dealing with EF/OF tension

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You see in anything you want to understand, the best way is to experience it. I just hope you find a good, obedient OF parish to fulfill this experience. But the best place to find people so “on fire” in the faith, as a Catechist I attend a quarterly Formation Institute in our diocese for Catechists and Youth Ministry Leaders. There you will find the best examples of very obedient, very faithful Catholics who exclusively go to the Pauline Mass (given that there is only one EF parish in our archdiocese, I’m confident that we all are). Seek these people out, comingle, and see that there are indeed devout people whos souls are enriched by the Pauline Mass.
I am married to someone like that and and myself attended the OF exclusively for almost 30 years. I have no doubt at all that there are devout people who benefit from the OF. I know many very faithful, very obedient Catholics who attend it. They are probably better Catholics than I am. My spouse is a better Catholic than I am. I understand that form of Mass and have had many moving spiritual experiences with it. I like and admire many people who go there.

But I am trained in theology. And when I look at the two forms of Mass, one expresses Catholic Eucharistic theology clearly and beautifully and the other, in comparison, does not. And when I say this to people they are hurt and offended which is not what I wish to cause.
 
why? should we hide this truth in order to be charitable?
The truth should not be hidden, but what you speak of is it really the truth? You have spat out claim after claim but have offered no proof to any of them. So they are just baseless accusations you claim to be truths? The seriousness of the matter begs for substantiated facts. Otherwise, its just gossip meant to create chaos.
that is it, the modernist idea is that we must hide the Truth in order to be charible.
just imagine this kind of language being used in Jesus day. do you think that Jesus was going to stop speaking the Truth because someone could call Him uncharitable?
Ah, classic. You don’t agree with me so you just dismiss me as a modernist so you don’t have to deal with the facts. If you do bear the truth, why do you hide behind such cowardly stereotyping? Shouldn’t the truth vindicate you by itself? Jesus was charitable because he always spoke the truth. He didn’t stereotype anyone to dismiss them, he didn’t play to people’s emotions. He always spoke the truth and the truth justified itself.
remember St Peter? he told the pharisees, should we please man or God?
i reather please God.
But do you please God by creating division among men? God is not pleased by division and hatred. Love of God and love of neighbor cannot be separated. We cannot hate another person and claim to love God, nor can we hate God and claim we love the human race. If you truly love God you will abide by His commandments, and among those commandments is to love thy neighbor.
 
Well, any two things can be objectively compared. I think one thing that people occasionally find offensive, though, is when someone takes a subjective evaluation and insists that it is objective. It’s a way of saying that someone’s feeling and opinions are innately wrong. The most frequent case of that around here, I’d have to say, is the discussion of what is and isn’t reverent. “CITH is just less reverent,” one person will say. “Oh yeah?” says the other, “I receive CITH, and I’m completely reverent about it.” What exactly is the answer to that? No, you’re not? You’re deluding yourself? It’s a hopeless and somewhat offensive argument, since you’re trying to show that the other person’s reverence can’t really be as great as he claims it is. That’s not going to sit very well. The other thing that doesn’t sit very well is this: “Your Mass is less reverent. I’m not saying you’re necessarily less reverent for preferring it … but, well, people can draw their own conclusions.”

If you can avoid qualifiers like those by describing things in terms that can actually be discussed and argued other than by opinion and fiat, then I think you’re going somewhere.
I think it is possible to discuss external reverence in objective terms but not interior reverence. But discussions of that topic become hopelessly muddled very quickly. People do not seem prepared to make the careful distinctions and definitions such a discussion would require. So I have been staying away from the “reverence” thing for a while now.

Recently I have been trying to limit my objective claims to theological expression. Even then, I think that simply using the word “objective” puts people’s backs up. Perhaps that is unavoidable but can be worked through. I can try to keep your ideas in mind the next time it comes up. As usual, I find you insightful and helpful.
 
I think it is possible to discuss external reverence in objective terms but not interior reverence. But discussions of that topic become hopelessly muddled very quickly. People do not seem prepared to make the careful distinctions and definitions such a discussion would require. So I have been staying away from the “reverence” thing for a while now.

