dealing with EF/OF tension

[wisdomseeker]

In Chicago: St. John Cantius, St. Gelasius,
In Rockford: St. Mary

In these parishes there are a heck of a lot more than 1% EF supporters. And before their restorations, there were close to 0 NO supporters.

I suggest you also look at statistics in France and Germany before you start spreading your “Ha, ha, we’ve got the numbers to wipe you guys out” mentality. Then we wonder why we have tension?

 

[Sirach2]

ProVobis:

I suggest you also look at statistics in France and Germany before you start spreading your “Ha, ha, we’ve got the numbers to wipe you guys out” mentality. Then we wonder why we have tension?

:ehh: Was there a particular reason for this nastiness? Do you always twist and read evil in peoples’ words? How does France and Germany equate with the 1% of trads in my area? Do you believe I lied to make a point?

As for your point, you cited only three parishes. Is this what you consider a majority?

Maybe I should be a bit blunt and remind those who delight in this type of hostility that this forum was closed awhile back, and it is not immune to a future sabbatical. Nothing I said warranted this attack, but if this is the way traditionalists generally think/speak/act, then it is no wonder they are not welcomed by the bishops for their own liturgies.

 

[MarkThompson]

In Chicago: St. John Cantius, St. Gelasius,
In Rockford: St. Mary

In these parishes there are a heck of a lot more than 1% EF supporters. And before their restorations, there were close to 0 NO supporters.

I suggest you also look at statistics in France and Germany before you start spreading your “Ha, ha, we’ve got the numbers to wipe you guys out” mentality. Then we wonder why we have tension?

The last several high Masses I’ve been to at St. John Cantius (which, as you know, gets tons of press on NLM and similar sites, is considered a nationwide model for this sort of thing, and draws people from far around) have been around a third full. That’s great, and I’m very glad St. John Cantius is there and doing what it does, but we have to recognize that it’s not exactly an argument for opening up another ten TLMs on Chicago’s near west side.

 

[ProVobis]

Is this what you consider a majority?

So the majority rules in these matters? Keep knocking and belittling the EF, just don’t wonder when their supporters swing back or save your parishes.

 

[LittleSoldier]

In Chicago: St. John Cantius, St. Gelasius,
In Rockford: St. Mary

In these parishes there are a heck of a lot more than 1% EF supporters. And before their restorations, there were close to 0 NO supporters.

I suggest you also look at statistics in France and Germany before you start spreading your “Ha, ha, we’ve got the numbers to wipe you guys out” mentality. Then we wonder why we have tension?

What is going on in this thread? Why is there so much nastiness and hostility? Your last paragraph goes way beyond appropriate. This isn’t a war! This is about the Holy Mass, the celebration of the Last Supper!!

We can’t have a Latin Mass where I live. There is one priest for two parishes twenty-five miles apart and the geography makes it unlikely that the parishes will be combined. We love our parishes and our priest and we do what we can to make them nice. I hate to think of this hostility in the House of God.

What you said is so uncharitable it makes me ill.

 

[corsair]

Believe it or not I have read every post on this thread. My overall impression is that there have been a “few” good posts but its mostly been a “high-schoolers” battle.

Sorry but just sit back and look at it. "he said, she said, no I didn’t, yes, you did, neener neener.

I’m out of here.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Just ask mother Angelic about all she went through trying to hold on to the Traditional teachings of the Church.

the other day watching one of her shows, someone called and said that EWTN wasnt even allowed in the callers town. i could say that mother Angelic fell like crying. all because those who supports the NO were so eagle to stop the Holy Mass of all times.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Just ask mother Angelic about all she went through trying to hold on to the Traditional teachings of the Church.

the other day watching one of her shows, someone called and said that EWTN wasnt even allowed in the callers town. i could say that mother Angelic fell like crying. all because those who supports the NO were so eagle to stop the Holy Mass of all times.

See, this thread is about dealing with the tension, but some see it fit to create more tension with statements like this.

That is why the battle never ends. Lack of charity and humility.

 

[floresco]

Believe it or not I have read every post on this thread. My overall impression is that there have been a “few” good posts but its mostly been a “high-schoolers” battle.

I am pretty disappointed with this thread myself. I started it because I am sick of the hostility and tension in EF/OF discussions. I want to be charitable. I want to be reasonable. But I am a trad and I want to say what I really think. And it looks like the typical trad positions automatically come across as uncharitable and unreasonable because we won’t say that our views are subjective preferences. I’m asking for ideas on how trads and non-trads can talk to each other and be both honest and charitable. And I’m not getting much in the way of answers. Mostly it’s been more of the hostility and tension that I am sick of.

