dealing with EF/OF tension

[CradleCath]

Not necessary. We’re not talking major documents, we’re talking simple prayers. When you “learned” the Our Father in its cadences and syllables, did you understand it the same way you do today? Of course not. I memorized the Latin Credo when I was still in grade school, though I took no Latin classes till I was in high school. The understanding become automatic and fluourished because I was exposed to it all the time.** Maybe it’s the way they teach it these days, but I don’t see much better understanding of the Mass today than 50 years ago.** I just don’t agree with the “since it’s in my language, I can now understand it” stuff anymore than if I were to tell you π was approximately 3.141593 and now you completely understand exactly what π was. You may THINK you understand it but you wouldn’t have a clue as to what it represents.

Not much is expected of our children in today’s Church. We sent our 4 through 12 years of “post-Vatican II” Catholic schools. What a waste of MONEY!!! They do not understand the Mass nearly as well as my husband & I did 50 yrs. ago. I thought that we were doing the right thing, sending them to parochial school, however…it was harder to “unteach” the faulty theology they picked up there, than to just teach it myself in the first place.

The values that the nuns taught my husband & myself are absent in today’s schools…both Catholic &, of course, secular. We were taught the importance of **self-**discipline, the absolute necessity of repecting others & ourselves. We were taught that anything less than our best…just wasn’t acceptable. (The phrase “You’ll need to do that over, dear” still resonates in my mind.It didn’t take long for me to learn to do it right the first time.) These wonderful women considered it their DUTY to God to educate Catholic leaders who could hold their own in a secular world…both morally & intellectually.

So, you mustn’t expect post Vatican II Catholics to try ANYTHING that might be just a bit different or hard. for crying out loud. There’s just NO WAY they are going to put in an effort to learn enough Latin to, at least, understand Et Cum Spiritu Tuo. They will never know that that phrase is NOT “& also with you”. It should have been translated “& with your Spirit” as it’s greeting which can only be made by a Christian assembly TO AN ORDAINED MAN since the reference is to the spirit of holy ordination In fact, judging by the homilies they are hearing every Sun., the Church has no RIGHT to tell them “You are wrong, that is a sin, I don’t care what your Protestant friends do…you are a Catholic.”

My daughter has accompanied us to the Latin Mass twice now & loves it. She doesn’t understand it, but she WANTS to & that’s really all it takes. I’ve ordered a DVD. that will help & surely some of the FSSP or the Institute of Christ The King Sovereign Priests will soon be offering some classes. It will mean a 120 miles round trip, but it will be worth it. I’ll be working on the 3 boys next.

 

[floresco]

So this thread caught my eye. I’m losing my charity, and I don’t know what to do . For 7 years I’ve really tried, but I feel like I’ve got Stockholm syndrome and I don’t even know who I am anymore.

There is much that is distressing and I too often struggle to be charitable (or fail in charity altogether). It helps me to think that most of the time people mean well. Even when they do things that I believe are wrong or foolish, they probably have good intentions. When I notice myself ascribing bad motives to people I try to stop myself.

I also try to keep an awareness of my own faults and sins. Sometimes it helps to cope with other people doing things wrong when I remind myself that I do too.

I think that praying the Rosary could help too. We need to do things that help us to focus on God.

 

[ProVobis]

The values that the nuns taught my husband & myself are absent in today’s schools…both Catholic &, of course, secular. We were taught the importance of **self-**discipline, the absolute necessity of repecting others & ourselves. We were taught that anything less than our best…just wasn’t acceptable. (The phrase “You’ll need to do that over, dear” still resonates in my mind.It didn’t take long for me to learn to do it right the first time.) These wonderful women considered it their DUTY to God to educate Catholic leaders who could hold their own in a secular world…both morally & intellectually.

You got to love those nuns. They certainly kept the parishes they served running smoothly.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not necessary. We’re not talking major documents, we’re talking simple prayers. When you “learned” the Our Father in its cadences and syllables, did you understand it the same way you do today? Of course not. I memorized the Latin Credo when I was still in grade school, though I took no Latin classes till I was in high school. The understanding become automatic and fluourished because I was exposed to it all the time. Maybe it’s the way they teach it these days, but I don’t see much better understanding of the Mass today than 50 years ago. I just don’t agree with the “since it’s in my language, I can now understand it” stuff anymore than if I were to tell you π was approximately 3.141593 and now you completely understand exactly what π was. You may THINK you understand it but you wouldn’t have a clue as to what it represents.