Recently I have been trying to limit my objective claims to theological expression. Even then, I think that simply using the word “objective” puts people’s backs up. Perhaps that is unavoidable but can be worked through. I can try to keep your ideas in mind the next time it comes up. As usual, I find you insightful and helpful.
The issue with reverence is it is really hard to quantify, thus hard to objectively compare. Its like if we will discuss who among us is more handsome, it would be very, very hard. But if you bring in Brad Pitt, hands down we all lose. So unless there is a significant difference in reverence, its hard to compare. Like it would be easy to say the Pope is more reverent than any of us. But between us, its more difficult.
 
And now we can have a few pages discussing how we are not discussing reverence. 😃
 
Recently I have been trying to limit my objective claims to theological expression. Even then, I think that simply using the word “objective” puts people’s backs up. Perhaps that is unavoidable but can be worked through. I can try to keep your ideas in mind the next time it comes up. As usual, I find you insightful and helpful.
I think it is only natural that when those people who are loyal to the Pope and the Magisterium and who receive spiritual nourishment from the OF get their backs up when someone claims that the EF is objectively superior in any way, shape or form. What are they supposed to think? That the Church they love has foisted upon them an inferior form of worship? That the four most recent popes and the entire episcopy are so lacking in theological expertise and care for the flock that they just can’t for the life of them see the impoverished product, that is celebrated hundreds of thousands of times a day around the world and attended by millions of faithful Catholics, that certain laymen claim to see?
At last evening’s Mass the Gospel reading was Mathew 16.13-23, where it describes Jesus instituting His Church. During the homily, the pastor spoke about how a braclet with the initials WWJD what would Jesus do] were very popular. He said that personally he would never wear one, because in his experience with many who did and do wear one, the initials really should be WWIHJD What would **I have **Jesus do? Reflect on that for a moment and then tell me how asserting that one can make an objective claim about either form of the liturgy that is contrary to what the Church herself teaches is any different.
 
Reflect on that for a moment and then tell me how asserting that one can make an objective claim about either form of the liturgy that is contrary to what the Church herself teaches is any different.
I do not think that I have asserted something that is contrary to what the Church herself teaches. I accept the authority of the Church. If you (or anyone) were to show me that my claims about the theology of the OF were against Church teaching, then I would repudiate my claims.
 
I do not think that I have asserted something that is contrary to what the Church herself teaches. I accept the authority of the Church. If you (or anyone) were to show me that my claims about the theology of the OF were against Church teaching, then I would repudiate my claims.
The problem is that claims have been made without evidence to support them. When claims are made, they have to be supported or it just comes across as pontificating
 
The problem is that claims have been made without evidence to support them. When claims are made, they have to be supported or it just comes across as pontificating
In this thread I have been referring to claims that I have made elsewhere, so I have not given the full argument. I have avoided doing so because it would derail the thread. However, I will do so now.
(Fare well, original topic 👋 )

The prayers in the OF do not clearly present the Church’s teaching that the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice. The OF does not deny this doctrine and it is even hinted at in an ambiguous way, but there is nothing with a clarity comparable to this prayer in the EF:

Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligence; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting.
 
In this thread I have been referring to claims that I have made elsewhere, so I have not given the full argument. I have avoided doing so because it would derail the thread. However, I will do so now.
(Fare well, original topic 👋 )

The prayers in the OF do not clearly present the Church’s teaching that the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice. The OF does not deny this doctrine and it is even hinted at in an ambiguous way, but there is nothing with a clarity comparable to this prayer in the EF:

Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligence; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting.
I will admit that the EF is a more eloquent Mass, but the Mass is still explicitly referred to as a sacrifice:
We come to you Father, with praise and thanksgiving through Jesus Christ your Son. Through him we ask you to accept and bless these gifts we offer you in sacrifice.

This is just one instance. If you would like I can point out every reference in the NO that reaffirms that it is very much a sacrifice.
 
