dealing with EF/OF tension

[LittleSoldier]

That no NEW doctrine was contained therein is irrelevant, they still reaffirmed Dogma previously uttered. I know that the only reason you take this tack is to find an excuse to challenge the validity of the council. Why don’t you run and join your buddies in the SSPX?

And here we go again. C’mon people, please, can’t we get along? There’s lots to be learned here but nobody is going to accept anything when it is presented in an uncharitable way (like you just did).

You know what? I LOVE the Mass whether it is presented in English or in Latin. I have two nieces who are altar girls (one was just on TV during a Mass) and I like the idea of knowing what is going on. I also love the beauty of the Latin and the Gregorian Chant. I miss Pange Lingua. I don’t miss feeling inferior when I was told as a girl I couldn’t go past the communion rail unless I was there to clean the altar area (with a few nyahs added).

There are good things about both types of Masses and both types necessarily must omit parts present in the other Mass.

But they are both the Mass!!! Isn’t that what is really important? Don’t they both contain transubstantiation? Don’t they both offer Communion to the faithful?

If every insult in this thread were a prayer for peace instead we would be much better off.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

 

[ProVobis]

Thank you for this ProVobis. I’ve been a Catholic for 68 yrs. & had not thought about the fact that the use of Latin in all Church documents… sent to so many nations… favors no single nation. Can you imagine how many different translators would be needed to send EACH document the Pope pens if the vernacular was used??

I understand all Mass vernaculars have to be authenticized and approved by the Vatican. With an estimated 7,000 languages in the world today, that can be a nightmare to maintain, although I would guess “only” a few hundred are actually used. That’s still a lot of liturgical books. Personally I don’t know how they do it, but the cat’s out of the bag, so to speak, so there’s not much they can do except to encourage the wider use of Latin, hoping they don’t have to revise any more books. I don’t think most Catholics appreciate the work of the Church in attempting to translate the texts into their vernaculars.

But at least the Church has the Latin as its official language. In my 35 years of IT, I programmed in 7 different languages although I remember how tense things got among/between the groups who only programmed in their own (COBOL, C, or Fortran)language even though we all shared the same mainframe computer.

 

[LittleSoldier]

By declairng yourself the “humblest,” does that not disqualify you from being so?

I’m sorry but I really don’t know what “declairng” means. I am absolutely serious. By humble I mean unable to be effective, too prone to sin, uncharitable, uncaring, looking the other way when others need my help, and basically not being a good soldier for God.

I am not disqualified from being humble by pronouncing my humility as I am not disqualified from being useless by pronouncing my lack of usefulness.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

 

[CWBetts]

I’m sorry but I really don’t know what “declairng” means. I am absolutely serious. By humble I mean unable to be effective, too prone to sin, uncharitable, uncaring, looking the other way when others need my help, and basically not being a good soldier for God.

I am not disqualified from being humble by pronouncing my humility as I am not disqualified from being useless by pronouncing my lack of usefulness.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

1: sorry, that was a typo. The word I meant was “declaring”
2: it was a joke.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

You don’t have to ask me twice!!! I look forward to the day when you and those like you realize how wrong you have been regarding the deficiencies in the new Mass…not saying it is invalid…it is most certainly valid, but it is lacking and can be an occasion of scandal with the numerous abuses that go on at any given parish on any given weekend.

. Why don’t you run and join your buddies in the SSPX?

 

[CWBetts]

You don’t have to ask me twice!!! I look forward to the day when you and those like you realize how wrong you have been regarding the deficiencies in the new Mass…not saying it is invalid…it is most certainly valid, but it is lacking and can be an occasion of scandal with the numerous abuses that go on at any given parish on any given weekend.

Great. Praise schismatics why don’t you. If you really respected Tradition, you would avoid the SSPX and stick with groups that are in full communion with Rome, like the FSSP (who the SSPX condemn btw)

 

[Student09]

If I concede that the prayers of the Liturgy of the Eucharist are superior in form, in that they are more explicit, will you also concede that the Liturgy of the Word in the NO is superior, based on the inclusion of more of the Scriptures?