But corsair, maybe you could have answered my question instead of just complaining.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am pretty disappointed with this thread myself. I started it because I am sick of the hostility and tension in EF/OF discussions. I want to be charitable. I want to be reasonable. But I am a trad and I want to say what I really think. And it looks like the typical trad positions automatically come across as uncharitable and unreasonable because we won’t say that our views are subjective preferences. I’m asking for ideas on how trads and non-trads can talk to each other and be both honest and charitable. And I’m not getting much in the way of answers. Mostly it’s been more of the hostility and tension that I am sick of.

But corsair, maybe you could have answered my question instead of just complaining.

I tried to, my apoligies if it comes out as hostile. I do make an effort not to be, I know you genuinely seek a good solution to this.

 

[floresco]

That is why the battle never ends. Lack of charity and humility.

I would appreciate it if you were to point out examples of my lack of charity and humility, especially if you gave constructive ideas on what I can do to improve. But when you accuse people who have not asked for this assistance it seems unlikely to be productive.

 

[MarkThompson]

I am pretty disappointed with this thread myself. I started it because I am sick of the hostility and tension in EF/OF discussions. I want to be charitable. I want to be reasonable. But I am a trad and I want to say what I really think. And it looks like the typical trad positions automatically come across as uncharitable and unreasonable because we won’t say that our views are subjective preferences. I’m asking for ideas on how trads and non-trads can talk to each other and be both honest and charitable. And I’m not getting much in the way of answers. Mostly it’s been more of the hostility and tension that I am sick of.

But corsair, maybe you could have answered my question instead of just complaining.

Well, let’s be clear – Floresco, I think you’re doing a fine job. If people discussed things as you have, there would probably be a lot of very fruitful discussion and not much conflict. Instead, the dialogue on this board often proceeds, “I’m not saying the Novus Ordo church is a modernist sacrilege produced by Protestants and Freemasons, but we judge by the fruits and these fruits are pretty rank and putrid. The incense we burn at my True Mass of All The Ages Et In Saecula Saeculorum can hardly mask the stench.” (Actually, among the really bad specimens of this type, the Latin would be brutally misspelled.) On a board of another stripe, you’d have, “I’m not saying that all people who like the outdated Mass are Pharasaical crypto-antisemites who would like nothing more than to turn back the clock and go to Mass by themselves in utter silence so they can pray their Rosary (no heretical Luminous Mysteries, please), then go back home to their ‘womenfolk’ barefoot in the kitchen of their Montana compound … but they wouldn’t be the only ones.”

So, if you’re asking how we can be more productive, the answer would be to converse more like you, and less like the exemplars I’ve given above. You know those aren’t very far off from being true-to-life.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would appreciate it if you were to point out examples of my lack of charity and humility, especially if you gave constructive ideas on what I can do to improve. But when you accuse people who have not asked for this assistance it seems unlikely to be productive.

I would rather avoid calling people out but I had to address that post I quoted. Sorry, I was not referring to you. As I mentioned in my previous post, I see your effort in this thread as genuine. I don’t know where you get that I was referring to you by that statement.

 

[floresco]

I would rather avoid calling people out but I had to address that post I quoted. Sorry, I was not referring to you. As I mentioned in my previous post, I see your effort in this thread as genuine. I don’t know where you get that I was referring to you by that statement.

I didn’t think you were referring to me. I just wish that you were. As far as I recall, I’m the only one in this thread who has asked for help in relating to non-trads. Calling out anyone else just adds to the bad feeling. I’d like you to criticize me. Well, I probably wouldn’t, but I would like to like to.

 

[wisdomseeker]

See, this thread is about dealing with the tension, but some see it fit to create more tension with statements like this.

That is why the battle never ends. Lack of charity and humility.

why? should we hide this truth in order to be charitable?
that is it, the modernist idea is that we must hide the Truth in order to be charible.
just imagine this kind of language being used in Jesus day. do you think that Jesus was going to stop speaking the Truth because someone could call Him uncharitable?

remember St Peter? he told the pharisees, should we please man or God?
i reather please God.

 

[archangel04]

If my Car broke down I’d take my Truck and if it broke down I’d take my Camper and if all three broke down then perhaps it would be the Will of GOD that I go to the OF and since that hasnt happened - then I should assume it isnt his will under the same line of thinking. And BTW I did See the Pope (JPII) already in St Louis I waved as he went by and I didnt even have to go to an OF Mass to do it.

Hey I was there in St. Luis as well. I remember that night being very cold and then late morning getting really warm alsmost close to the 60’s range.

Yes, I see where I failed to make my entire point. But it seems that after the breakup the woman was left where she was. I should have said that he didn’t have to continue the relationship with her but at least help her get in line with the teaching of the Church.

We should always see ourselves as a blessing to other people. They are blessings to our lives as well. We are a blessing to each other. We should follow the will of the Father when He brings us together. He wants us all to return to Him, so we should do what we can to accomplish that.