People will still desire to learn what the prayer means. Even saying the correct latin word or phrase but have a false understanding of the word or phrase will harm our faith and the intention of our prayer.

Funny, I understood the language from when I was young. I learned the Our Father in Filipino as it was sung in Filipino even in an English Mass back in the day because there was a popular melody used in the Philippines back then. I’ve always wondered why we can only be forgiven in our living rooms and not anywhere else. “Sala” in Tagalog can be translated to either living room or offence/sin, depends on how the accent on the last A is. And since its a song, it eliminated the proper accent on the A, thus my confusion. I was about 6 years old when I began to think about it, I guess it was just weird to me why we ask for forgiveness only in our living rooms. But I understood it then, somewhat, and figured it out later on.

Thing is, even if we don’t question at the beginning, we will want to find out later on. And where and how we find out. The danger is if we receive the information from an unreliable source, then we ourselves now are lead to believe something that is false.

 

[Luvadoxi]

True, Floresco–thank you for the helpful reminders.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well I completely disagree with everything you just said. First and foremost - embracing immorality has everything to do with falling away from the Faith. When was the last time you heard a Hellfire and Brimstone Sermon from a OF Pulpit? The simple fact is - discipline is practised and learned and morality must be taught and reinforced from the Pulpit. I see a total lack of discipline in the OF which is one of the reasons I avoid it. To me it has everything to do with why people fall away. If a person isnt disciplined in religion then they are not disciplined in life IMO. Pretty soon , its all about what THEY believe or what THEY want and less about the gravity of sin and what GOD wants. People who believe in divorce and remarriage, artificial contraception, abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem cell research, Women Priests and all the other things these people demand are not doing so to please Almighty GOD - they are doing what they do to please themselves. If we allow them to show that same example to our Youth growing up right now and we consent to those same Sins we are no better as Catholics.

This isnt a question of merely defying what the Church teaches - its a matter of defying GOD’S Commandments. And IMO - those who say they are Catholic and continue to claim to be Catholic all the while giving bad example to Catholic youth need to be culled from the Church and Church discipline restored. It does start with the Mass and the Disciplines. And from the pulpit. Put another way - if I were to say to you that people who believe in divorce and remarriage, artificial contraception, abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem cell research, etc. and refuse to repent or to follow what GOD has ordained in morality are doomed to burn in Hell for Eternity - would you be shocked? Maybe thats exactly what they do need to hear from a Priest. To be shocked back into reality. To understand that the wages of Sin is Death and that GOD will not be mocked.

Just because our society is currently embracing all these detestable sins - you and i as Catholics have to look long term. These little five year old Catholics will be 20 in 15 short years. How do you want them raised? With little or no discipline? Or with a Catholic appreciation of GOD’s morality. When I see the OF I see “all the things we dont have to do anymore” We can get away with “doing the minimum” And doing the minimum means what? Eventually a lack of discipline.

Sorry , But I simply dont but the argument that Immorality has won. If it is winning , we only have ourselves to blame.

Pax

I believe you are not looking at the bigger picture. Mass media is against morality right now. It doesn’t matter what is said at sermon, for the 10-20 minutes a priest gives his sermon, there’s hours of TV programming thats telling us that premarital sex is okay, same-sex relationships are okay, divorce and remarriage is okay, etc. No matter what is said and taught at church has now a competing message from popular media. And this was non-existent in the years prior to Vatican II.

One of the most popular TV shows of the 90s is Friends. On that show you have every kind of immorality. Ross has been divorced and remarried several times, his first wife is a lesbian whom they even attended her same-sex “wedding”. Everyone of them is promiscous, oftentimes complaining if they go for weeks or months without sex, as if its something essential to their survival. Phoebe is new age, believes in karma, reincarnation and seance. Monica and Chandler moved in together long before they got married. Rachel became pregnant by Ross outside of marriage. And Joey of course is the epitome or promiscouity.

That show may seem like harmless comedy, but because of its popularity many people pick up the values of some of the characters. Because it was shown as okay, those who with already shakey morals will not bend towards the easy path of immorality, because its so popular.