I like the Scripture readings in the OF and am certainly not going to criticize it. I have not been attending the EF long enough to adequately compare the two cycles of readings. I do appreciate the inclusion of psalms throughout the EF and the prologue to the Gospel of John, which I never get tired of reading/hearing.

It would be interesting to have a (non-emotional) discussion sometime on what the role of Scripture is in the liturgy. Clearly, Scripture plays a different role in the form of readings that change each time than in the form of readings which are repeated each time (like the Gospel of John at the EF). In the OF there is evidently less Scripture as part of the repeated liturgy, and more variety.

My question: are we expecting the Scripture readings in the Mass to fulfill the same role as, say, lectio divina? (I personally find there isn’t much time to reflect on the readings when I’m at Mass, though one can look at them before/after.) Are they providing material for the homily? Is the goal to expose Catholics who don’t read the Bible to as much of it as possible during Mass so that they will be familiar with more of it?

These are real questions - I don’t know the answers and I’m not a theologian. It would be interesting to reflect on, though. Perhaps the EF and OF demonstrate different understandings of the role of Scripture in the Mass.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You don’t have to ask me twice!!! I look forward to the day when you and those like you realize how wrong you have been regarding the deficiencies in the new Mass…not saying it is invalid…it is most certainly valid, but it is lacking and can be an occasion of scandal with the numerous abuses that go on at any given parish on any given weekend.

May I please ask what you mean by “occasion of scandal?” It’s hard for me to imagine the celebration of the Lord’s Supper as scandalous in any way.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

 

[LittleSoldier]

1: sorry, that was a typo. The word I meant was “declaring”
2: it was a joke.

1. Thank you.
2. hahahahaha - in high school we used to use that joke a lot. “I’m great, wonderful, intelligent, and most of all I’m humble.” That brings back some memories.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I have to admit something here. I don’t know what EF and OF mean, nor do I know what SSPX and that other acronym mean. Would someone please tell me? Thank you!!

Also, I would like to bring up something from the OP. If you remember, the OP was having problems in his relationship with his wife, whom he loves more than anyone else in the world and was wondering if the importance of being brothers and sisters in Christ is important here (I hope I got that right). I think it’s the most important thing of all. There are a few members here I don’t like. But I love them because they are my brother and/or sister in Christ, were created out of Love, and have an eternal soul. God loves each of us. To follow His example we must love each other, too.

No matter if we get angry or defensive, that brotherhood/sisterhood is so important. I hope I would happily give my life for anyone, even someone I don’t like. Not liking someone is a surface thing - it’s not really important. The soul is not a surface thing. Would any of us really want any other person in the world to not go to heaven? Really?

I didn’t mean to start a homily but I felt the need to say that.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not necessary to look at other faiths. Consider what Pope John XXIII wrote a few months before he convened Vatican II:

more at papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

Well, I disagree with his opinion. I for one have found great spirituality in Mass in the vernacular. I have been to Mass in another language, and its never the same. Like I mentioned earlier, not everyone will have the same appreciation for Latin like you. You have made the effort, not everyone has time nor the inherent skill to do so. I mean, many people can’t even speak their on native tongue well. Just go around the internet and read people’s posts, how poorly Americans spell in English. Oftentimes they cannot even tell the difference between “they’re” and “their”. Even in CAF, I see more people spell altar as altEr. And you expect for them to have a good appreciation of another language?

 

[CradleCath]

That no NEW doctrine was contained therein is irrelevant, they still reaffirmed Dogma previously uttered. I know that the only reason you take this tack is to find an excuse to challenge the validity of the council. Why don’t you run and join your buddies in the SSPX?

The fact that the Second Vatican Council defined no new Dogma is VERY relevant. Paul VI also stated a year later:

" There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification , the council intended to give to its
teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible
teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964,
repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council , it avoided proclaiming in any
extraordinary manner and dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility."
General Audience , December 1, 1966 published in L’Oservatore Romano 1/21/1966

Paul VI confirmed again in 1975 that Vatican II was pastoral and not infallible dogmatic council:

" Differing from other councils , this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral."