Some threads here an OP will ask about an abuse happening in their parish. Whats the most common response? Go, run to the nearest TLM parish. But why? Perhaps you are the only one who recognizes the abuse, why will you let your fellow Catholics continue to live in error? Why not stay in the parish and effect change? Sure, its not easy, but what in life is? Jesus carried the cross and died for our sins, why are we chickening out of a little fight inside a parish when it is a fight for Jesus himself that He may be worshiped and glorified the right way?

True and I agree about helping the person out, but sometimes there isn’t much you can do. I was with this person for almsot 4 years, and it’s been almost 2 years since the break up, but I will still say a Rosary for her because I know she has fallen very far away from the Church.

The problem about noticing the abuse is that sometimes the parish priest does not see it so. This will then cause one to feel as if you did something wrong for bringing it up to the priest, and it’s not a good feeling. Althought the solution always isn’t to run to the nearest EF, but if one feels that your spiritually or parey life will not work in that parish, than by all means go to another paish.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I didn’t think you were referring to me. I just wish that you were. As far as I recall, I’m the only one in this thread who has asked for help in relating to non-trads. Calling out anyone else just adds to the bad feeling. I’d like you to criticize me. Well, I probably wouldn’t, but I would like to like to.

But how do you criticize one who makes an effort to understand the other? Have you read my other reply to you 2 pages back? I asked if you can employ more empathy and see why and how Pauline Mass goers see the beauty in the simplicity of the form of Mass, and how much it brings us closer to Christ.

You see in anything you want to understand, the best way is to experience it. I just hope you find a good, obedient OF parish to fulfill this experience. But the best place to find people so “on fire” in the faith, as a Catechist I attend a quarterly Formation Institute in our diocese for Catechists and Youth Ministry Leaders. There you will find the best examples of very obedient, very faithful Catholics who exclusively go to the Pauline Mass (given that there is only one EF parish in our archdiocese, I’m confident that we all are). Seek these people out, comingle, and see that there are indeed devout people whos souls are enriched by the Pauline Mass.

 

[floresco]

So, if you’re asking how we can be more productive, the answer would be to converse more like you, and less like the exemplars I’ve given above. You know those aren’t very far off from being true-to-life.

I think you are meaning to be kind (unless you are out to get me for that “Mark the Shredder” comment the other day ) but saying that I do better than the most unpleasant extremes isn’t much of a compliment.

Seriously though, I am doing one of the things that clearly bothers a lot of people. I am expressing views comparing the EF to OF as objective statements. This seems like it ought to be an area where I could improve, but I’m just not seeing how to do it without compromising my intellectual integrity.

 

[ConstantineTG]

True and I agree about helping the person out, but sometimes there isn’t much you can do. I was with this person for almsot 4 years, and it’s been almost 2 years since the break up, but I will still say a Rosary for her because I know she has fallen very far away from the Church.

Yes, I know. Now in reflection, I know of someone from my past too who has fallen. Sometimes praying for someone is all that we can do, and its also whats best to do. But when we have a chance to go into action, we should take it.

The problem about noticing the abuse is that sometimes the parish priest does not see it so. This will then cause one to feel as if you did something wrong for bringing it up to the priest, and it’s not a good feeling. Althought the solution always isn’t to run to the nearest EF, but if one feels that your spiritually or parey life will not work in that parish, than by all means go to another paish.

But I feel its someone who knows something is wrong and runs away doesn’t help anyone else but themselves. Aren’t we supposed to give ourself for others? Oftentimes we see the non-Christians and the Protestants and we feel we should convert them. But we fail to see that many people within our own Church needs conversion themselves. We stop evangelizing to Catholics because they’re Catholics and we just leave it at that. But many Catholics are poorly catechized and they fall easy pray to the evangelization of Protestants. We shouldn’t abandon our brothers and sisters.

 

[MarkThompson]

Seriously though, I am doing one of the things that clearly bothers a lot of people. I am expressing views comparing the EF to OF as objective statements. This seems like it ought to be an area where I could improve, but I’m just not seeing how to do it without compromising my intellectual integrity.

Well, any two things can be objectively compared. I think one thing that people occasionally find offensive, though, is when someone takes a subjective evaluation and insists that it is objective. It’s a way of saying that someone’s feeling and opinions are innately wrong. The most frequent case of that around here, I’d have to say, is the discussion of what is and isn’t reverent. “CITH is just less reverent,” one person will say. “Oh yeah?” says the other, “I receive CITH, and I’m completely reverent about it.” What exactly is the answer to that? No, you’re not? You’re deluding yourself? It’s a hopeless and somewhat offensive argument, since you’re trying to show that the other person’s reverence can’t really be as great as he claims it is. That’s not going to sit very well. The other thing that doesn’t sit very well is this: “Your Mass is less reverent. I’m not saying you’re necessarily less reverent for preferring it … but, well, people can draw their own conclusions.”

If you can avoid qualifiers like those by describing things in terms that can actually be discussed and argued other than by opinion and fiat, then I think you’re going somewhere.