A comparison between EF &OF on that would be nice 😉
It is getting late for me now. I will work on it tomorrow, and show that th Novus Ordo in no way denies the reality of the Mass as a Sacrifice
 
I do not think that I have asserted something that is contrary to what the Church herself teaches. I accept the authority of the Church. If you (or anyone) were to show me that my claims about the theology of the OF were against Church teaching, then I would repudiate my claims.
Perhaps you could show us where the Church Herself asserts that the EF is objectively superior in its theology to the OF. If you cannot do so, then indeed you have made assertions contrary to Church teachings. You are the one who made the claim, so it is your burden to prove, not mine.
I do believe that the EF is the superior liturgy. And I don’t see that there is anything wrong with respectfully presenting the reasons why I think so. But I can’t insist on a position being true unless the Church teaches it is true. If the Church does not teach it, then it is my fallible opinion.
This is the principle that I have been trying to use to navigate through these storms: I can not make claims that go beyond Church teaching. The Church is the teacher of truth and I can hold fast to the truths I receive from her. What I have not received as truth from the Church could be wrong and I can not hold on to it the same way.
The above is your second post on this thread, You went from saying that you saw nothing wrong with saying why you thought the EF is a superior liturgy, and one should not take umbrage with a person’s subjective opinions . However form this rather conciliatory post you went on to expand from subjective opinion to objective [in your opinion of course] claims. I was always told that objective statements have to be backed up by solid, verifiable evidence. That an objective claim must be completely unbiased, not touched by the claimant’s own experiences or tastes. Can you honestly say that your statements of objectivity are unbiased?
I realize that being human, our emotions, personal desires and experiences colour most of our thoughts and opinions and that is fine. If we could all sometimes swallow our pride and admit to that, perhaps some of the tensions we see so often here would lessen.
 
Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligence; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting.
There was a case made where this is not the best translation of the Latin. “Hostia” can be “victim” as well and that’s the way some books translate it as it is used after the consecration as well. “Victim” conveys the sacrificial idea better in my opinion, though the bread and wine haven’t been consecrated yet.
 
We come to you Father, with praise and thanksgiving through Jesus Christ your Son. Through him we ask you to accept and bless these gifts we offer you in sacrifice.
I think in the new translation the priest’s sacrifice will be distinguished from the people’s sacrifice. It won’t be “our” sacrifice any more, and I think it’s important to note that.
 
There was a case made where this is not the best translation of the Latin. “Hostia” can be “victim” as well and that’s the way some books translate it as it is used after the consecration as well. “Victim” conveys the sacrificial idea better in my opinion, though the bread and wine haven’t been consecrated yet.
But the English word “host” in this sense does mean a sacrificial victim. It’s just the Anglicization of the Latin hostia. What else could “host” mean besides victim? Certainly not, sort of, a host organism for Jesus to reside in for a while.
 
And it looks like the typical trad positions automatically come across as uncharitable and unreasonable because we won’t say that our views are subjective preferences.
Let me say I consider myself fairly traditional even though I attend an OF Mass -explained earlier we have a very traditional parish. I think the problem is -the Church in Rome, the Holy See, the Pope -have not said one is better than the other, which is why I believe people get irked when a person of either preference (OF or EF) says their views are not a subjective preference. And to me it seems odd, especially because I think of traditionalists as those who see Rome as the final word in all things, that in this particular case a person who says they are traditional does not accept that the OF Mass is the the “ordinary” Mass of the Catholic Church -meaning the usual Mass, most often celebrated Mass and this is fine with Rome when celebrated as it supposed to be.

Now I am not blind to some of the abuses that have cropped up in certain OF parishes. I am blessed to have an abuse-free OF Mass -which is said mostly in the vernacular but often with a good deal of Latin, some women veil and some don’t, the priest faces us instead in the same direction as those in the pews, and we have the sign of peace -other than that we have the “bells and smells”, we kneel for communion, we have only altar boys, we have limited use of EMHCs, we only have organ music with traditional hymns, we receive by intinction except of course when an EMHC is utilized. I have access to a Trindetine Mass every Saturday at my parish. My personal preference is the OF.

If the only Mass available to me was an EF I would attend one without hesitation and if a “happy clappy” OF Mass was all that was available to me I would attend that without hesitation because to me the most important thing is fulfilling my Sunday obligation. Not whether I like the music, or the attire of those in the pews, or having to kneel on the floor because there are no kneelers.

I do not like to see abuses. It grieves me and sometimes greatly irritates me. I think the big problem is a huge lack of cathechesis over several generations has left a large portion of the laity at the mercy of a few rogue heterodox who think they know better than the pope and the rest of the laity simply do not know better.