General audience August 6, 1973

Cardinal Ratzinger stated:

" Certainly there is a mentality of narrow views that isolates Vatican II and which provoked this opposition. There
are many accounts of it , which give the impression that from Vatican II onward ,
everything has changed , and what preceded it has no value or, at best , has value in the light of Vatican II… The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest
level , as merely a pastoral council."

The fact that the council was not infallible does not mean that it wasn’t valid. I’m sorry that you feel that I challenge the validity of the council. I don’t. And I’ve never been inside of an SSPX Church. After all, I’m a traditional Catholic & Trads are faithful to the Pope. I do pray that the SSPX becomes reconciled to the Latin Church…until they do, I would never support them.

PS. It would be nice if you would “deal with the EF/OF tension” in a nonconfrontational way. That is, of course, what the person who started this thread had in mind.

 

[Milesius]

The reasons for the tension can in part be found in the document which I link to below, now this Cardinal who wrote this document remained in good standing in the Church all his life, he said the same things about the Novus Ordo traditionalists loyal to the Church say and the Church never once accused him of the things traditional Catholics have to put up with been labelled everyday by those that dislike them.

The tension is caused in part by people not been able to accept constructive criticism for what it is.

I consider this document to be a prophetic document, it was written in 1969 and its warning were ignored, today we can see that its warnings have come true, what it prophesied has been fulfilled.

ewtn.com/library/curia/reformof.htm

 

[ProVobis]

Well, I disagree with his opinion.

Cardinal Arinze, who speaks for the Pope in liturgical matters, is quite firm as well.

The Roman Rite Church showed extraordinary missionary dynamism. This explains why a greater part of the world has been evangelized by heralds of the Latin Rite. Many European languages which we regard as modern today have roots in Latin, some more than others. Examples are Italian, Spanish, Romanian, Portuguese and French. But even English and German do borrow from Latin.

The Popes and the Roman Church have found Latin very suitable for many reasons. It fits a Church which is universal, a Church in which all peoples, languages and cultures should feel at home and no one is regarded as a stranger.

Moreover, the Latin language has a certain stability which daily spoken languages, where words change often in shades of meaning, cannot have. An example is the translation of the Latin “propagare”. The Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples when it was founded in 1627 was called “Sacra Congregatio de Propaganda Fide”. But at the time of the Second Vatican Council many modern languages use the word “propaganda” in the sense in which we say “political propaganda”. Therefore, there is a preference in the Church today to avoid the expression “de propaganda Fide”, in favour of “the Evangelization of Peoples”.

Latin has the characteristic of words and expressions retaining their meaning generation after generation. This is an advantage when it comes to the articulation of our Catholic faith and the preparation of Papal and other Church Documents. Even the modern universities appreciate this point and have some of their solemn titles in Latin.

Blessed Pope John XXIII in his Apostolic Constitution, Veterum Sapientia, issued on 22 February 1962, gives these two reasons and adds a third. The Latin language has a nobility and dignity which are not negligible (cf. Veterum Sapientia, nn. 5, 6, 7). We can add that Latin is concise, precise and poetically measured.

Is it not admirable that people, especially well-trained clerics, can meet in international gatherings and be able to communicate at least in Latin? More importantly, **is it a small matter that 1 million young people could meet in the World Youth Day Convention in Rome in 2000, in Toronto in 2002 and in Cologne in 2005, and be able to sing parts of the Mass, and especially the Credo, in Latin? ** Theologians can study the original writings of the early Latin Fathers and of the Scholastics without tears because these were written in Latin.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20061111_gateway-conference_en.html

 

[ProVobis]

Just go around the internet and read people’s posts, how poorly Americans spell in English. Oftentimes they cannot even tell the difference between “they’re” and “their”. Even in CAF, I see more people spell altar as altEr. And you expect for them to have a good appreciation of another language?

I’ll agree with you there. It’s unbelievable how our politicians and even our Presidents are butchering the English language. And they want to make English the official language of the U.S.? Good luck with that.

 

[CradleCath]

The reasons for the tension can in part be found in the document which I link to below, now this Cardinal who wrote this document remained in good standing in the Church all his life, he said the same things about the Novus Ordo traditionalists loyal to the Church say and the Church never once accused him of the things traditional Catholics have to put up with been labelled everyday by those that dislike them.

