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archangel04
Guest
Sometimes people are misguided, but through prayer, patience, and time people can change those views. But still I don’t want to have you 2nd guessing, so leave it all in the hand’s of God.
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JosephdeMaistre
Guest
Indeed, and I would never suggest that it does, although it does put you in good company. When the saints went to Mass, they went to the TLM. And they received the Eucharist on the tongue, kneeling down. And their Mass was celebrated in Latin.
I have to ask myself whether or not the TLM’s reverence influenced them to become more devoted to the Body and Blood. Certainly, the Holy Father thinks so:
“It is known, in fact, that the Latin liturgy of the Church in its various forms, in each century of the Christian era, has been a spur to the spiritual life of many saints, has reinforced many peoples in the virtue of religion and fecundated their piety.”
sanctamissa.org/en/resources/summorum-pontificum.html
I agree! May we do likewise.
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Momofmyangels
Guest
floresco, I have thought often about this and I wonder if the tension is in part due to fact that the OF is so readily available to everyone and the EF is not, even to those who wish to attend it. I’m not saying that this gives us an excuse to be uncharitable to each other, but I have witnessed this “lack of equality” and the tension that it does cause on both sides, those that prefer the EF and those that prefer the OF.
For many years, I watched my parents (and many others with them) pray and ask the bishop for the TLM. For years, they held meetings with the bishop, gathered signatures of supporters of the TLM and prayed very hard to just get the TLM here. Finally, after many years of this, they were told that no matter how many signatures they received, they would never see the TLM here. Even though they NEVER said anything derogatory regarding the NO, and in fact attended (and still do attend) the NO every Sunday, they were not treated with respect and kindness. They tried to express to the bishop that their motivation was simply for the love and reverence they felt for the TLM, and not because they thought the NO was invalid. It created a huge amount of tension between the diocese and the group of people who were asking for the TLM. After the bishop’s comment, my parents resigned themselves from the group because it was not their wish to increase the already tense atmosphere between the TLM group and the diocese. At the time, I thought they were just giving up, but now realize they did the right thing. They continued to pray for the TLM and in the meantime took my siblings and I to as many TLM’s as they could, many out of state and many in a nearby home from a retired priest who had permission from his bishop to say the TLM.
In my experience, it is not easy to be traditional. I saw what my parents went through and I see it now with my own family as well. I think our motivations for being traditional are often misjudged and that can lead to unkindness and hostility.
These are very “touchy” subjects and I agree with Rachel, I often avoid posting for fear I’ll get blasted for what I’ve said. Hopefully, I haven’t offended anyone, I just wanted to share my thoughts.
For many years, I watched my parents (and many others with them) pray and ask the bishop for the TLM. For years, they held meetings with the bishop, gathered signatures of supporters of the TLM and prayed very hard to just get the TLM here. Finally, after many years of this, they were told that no matter how many signatures they received, they would never see the TLM here. Even though they NEVER said anything derogatory regarding the NO, and in fact attended (and still do attend) the NO every Sunday, they were not treated with respect and kindness. They tried to express to the bishop that their motivation was simply for the love and reverence they felt for the TLM, and not because they thought the NO was invalid. It created a huge amount of tension between the diocese and the group of people who were asking for the TLM. After the bishop’s comment, my parents resigned themselves from the group because it was not their wish to increase the already tense atmosphere between the TLM group and the diocese. At the time, I thought they were just giving up, but now realize they did the right thing. They continued to pray for the TLM and in the meantime took my siblings and I to as many TLM’s as they could, many out of state and many in a nearby home from a retired priest who had permission from his bishop to say the TLM.
In my experience, it is not easy to be traditional. I saw what my parents went through and I see it now with my own family as well. I think our motivations for being traditional are often misjudged and that can lead to unkindness and hostility.
These are very “touchy” subjects and I agree with Rachel, I often avoid posting for fear I’ll get blasted for what I’ve said. Hopefully, I haven’t offended anyone, I just wanted to share my thoughts.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I have a different opinion on the situation. I think as Catholics we should be willing to help others achieve the right kind understanding of the Church teachings. Did the Apostles ignore the gentiles because they didn’t believe in Jesus? No, they approached them with charity and preached the Gospel to them. We should do the same thing. By abandoning people and leaving them in the same sinful state we found them, then we didn’t follow what Jesus said that we should preach the Gospel to all nations. As lay people we are not expected to do what priests and missionaries do, but at the very least we should preach to those we come across in our everyday lives.
That’s just my take.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
On the other hand, there were many heretics who also went to mass in the TLM. Martin Luther was even a priest who celebrates the Tridentine Mass.
Its unfair to compare the history of the TLM compared to the history of the OF. Many saints who have gone to the current OF Mass have not been revealed yet because the Pauline Mass is very new.