You see, people not into the faith will see the EF and see a hard to grasp and complex faith. It far easier to just do what those in popular media does. The OF came about because the Church has to meet people at their level. As I said at a previous post, that is why Jesus chose mostly fishermen, because fishermen know how to make the catch. Unlike hunters who would sometimes lay and wait their target, fishermen has to drop their nets and if the catch is not good enough, they know how to move their boats to where they can catch more. The OF came about because of the need to catch more souls. Thats what I believe.

 

[CradleCath]

I’d like to go to an EF but it’s almost 2 hours away from me. I can’t request one because our pastor is hostile to it. We’re in a real rah, rah Vatican II parish and everyone’s perfectly happy there. But compared to what I experienced yesterday, I’m now actually grateful to my parish–that’s how bad it is.
(snipped for brevity)
So this thread caught my eye. I’m losing my charity, and I don’t know what to do . For 7 years I’ve really tried, but I feel like I’ve got Stockholm syndrome and I don’t even know who I am anymore.

I know how you feel & I’d imagine there are others who can relate. Abuse has been the norm in my diocese for so many years, the younger people don’t even realize that there is anything wrong. We would have moved to St. Louis years ago if our families weren’t located here. Thanks to God & Pope Benedict, we finally have a Holy & Traditional Bishop & my city has one TLM. every Sunday.

Maybe this will help.ecclesiadei.org/
"Now the Catholic faithful should write a short letter to their pastor or nearby sympathetic priest to request the Traditional Latin Mass on Sundays and weekdays, according to the provisions of Summorum Pontificum.
Many priests have quietly studied to learn the Traditional Mass. Dioceses are calling upon experienced clergy to train other priests. The Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter and the Institute of Christ the King are involved in training programs. An extensive tutorial has been prepared by the Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius.

 

[rayne89]

In response to Rayne, post #26:
I’m just slowing reading through this thread; in the past two months on vacation I’ve been to 3 OF masses–two beautiful and orthodox like yours, and one this past Sunday that was just a parody of liturgical abuse. It’s left me very depressed. The problem, Rayne, is that you are just one priest away from going back to the horror I experienced yesterday. I’ve become convinced, as of yesterday, that the ordinary form, while valid…is inherently irreformable by its very nature.

I went to a different parish this weekend because we were spending the weekend at my parents. It wasn’t horror -no they had no kneelers and the tabernacle in a (quite pretty) chapel off to the side. Yes we received in the hand. I don’t try to receive on the tongue at most parishes because the EMHC’s aren’t used it and I had one nearly drop it trying to give it me. I’d rather receive in the hand than have the Eucharist end up on the floor. The music at this parish had more of the less tradition hymn’s that I grew up with in the 70’s & 80’s but nothing heterodox. There was a cantor and a pianist -no bongos. Not even a guitar.
I do not believe the there is no hope for the OF being done without abuses. It’s not the Mass that needs reform -its proper education of the laity. And I believe it will happen. Many of the newer priests coming through seminary are much more traditional -it will take time but I have faith that we will slowly see the abuses fade. It won’t be as fast as we like to see it -but I’ve realized nothing ever is.

Our parish has a huge amount of vocations so I have hope that we are not one priest away from losing the abuse free & very traditional OF Mass. We actually have two priests at our parish -plus retired priests that assist as well. Even at this less traditional parish this weekend there was beauty in the Mass. We stopped in at the chapel where the tabernacle is after Mass and prayed. It had such beautiful natural lighting as did the rest of the church. With some kneelers it would be much better -but I believe some day it will have them.

Do not lose hope. :console:

 

[Frosty]

I believe you are not looking at the bigger picture. Mass media is against morality right now. It doesn’t matter what is said at sermon, for the 10-20 minutes a priest gives his sermon, there’s hours of TV programming thats telling us that premarital sex is okay, same-sex relationships are okay, divorce and remarriage is okay, etc. No matter what is said and taught at church has now a competing message from popular media. And this was non-existent in the years prior to Vatican II.

You see, people not into the faith will see the EF and see a hard to grasp and complex faith. It far easier to just do what those in popular media does. The OF came about because the Church has to meet people at their level. As I said at a previous post, that is why Jesus chose mostly fishermen, because fishermen know how to make the catch. Unlike hunters who would sometimes lay and wait their target, fishermen has to drop their nets and if the catch is not good enough, they know how to move their boats to where they can catch more. The OF came about because of the need to catch more souls. Thats what I believe.