The tension is caused in part by people not been able to accept constructive criticism for what it is.

I consider this document to be a prophetic document, it was written in 1969 and its warning were ignored, today we can see that its warnings have come true, what it prophesied has been fulfilled.

ewtn.com/library/curia/reformof.htm

Thank you so much for linking us to the words of Cardinal Ottaviani.
I’ve read the Ottaviani Intervention several times, but each time I do so…I find something new & informative. The Cardinal was a holy man & his humiliation during the council was horrid. I remember reading about it in the 60’s & found his story online:

During the first session of the Second Vatican Council, in the debate on the Liturgy Constitution, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani asked: “Are these Fathers planning a revolution?” The Cardinal was old and partly blind. He spoke from the heart without a text about a subject which moved him deeply, and continued: **
Are we seeking to stir up wonder, or perhaps scandal among the Christian people, by introducing changes in so venerable a rite, that has been approved for so many centuries and is now so familiar? The rite of Holy Mass should not be treated as if it were a piece of cloth to be refashioned according to the whim of each generation.**

So concerned was he at the revolutionary potential of the Constitution, and having no prepared text, the elderly Cardinal exceeded the ten-minute time limit for speeches. At a signal from Cardinal Alfrink, who was presiding at the session, a technician switched off the microphone, and Cardinal Ottaviani stumbled back to his seat in humiliation.[1]

The Council Fathers clapped with glee, and the journalists to whose dictatorship Father Louis Bouyer claimed the Council had surrendered itself, were even more gleeful when they wrote their reports that night and when they wrote their books at the end of the session. When we laugh, we do not think, and, had they not been laughing, at least some of the bishops might have wondered whether, perhaps, Cardinal Ottaviani had a point.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I have to admit something here. I don’t know what EF and OF mean, nor do I know what SSPX and that other acronym mean. Would someone please tell me? Thank you!!

Also, I would like to bring up something from the OP. If you remember, the OP was having problems in his relationship with his wife, whom he loves more than anyone else in the world and was wondering if the importance of being brothers and sisters in Christ is important here (I hope I got that right). I think it’s the most important thing of all. There are a few members here I don’t like. But I love them because they are my brother and/or sister in Christ, were created out of Love, and have an eternal soul. God loves each of us. To follow His example we must love each other, too.

No matter if we get angry or defensive, that brotherhood/sisterhood is so important. I hope I would happily give my life for anyone, even someone I don’t like. Not liking someone is a surface thing - it’s not really important. The soul is not a surface thing. Would any of us really want any other person in the world to not go to heaven? Really?

I didn’t mean to start a homily but I felt the need to say that.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

here this gives you an idea, on the left the EF,

montfort.org.br/veritas/c…vo_missas.html

montfort.org.br/veritas/comparativo_missas.html

 

[Sirach2]

I’m 72 years old and lived through the era of the traditional mass, which I attended daily in Catholic school from grade 1 through high school. It was required to go to mass, and once monthly all grades went to confession. Our religion classes consisted of memorizing the Baltimore Catechism, so one might assume that this extensive education of daily religion classes, unlike the scant weekly hour received in our present CCD classes, would produce solid Catholics.

Truthfully, knowledge is not the answer, for despite memorization which was thoroughly ingrained in my head, my heart never grasped the essence of the faith - devotion to Jesus Christ! I left the church as an adult for about ten years, since the liturgy and its silent latin mumbling never did enrich me. When I came back in 1965, the Church was just beginning to embrace the new liturgy.

The changes to the new mass did not take place overnight, but were implemented gradually with careful catechesis in all of our parishes. Except for the scant minority who espoused the “non serviam” disobedience due to an inability to accept these changes, the overwhelming majority of Catholics had no problem whatsoever. The parishes I attended were just as full as ever, without anybody leaving in rebellion.

Like it or not, by guidance of the Holy Spirit, it is the Ordinary Form of the universal Church. Unless the Lord Himself intervenes through the hierarchy, this mass will remain the Ordinary Form. It will not become a grass-roots supplantation by traditionalists or certain clerics, for they are not endowed with the charism of infallibility guiding the Church.