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rayne89
Guest
I consider myself traditional and I do not attend a TLM. Our OF Mass has no altar girls -and a lot of altar boys, we have kneelers to receive communion, our altar boys use patens during communion, we have a pretty good amount of Latin said at about every other Mass, we have traditional hymns with organ music, we have very few EMHC’s (who double as ushers) and they are only utilized when we are short handed. We also have confession before each and every Mass. We have daily Mass at least 3 times a day -4 on Tuesdays and Thurs and 6 Masses to pick from on Sunday. We also have a Trindetine Mass on Saturday evenings. I prefer the OF myself but I still feel I am traditional.
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Melchior_1
Guest
When one feels threatened it can create tension, and I believe that is what is one of the causes here.
Lets be frank; the implementation of the OF could have been done much better, and those who prefer it were a bit militant in the process for the first few years. Catechizing could have been improved, for one. Explaining that several elements of the OF came from the writings of St. Justin the Martyr (one of our most influential apologists) likely would have made traditionalists happier, and those who supported the new Form certainly could have handled things with more class and dignity (sadly, you look at the 70’s as a whole, the decade was missing class and dignity on all fronts). People went overboard all over the place, and this led to overboard reactions. On one side we have such things as as the SSPV and SSPX being thrown down, on the other side we have other fringe groups.
BXVI in his wisdom tried to strike at the core of this by saying “two Forms, one Rite, both equal”. To me, this was a brilliant idea as it could really make a difference once people understood there were “no sides”, it was the same Rite. What two Forms means is that we have an ability to attend a Mass which can match up with our spirituality. As Catholics we have a wealth of spirituality. Dominican, Franciscan, Salesian, and Ignation to name a few.
But it takes time to heal these wounds, and it’s understandable that people feel threatened from others. Those who like the EF do not want what happened in the 70’s to happen again…and those who support the OF at this point feel as if they are being maligned and understand how their predoscessors handled things…and don’t that to happen to anyone else.
To complicate matters, those who are “traditionalists” feel threatened by “charismatics” because of either poor experiences with the movement, unfamiliarity, or perhaps simply not liking new things. This is especially true for those who had bad experiences with the Mass of Paul VI coming in, as along with that came a wave of Catholics who took the 70’s a bit too much. They “claimed” to be charismatic, which in turn made legitimate charismatic Catholics look awful despite Pope Paul VI’s and Pope John Paul II’s thumbs up. Meanwhile, charismatics also feel under attack; they don’t understand why people get up’n’arms about it. They feel threatened because they, despite being a movement endorsed by many in Rome, they feel as if traditionalists want to shut them down.
In a nutshell that’s it; everyone feels threatened because every feels as if that everyone else is tryign to shut them down.
But maybe…maybe times have changed.
I’ve noticed a new breed in my city, and hopefully other towns/cities will see this. The local FSSP parish is active in the community and participates in events within the diocese. I see there a new generation of traditionalists, those who love the EF but respect and understand that it isn’t for everyone. They have rallied behind our Archbishop and support him, and he in turn supports them. Our local Basilica has introduced several traditional elements into their OF Mass as well, with the full support of our Bishop (who is a Jesuit, I might add).
Meanwhile, a new generation of charismatics have come around. They understand why some people prefer the EF and respect that, and see no issues with the two co-existing. They understand that the music they do at Mass isn’t traditionalists cup of tea, nor the intense prayer group meetings etc etc…but they’re respectful about that, and respect traditionalists and how they do things. Our Archbishop (notice a trend? I suppose things start from the top) fully supports the parishes who choose to embrace this, including the priests from the Order called the Companions of the Cross. He’s supporting youth programs and youth Masses. We have youth signing up for NET Ministries and other missionary groups in high numbers. And you know one of the crazy things about the charismatic movement these days?
Young families with several kids.
The other day I went to a baptism, a couple I know were having their third child baptized. That would be their third child in three years. Another couple is trying for number two. Another couple has number two on the way, yet another couple has number three. My wife and I, after a year and a half of Marriage, are expecting our first. The charismatic movement these days is extraordinarily orthodox, and will pass this down to our children. Our children will, of course, out number the fake charismatics because we’re open to life. And that’s something that upper-case Traditional Catholics (which include charismatics and traditionalists both) share; passing down our beliefs to our children. Our many children, because we’re all open to life.
So now we stand together, traditionalists and charismatics alike. Although different spiritualities, both offer many fruits to the Church as a whole. And in theory we will see the results of this in a few years; a Church unified through the Eucharist.
A man can pray. A man can hope.