I know what an abuse free OF looks like and that is my subjective preference. I love Latin but I do like having some of the Mass in the vernacular, I do not feel personally called to veil (if the church required it I would do it without question), I grew up with the priest facing us so that is what I am used to and the church says that is a legitimate way to celebrate Mass. If I grew up with that and found out later it was an abuse I would get over my preference for it. Like I did with the hand holding with the Our Father. I grew up with it and I liked it but once I found out that is not the way it should be done I know longer do it -I keep my hands pressed together in prayer and have become accustom to that.

My biggest concern is always following what the Church teaches. If the church allows things to be done in more than one way and have a preference that is available to me that’s what I go with. If others have a difference but legitimate preference all the more power to them. If I have a preference that I find in not line with Church teaching than I get over that preference.

So my long winded explanation is when you say your preference is not subjective people that have a different but equally legitimate preference get irked. Now I think you could say I personally feel the EF is more reverent -but I realize the Church does not say it is more reverent people may be less defensive. Because I think what irritates a lot of people is that by saying its not a subjective preference is that you come across as not adhering to what the Church teaches. And as a traditionalist I would think this would not be how you would want to be viewed.

I think some who prefer the EF especially those who did not grow up with it, have been subjected to too many abuses in the OF (which really stems from the environment in the parish and not the form of the Mass it self) that they have become permanently turned off by the OF Mass -which is not an unreasonable reaction.
 
I cannot anticipate his reasons, unfortunately. You may want to ask him kindly what the problem is. Generally, our bishops encounter great difficulties trying to administer all the parishes in their diocese, and many factors go into their decisions. Our Catholic newspaper just announced this week that one priest is retiring at 80 years of age and it required the move of eight priests, as he tried to fill his shoes. This parish was ethnic, so it will be difficult to replace him, as the new pastor does not speak Polish. God bless 53 years of service by this faithful priest!
If the retirement of ONE priest causes such a problem in your diocese, if only one Mass is said each Sunday…I’d say that your diocese certainly needs SOMETHING. Perhaps a TLM. in each city…instead of each parish, would increase Vocations in your area.
 
:ehh: Was there a particular reason for this nastiness? Do you always twist and read evil in peoples’ words? How does France and Germany equate with the 1% of trads in my area? Do you believe I lied to make a point?

As for your point, you cited only three parishes. Is this what you consider a majority?

Maybe I should be a bit blunt and remind those who delight in this type of hostility that this forum was closed awhile back, and it is not immune to a future sabbatical. Nothing I said warranted this attack, but if this is the way traditionalists generally think/speak/act, then it is no wonder they are not welcomed by the bishops for their own liturgies.
There’s no need for this kind of anger. Though I haven’t posted here, I’ve read completely through this thread & I’d say that it has been going rather nicely. Let’s try to keep it that way!!!🙂
 
Perhaps you could show us where the Church Herself asserts that the EF is objectively superior in its theology to the OF. If you cannot do so, then indeed you have made assertions contrary to Church teachings. You are the one who made the claim, so it is your burden to prove, not mine.
As far as I know, the Church has not made any official statements comparing the theology of the two forms of Mass. I am not contradicting the Church, if she is silent on the topic. I would not knowingly say anything contrary to Church teaching and I welcome anyone correcting me if I should do so inadvertently.
The above is your second post on this thread, You went from saying that you saw nothing wrong with saying why you thought the EF is a superior liturgy, and one should not take umbrage with a person’s subjective opinions . However form this rather conciliatory post you went on to expand from subjective opinion to objective [in your opinion of course] claims. I was always told that objective statements have to be backed up by solid, verifiable evidence. That an objective claim must be completely unbiased, not touched by the claimant’s own experiences or tastes. Can you honestly say that your statements of objectivity are unbiased?
I realize that being human, our emotions, personal desires and experiences colour most of our thoughts and opinions and that is fine. If we could all sometimes swallow our pride and admit to that, perhaps some of the tensions we see so often here would lessen.
I think that anyone who honestly looks at the two forms of Mass side by side and compares them against Church teaching on the Eucharist (for example the CCC passages on the topic) will see that the EF is the clearer expression of doctrine. I do not think this is affected by experiences or tastes. I consider an assertion of the greater theological clarity of the EF to be an objective claim.

What is subjective is that I consider this difference important enough that I prefer the EF over the OF because of it. In spite of this preference, I will attend the OF if necessary to meet my Sunday obligation (or even other reasons) and be thankful to be there. I, in no way, deny its validity.
 
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