The TLM was granted special indult, to keep the small minority of dissidents from leaving the church. The Pope shepherded them wisely by permitting the old rite to be continued, rather than see them leave or embrace schism. Many years later (2007) Pope Benedict granted wider permission for celebration by Motu Proprio. I presume the readers are fully informed about this.

My background - I made final promises as a Secular Carmelite back in 1984, and as part of our rule, I pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily and attend daily mass. As many may know, the Carmelites’ charism is contemplative prayer, and if any outrage was to come forth with regard to the new mass, one might think this contemplative order reformed by St. Teresa would be foremost in voicing it. This never happened, and the nuns who formed me and celebrated the new liturgy in our meetings, fully embraced the direction the Spirit was leading the Church. I also practice many of the Church’s devotions, and am fully abreast of the teachings of the Magisterium, and fully obedient. When one comes back full circle as I did, it is with a great passion to read the scriptures and research the teachings of the Church. To avoid deception when I first came back, my spiritual reading consisted primarily of the writings of saints, and I believe my foundation is now built on ROCK. They imbued me with a great love for Jesus, which is what was sadly lacking in my early formation as a child.

My prayer is to ask that readers view the scandalous postings on the internet that ravage the Novus Ordo with a discerning prayerful heart, and realize that there are people who love the new mass and are highly dedicated faithful Catholics that worship within this liturgy.

I also pray that Catholics will avoid seeking answers to their doubts from these infamous posts which only increase confusion, but go to the Church, as Christ asks us. The only way Satan can enter is through the mind. He generally provides elements truth, but out of context to make his deception appear true, and that is the problem with lending an eye or ear to the words he speaks through souls on the web that sincerely bought the lie.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is not the center of these postings, but rather, the extraneous trappings that attempt to pull one away from the Church, create many doubts and instill a horrible division pitting Catholics against one another, contrary to the unity Jesus desires.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Well, I disagree with his opinion. I for one have found great spirituality in Mass in the vernacular. I have been to Mass in another language, and its never the same. Like I mentioned earlier, not everyone will have the same appreciation for Latin like you. You have made the effort, not everyone has time nor the inherent skill to do so. I mean, many people can’t even speak their on native tongue well. Just go around the internet and read people’s posts, how poorly Americans spell in English. Oftentimes they cannot even tell the difference between “they’re” and “their”. Even in CAF, I see more people spell altar as altEr. And you expect for them to have a good appreciation of another language?

of course you do. the NO has brought Catholics even to dissobedience to the Pontifice even more so. it is protestant in nature where every man is his own authority.

 

[CradleCath]

When they go to new lands the Liturgy is always in the local language and the traditions are in accordance with the culture of the land. Not everyone can understand Latin. Here in Canada, and I guess this is true everywhere, we have many immigrants who despite living here for many, many years and use English everyday for communication, still are not as good with English. I know you’re good with Latin, taking from some of your posts. You have to understand not everybody can be like you. Just like not everybody can be like Michael Jordan in basketball or Babe Ruth in baseball.

The Mass of 1962 is not really about the Latin language, though surely one can see the value Latin has to a Church that is present in almost every country in the world from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe. The following link will take you to the countries involved. Just scroll down.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country#By_country

As far as the dumbing down of the Mass for those who do not “speak Latin”…My Mother, who was born a Lutheran in 1914, (whose parents only attended Church for Christmas & Easter) who left school after the 6th grade as many girls did in those years…had no problem with the Latin Mass. I don’t know how many times it must be repeated…everyone had Latin/vernacular missals. It was not a matter of being able to “afford one”. One aquired them somehow…they were as important as food to that generation of Catholics. My parish gave each child a Latin/English missal for their First Communion.

By the time that my generation entered school…during the 40’s, we learned the Mass in school & by attending it daily as a group & asking & answering questions in “religion class” held immediatly after Mass.

The difference between the two Masses is about the actual prayers in each one. It’s about the piety (or lack thereof), it’s about the theology of the two Masses, the propitiatory nature of the prayers in the Tridentine Mass, the humility of the priest & the worshippers (or lack thereof).