever that means) is doing something his society/culture forbids or not doing something his society/requires for males. Sometimes the problem truly is the society and/or the culture. But in most cases a wise father will best serve his son by helping the boy to fit in to the culture while at the same time allowing the boy to follow his personal path.

 

[SMHW]

This list strikes me as almost abusive. Exactly what is it going to do to this kid to hear from his parents “Ok so, we know you’re being bullied by some cruel and small-minded people so we’re going to change everything about you so that you can be deserving of basic respect”? He needs parents who love and support him for who he is, and fosters his interests and help him grow. Not ones who teach him that validation comes from other people and that it’s something that you should do anything to get.

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding Cat.

Like I said earlier, she lives in a place where following the local team sports is part of the culture. It’s a wise person who understands his/her culture even if one is not especially enamored of that culture. This isn’t so much a matter or right or wrong as it is a matter of social prudence.

That said, some of us live in areas where team sports play are far less significant role in the local culture. (And let’s remember we are specifically speaking of male culture as opposed to female culture.) But even in such places, our society still places a value on athletics for fitness. We generally agree (even if we don’t practice what we preach) that we need to eat right and exercise. Eating right and exercising is a sporting event where we compete against our opponents of sloth and gluttony.

Since Cat’s husband is (or was) involved with figure skating I know that she considers it a perfectly masculine activity. My own son was involved with gymnastics and I can tell you that skinny male gymnasts often have more upper body strength than football players twice their weight. So it’s not the particular activity that matters but rather the fact that it is a physical activity.

And yes, an otherwise “effeminate” male will win the respect of males and females alike if he is confident. I think many of us, including Cat, have suggested martial arts for this reason.

The point is, we all require things of our children. We make them pick up their rooms. We teach them to cook, to drive a car, to ride a bicycle, to do arithmetic, to read, to understand something about politics, to groom their hair, to look something up on Google, to say please and thank you, to match the buttons with the corresponding button holes. Some of these we consider moral imperatives. Others we consider useful skills for our particular society. We actually have a right to expect our children to learn from us even in the cases where they are not naturally inclined to do so.

 

[PhilliesFan]

Wow, I sure caused a firestorm here.

Thanks for all of your replies - I have read them all. I greatly appreciate your feedback.

My son’s name is Gabriel. I am hearing him being addressed by his peers (mainly scouts) as GAYbrel. Accent on the first syllable. My 13 yo son who has attitude problems is doing this and I know it is deliberate and he gets severely punished for it. He has been banned from the computer for a month and has to write lines when I even think he is doing this. He has begun to refer to Gabriel as Brel, or “him”.

I saw Gabriel playing football with the scouts and he was running like a girl with his arms flapping. This is what caused me to categorize his manner as effeminate.

Gabriel has asked me what sex was and I told him it his how people reproduce. As a family we have let our kids know that Daddy gives Mommy a special hug to have a baby. They all know the names of their genitalia and about eggs cells and sperm cells, but other than that we have been vague. I have started to have conversations with the 13 yo son about it. I basically asked him what he thought sex was and I realized he was very ignorant and I gave him a very brief overview of it without too many details.

He is now getting physically mature and I am ready to start to talk with him about the physical details of it within the context of theology of the body - BUT he is still very innocent so I will be leaving out a lot of details. I will basically be doing knowledge checks to see where he is maturity wise to see what he needs to know at his maturity level. I’ll definitely cover erections, wet dreams, and masturbation.

I will do this with Gabriel as well, but probably not for 2 years or more.

Now - getting to sports. I think there is great virtue in boys doing some form of physical manual labor and even something physical activity wise. It is just my gut feeling. We are starting to lift weights as a family and doing other physical exercise at night. I think Gabriel needs some sort of solitary physical activity - probably not a group sport like football, perhaps something like karate which my elder daughter is interested in.

My motivation on coming to you was how to handle how others are reacting to him and prevent him from getting a complex about his identity.

You have truly being wonderful - thanks again!