I agree with what you said above. The drastic upheaval that the world has seen in the past fifty years is absolutely unprecedented in history. For the last several weeks our pastor has been speaking about faith and obedience to the will of God. Why the Church often takes such a long time to implement reform even though we are in a rush for it to change things to our own liking. It is because the Church listens carefully and tries to discern the will of God. Sometimes over its history the Church has been slow to act, perhaps, some say, to its detriment, Other times she has reacted more quickly [if one thinks that decades is more quickly]. He said that the Church tries to live in God’s time and just like Abraham, because she has faith, is willing to trust that God knows what He is asking of her. Just as when the priest ascends to the altar he enters the space from the left and exits from the right hand side, in a counter-clockwise direction. That is because when he ascends to the altar he is entering into God’s time {which is counter to our time] and on leaving the altar is coming back into time as we know it. It was a very powerful homily yesterday and I’ve been thinking about it for the past day.
Anyways, here are some of my thoughts. If we stop and think about God’s time being different from ours and the fact that the Church tries to discern the times of God perhaps some of our negative thinking about what has transpired in the Church in the last fifty years just might make more sense. For the people who question why liturgical reform took place at Vatican ll. you ought to know that renewal and reform of the liturgy was a subject that didn’t just pop up in the 20th century. It had its roots back in the nineteenth century and was actually one of the subjects to be discussed at Vatican l. We know that this didn’t happen because war caused the council to be cut short. However the reform of the liturgy was not far from the minds of most of the suceeding popes and several of them tried in various ways to make the Mass more accessible and meaningful to the laity. These efforts met with varying degrees of success and in some cases were virtually ignored. Pope Pius ll.even toyed with the idea of calling an ecumenical council but for various reasons did not do so. By the end of the 1950’s, as even staunch conservatives admit, the Church had become comlacent, overly legalistic and its ceremonies often cheerless and perfunctory. But, all of a sudden just when the world was about to experience a drastic upheaval, John XXlll called Vatican ll, and the concerns regarding the liturgy were finally addressed by the entire Magisterium of the Church.
Why was it that such an overwhelming majority of the episcopy from all corners of the globe were able to come together at that particular time and place to reach the consensus on the liturgy and other matters that they did? Could it simply be that the Church, which is His Church not ours, was acting in God’s time and the Church had discerned that it was
His will? As I said, these are just my thoughts but it makes sense to me.

 

[ProVobis]

I believe you are not looking at the bigger picture. Mass media is against morality right now. It doesn’t matter what is said at sermon, for the 10-20 minutes a priest gives his sermon, there’s hours of TV programming thats telling us that premarital sex is okay, same-sex relationships are okay, divorce and remarriage is okay, etc. No matter what is said and taught at church has now a competing message from popular media. And this was non-existent in the years prior to Vatican II.

I’ll agree with you on that. Where the Church had been looked on as the moral leader of the world, suddenly it was all lost. Catholics had prided themselves and were respected (among other things) with/by the Friday meat abstinence, for example. Businesses and restaurants built themselves around that. With the relaxation of that rule, things seemed to go downhill as far as that discipline and where moral leadership was concerned. Catholics no longer abided by Church rules, ABC being the most prominent. The mass media had a field day with that one.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

It is possible for a Sacrament to be valid and still give scandal…for instance, if you go to confession with a validly ordained priest and you confess that you masturbated on one occasion and you meet all the conditions…i.e. contrite heart, firm purpose of amendment, etc and the priest absolves you with the proper formula, then your sins are forgiven correct? Valid Sacrament? You bet it is!!! That is without question…however, while during your confession, let’s say the priest gives you advice and tells you not to worry, that masturbating is normal and you should do it freely and without fear of eternal damnation…well that is a scandal. He has just scandalized you by subjecting you to his opinion which is not a teaching of The Church and could jeopardize your soul if you listen to him…yet, it does not invalidate The Sacrament. This is the same as with The Novus Ordo Mass…valid Sacrament, however the inventions that occur widespread during it are an occasion of sin and scandal. Women on the altar, EMHC’s, girl altar servers, lay “ministers”, confession by appointment only, glass chalices, stripping of the Altars, removal of Gregorian Chant, Communion in the Hand, etc, etc…need I say more?