Lets be frank; the implementation of the OF could have been done much better, and those who prefer it were a bit militant in the process for the first few years. Catechizing could have been improved, for one. Explaining that several elements of the OF came from the writings of St. Justin the Martyr (one of our most influential apologists) likely would have made traditionalists happier, and those who supported the new Form certainly could have handled things with more class and dignity (sadly, you look at the 70’s as a whole, the decade was missing class and dignity on all fronts). People went overboard all over the place, and this led to overboard reactions. On one side we have such things as as the SSPV and SSPX being thrown down, on the other side we have other fringe groups.
BXVI in his wisdom tried to strike at the core of this by saying “two Forms, one Rite, both equal”. To me, this was a brilliant idea as it could really make a difference once people understood there were “no sides”, it was the same Rite. What two Forms means is that we have an ability to attend a Mass which can match up with our spirituality. As Catholics we have a wealth of spirituality. Dominican, Franciscan, Salesian, and Ignation to name a few.
But it takes time to heal these wounds, and it’s understandable that people feel threatened from others. Those who like the EF do not want what happened in the 70’s to happen again…and those who support the OF at this point feel as if they are being maligned and understand how their predoscessors handled things…and don’t that to happen to anyone else.
To complicate matters, those who are “traditionalists” feel threatened by “charismatics” because of either poor experiences with the movement, unfamiliarity, or perhaps simply not liking new things. This is especially true for those who had bad experiences with the Mass of Paul VI coming in, as along with that came a wave of Catholics who took the 70’s a bit too much. They “claimed” to be charismatic, which in turn made legitimate charismatic Catholics look awful despite Pope Paul VI’s and Pope John Paul II’s thumbs up. Meanwhile, charismatics also feel under attack; they don’t understand why people get up’n’arms about it. They feel threatened because they, despite being a movement endorsed by many in Rome, they feel as if traditionalists want to shut them down.
In a nutshell that’s it; everyone feels threatened because every feels as if that everyone else is tryign to shut them down.
But maybe…maybe times have changed.
I’ve noticed a new breed in my city, and hopefully other towns/cities will see this. The local FSSP parish is active in the community and participates in events within the diocese. I see there a new generation of traditionalists, those who love the EF but respect and understand that it isn’t for everyone. They have rallied behind our Archbishop and support him, and he in turn supports them. Our local Basilica has introduced several traditional elements into their OF Mass as well, with the full support of our Bishop (who is a Jesuit, I might add).
Meanwhile, a new generation of charismatics have come around. They understand why some people prefer the EF and respect that, and see no issues with the two co-existing. They understand that the music they do at Mass isn’t traditionalists cup of tea, nor the intense prayer group meetings etc etc…but they’re respectful about that, and respect traditionalists and how they do things. Our Archbishop (notice a trend? I suppose things start from the top) fully supports the parishes who choose to embrace this, including the priests from the Order called the Companions of the Cross. He’s supporting youth programs and youth Masses. We have youth signing up for NET Ministries and other missionary groups in high numbers. And you know one of the crazy things about the charismatic movement these days?
Young families with several kids.
The other day I went to a baptism, a couple I know were having their third child baptized. That would be their third child in three years. Another couple is trying for number two. Another couple has number two on the way, yet another couple has number three. My wife and I, after a year and a half of Marriage, are expecting our first. The charismatic movement these days is extraordinarily orthodox, and will pass this down to our children. Our children will, of course, out number the fake charismatics because we’re open to life. And that’s something that upper-case Traditional Catholics (which include charismatics and traditionalists both) share; passing down our beliefs to our children. Our many children, because we’re all open to life.
So now we stand together, traditionalists and charismatics alike. Although different spiritualities, both offer many fruits to the Church as a whole. And in theory we will see the results of this in a few years; a Church unified through the Eucharist.
A man can pray. A man can hope.
C
CWBetts
Guest
What parish is this? I am in ohio and it sounds like it would be worth a road trip!
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rayne89
Guest
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Ockham
Guest
Thank you for starting this thread, Floresco. I’ve been thinking about it prior to making a post on it.
Generally speaking, the majority of self-described traditional Catholics believe:
I’ve seen many others say when they discovered the traditional Church they felt deprived as if so many riches were hidden away from them. I experienced this too and perhaps that’s why some negativity enters into some of my posts. It stems from the frustration of living a ‘cafeteria’ style Catholicism and not knowing better. It may also come from a comparision of pre and post V2 statistics such as Mass attendance, seminary enrollment, etc. Certainly the love of the TLM along with the increase in spirituality creates the question of why was this ever taken from us.
There is still prejudice against traditional Catholics and the pre-V2 Church. The Cardinal who gave the sermon at the FSSP seminary chapel Mass was not as charitable as he could have been. The TLM doesn’t get a lot of support or promotion from most diocese in North America. My local bulletins will advertise Taise groups, Protestant social events, Charismatic renewals, etc, but never the two regular EFs in the area.