May I please ask what you mean by “occasion of scandal?” It’s hard for me to imagine the celebration of the Lord’s Supper as scandalous in any way.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

 

[Robert_Burns]

It is possible for a Sacrament to be valid and still give scandal…for instance, if you go to confession with a validly ordained priest and you confess that you masturbated on one occasion and you meet all the conditions…i.e. contrite heart, firm purpose of amendment, etc and the priest absolves you with the proper formula, then your sins are forgiven correct? Valid Sacrament? You bet it is!!! That is without question…however, while during your confession, let’s say the priest gives you advice and tells you not to worry, that masturbating is normal and you should do it freely and without fear of eternal damnation…well that is a scandal. He has just scandalized you by subjecting you to his opinion which is not a teaching of The Church and could jeopardize your soul if you listen to him…yet, it does not invalidate The Sacrament. This is the same as with The Novus Ordo Mass…valid Sacrament, however the inventions that occur widespread during it are an occasion of sin and scandal. Women on the altar, EMHC’s, girl altar servers, lay “ministers”, confession by appointment only, glass chalices, stripping of the Altars, removal of Gregorian Chant, Communion in the Hand, etc, etc…need I say more?

That is a good point. But as Catholics we are also taught to avoid occasions of Sin. IE: a person who has had a problem with alcohol shouldnt frequent Bars. Not because going to a Bar is a Sin - but the proximity of Alcohol and the people there enjoying it exponentially increase the temptation which makes it far more difficult for the person to avoid falling into sin again. Therefore - when I go to confession and confess my Sins - if a Priest were to give me advise contrary to the Teachings of the Church , I would have to ask myself if going to that Church is now an Occasion of Sin. Wopuld I want my teenage son going to confession there with that Priest since as a Father I am likewise responsible for his Catholic Upbringing? There is much more to it than simply recieving the Sacraments IMO

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Exactly, and since the OF is prone to abuse and abuse is rampant in it worldwide…I have literally seen abuses and occasions of scandal in 99% of the OF Masses I have attended in my life…therefore, deductive reasoning tells me I should avoid it (unless I can not find a TLM on any particular Sunday) and attend only the TLM, even if that means I must go to an SSPX Mass, because I should not go somewhere where I am going to be scandalized…and Rome makes it very clear, that I have the right to the TLM even if that TLM happens to be at an SSPX Chapel, as long as I don’t attend for the sole purpose of supporting schism…

That is a good point. But as Catholics we are also taught to avoid occasions of Sin. IE: a person who has had a problem with alcohol shouldnt frequent Bars. Not because going to a Bar is a Sin - but the proximity of Alcohol and the people there enjoying it exponentially increase the temptation which makes it far more difficult for the person to avoid falling into sin again. Therefore - when I go to confession and confess my Sins - if a Priest were to give me advise contrary to the Teachings of the Church , I would have to ask myself if going to that Church is now an Occasion of Sin. Wopuld I want my teenage son going to confession there with that Priest since as a Father I am likewise responsible for his Catholic Upbringing? There is much more to it than simply recieving the Sacraments IMO

 

[Robert_Burns]

I believe you are not looking at the bigger picture. Mass media is against morality right now. It doesn’t matter what is said at sermon, for the 10-20 minutes a priest gives his sermon, there’s hours of TV programming thats telling us that premarital sex is okay, same-sex relationships are okay, divorce and remarriage is okay, etc. No matter what is said and taught at church has now a competing message from popular media. And this was non-existent in the years prior to Vatican II.

One of the most popular TV shows of the 90s is Friends. On that show you have every kind of immorality. Ross has been divorced and remarried several times, his first wife is a lesbian whom they even attended her same-sex “wedding”. Everyone of them is promiscous, oftentimes complaining if they go for weeks or months without sex, as if its something essential to their survival. Phoebe is new age, believes in karma, reincarnation and seance. Monica and Chandler moved in together long before they got married. Rachel became pregnant by Ross outside of marriage. And Joey of course is the epitome or promiscouity.

That show may seem like harmless comedy, but because of its popularity many people pick up the values of some of the characters. Because it was shown as okay, those who with already shakey morals will not bend towards the easy path of immorality, because its so popular.

You see, people not into the faith will see the EF and see a hard to grasp and complex faith. It far easier to just do what those in popular media does. The OF came about because the Church has to meet people at their level. As I said at a previous post, that is why Jesus chose mostly fishermen, because fishermen know how to make the catch. Unlike hunters who would sometimes lay and wait their target, fishermen has to drop their nets and if the catch is not good enough, they know how to move their boats to where they can catch more. The OF came about because of the need to catch more souls. Thats what I believe.