What I feel would ease the tension is for the non-traditional Catholics to realize the givens and not get emotional when someone states their reasons for being traditional on an issue or subject. If you can’t control yourself then stay in the L&S forum or at least don’t make inflammatory posts here. Traditional Catholics (myself included) could remember to exercise charity and patience and perhaps hold ourselves to a higher standard given the privilege of knowing the traditional Church. Maybe this forum could become a garden of conversions.
Generally speaking, the majority of self-described traditional Catholics believe:
- the EF is better than the OF
- CITH is not a good thing
- EMHCs are over used
- changing the Church is not a good thing
- there has been a break down in authority, catechesis, and identity since V2
I’ve seen many others say when they discovered the traditional Church they felt deprived as if so many riches were hidden away from them. I experienced this too and perhaps that’s why some negativity enters into some of my posts. It stems from the frustration of living a ‘cafeteria’ style Catholicism and not knowing better. It may also come from a comparision of pre and post V2 statistics such as Mass attendance, seminary enrollment, etc. Certainly the love of the TLM along with the increase in spirituality creates the question of why was this ever taken from us.
There is still prejudice against traditional Catholics and the pre-V2 Church. The Cardinal who gave the sermon at the FSSP seminary chapel Mass was not as charitable as he could have been. The TLM doesn’t get a lot of support or promotion from most diocese in North America. My local bulletins will advertise Taise groups, Protestant social events, Charismatic renewals, etc, but never the two regular EFs in the area.
What I feel would ease the tension is for the non-traditional Catholics to realize the givens and not get emotional when someone states their reasons for being traditional on an issue or subject. If you can’t control yourself then stay in the L&S forum or at least don’t make inflammatory posts here. Traditional Catholics (myself included) could remember to exercise charity and patience and perhaps hold ourselves to a higher standard given the privilege of knowing the traditional Church. Maybe this forum could become a garden of conversions.
C
CWBetts
Guest
On the other hand, if traditionalists would stop using terms like “the New Mass” for the Novus Ordo and “the True Mass” for the TLM it would be helpful. Admitting that the two forms are equal (as the pope has stated) would be helpful as well. I have never once said that the EF is in any way inferior, but I have heard many times that the OF is “Protestant,” “objectively inferior” and an “innovation.” This is not a one sided problem. Traditionalists seem to reject the legitimate diversity within the Church. Just because we are all CAtholic does not mean all worship styles must be identical.
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Ockham
Guest
There is nothing wrong with the term “Novus Ordo” as Pope Paul VI described it. The NO is forty years old. In relative terms, in a Church two thousand years old it is still new. In a couple hundred years I’ll stop calling it new. It does have Protestant influences. People prefer one over the other for reasons. If you get upset with them for their reasons this and other threads get locked.
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Momofmyangels
Guest
You are very blessed to have such a parish in your area. What I wouldn’t give to have this!!!
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Ockham
Guest
That’s standard human behavior. What’s uncanny is after a long debate with someone here it often comes out they are a married decon, EMHC, “Liturgical Minister” or teach RCIA. If the Church were to return to a more tradtional practice then those laity roles would be diminished or eliminated.
Further, there is an element in many parishes that want married and/or women priests, divorce, contraception, etc. Usually they are the first ones looking for the latest novelty or creativity in the liturgy. They see traditional Catholics as obstacles to their agenda and work to have them repressed.
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Momofmyangels
Guest
This has been exactly my experience and because of it, traditional Catholics are not welcome to be just that…traditional.
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Melchior_1
Guest
What’s wrong with laity teaching RCIA? Did I miss the memo where that was bad?
(not sure if this will make you and others feel any better) that “they” want to suppress charismatic Catholics as well. Something about orthodoxy and favoring Sacred Tradition not being compatible with their ideas of liberalism.
They don’t want Traditional Catholics (which is any Catholic who follows Sacred Tradition), and they will do whatever they can to get rid of them. Both charismatic and traditional.
EDIT: And how do they do this? Feeding off the tensions between the two groups. They play up the differences and make it a big deal. A part of me wonders if they infiltrate either movement to make the other look bad.
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ProVobis
Guest
And exactly how do non-identical worship “styles” make us Catholic/Universal? I should at least recognize a Catholic Mass when I see one, no?
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CWBetts
Guest
The permanent Deaconate is actually a throwback to the early Church. Though I don’t necessarily think that married clergy is the direction the West should go, celibacy is a reformable discipline. You are ranting here in the way that makes one think that you feel that Traditionalism is the only legitimate expression of the Church.
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CWBetts
Guest
How do Identical worship stiles make us universal?
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ProVobis
Guest
Indeed. And there is nothing offensive in the Novus Ordo Missae because that’s what it’s called. I guess so much is always lost in “translations” to English (like NO Mass) that all of a sudden it becomes offensive and deregatory. Problem is with the vernacular. (So what’s new?)
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