Robert: As a Catholic Parent I dont let my children watch shows such as “Friends.” Having not watched it myself , I’ll take your word for what has gone on there. If you are a Catholic parent and you let your children watch whatever they want or listen to whatever music they want or dress anyway they want just because “everyone else is doing it” then when they fall (and they will) you have only yourself to blame. The Media is against Catholic morality. And so if you know it is against Catholic morality why would you let it in your home? Its almost like saying its ok to let my children play with matches so long as they understand that its a bad idea to and not a sin so long as they do not set any serious fires. They will still be playing with matches. No parent would allow that - but we let them watch immoral shows? Catholic morality starts with one Catholic at a time. In Omaha we have a Catholic Radio Station that reviews television shows and movies. I listen to that station every single day. Even today in this immoral cesspool we still have choices. At our house we watch History and Animal shows Sports and the like. My Kids like to play Baseball and go Fishing and Camping and they all like to read - we always try to keep them occupied so they dont have times to waste in front of a TV. The fact that you know everything about what is going on in that “Friends” show tells me you watch it and if you watch it and your children see you watch it what kind of example are you setting for them? I am not trying to be critical - but you can see the point. Today, a lot of Catholic parents send their kids off to Public Schools. Then they wonder why they lose their Faith. And we can all come up with every excuse in the book and blame it all on society - But EWTN is on the TV isnt it? We all have choices. To me - it almost seems like you have run up the White Flag and surrendered to it.

We need Catholics to get on board and stand up for their FAITH. Not allow these immoral shows in their homes. Demand that their Priests start preaching the Gravity of Sin from the Pulpit. Its not too late and the battle isnt lost. But IMO - all Catholics have to join in the fight against these things. Instead of blaming the EF - and everything it stands for.

The Wages of Sin is still death and “Friends” as you describe it is anything but a “Harmless Comedy”. And I shouldnt have to be the one telling you that.

Pax

 

[Robert_Burns]

Exactly, and since the OF is prone to abuse and abuse is rampant in it worldwide…I have literally seen abuses and occasions of scandal in 99% of the OF Masses I have attended in my life…therefore, deductive reasoning tells me I should avoid it (unless I can not find a TLM on any particular Sunday) and attend only the TLM, even if that means I must go to an SSPX Mass, because I should not go somewhere where I am going to be scandalized…and Rome makes it very clear, that I have the right to the TLM even if that TLM happens to be at an SSPX Chapel, as long as I don’t attend for the sole purpose of supporting schism…

Robert: I respect your right to do so for the reasons you just stated.

 

[CradleCath]

I’ll agree with you on that. Where the Church had been looked on as the moral leader of the world, suddenly it was all lost. Catholics had prided themselves and were respected (among other things) with/by the Friday meat abstinence, for example. Businesses and restaurants built themselves around that. With the relaxation of that rule, things seemed to go downhill as far as that discipline and where moral leadership was concerned. Catholics no longer abided by Church rules, ABC being the most prominent. The mass media had a field day with that one.

You brought back memories. When I was in my 20’s, my husband & I went to Colorado to visit my Mother’s favorite aunt. My great aunt. She had been a staunch Protestant all of her life, yet she sent her son-in-law into the mountains to catch some trout. We arrived on Fri. & she made special effort to provide us with a meatless meal.

 

[wisdomseeker]

In response to Rayne, post #26:
I’m just slowing reading through this thread; in the past two months on vacation I’ve been to 3 OF masses–two beautiful and orthodox like yours, and one this past Sunday that was just a parody of liturgical abuse. It’s left me very depressed. The problem, Rayne, is that you are just one priest away from going back to the horror I experienced yesterday. I’ve become convinced, as of yesterday, that the ordinary form, while valid…is inherently irreformable by its very nature. If it depends on how devout we sinful human beings are, it can’t be relied upon. Since my conversion 7 years ago (and Rachel, I can relate to how you feel–I knew nothing of this civil war within the church), I’ve kept a low profile but have been treated terribly…I guess I thought being in the true Church meant I’d actually find true Christians therein. (Yeah, yeah,…we’re all sinners, etc blah blah blah…folks please don’t go there–I know, but no more excuses). I’d like to go to an EF but it’s almost 2 hours away from me. I can’t request one because our pastor is hostile to it. We’re in a real rah, rah Vatican II parish and everyone’s perfectly happy there. But compared to what I experienced yesterday, I’m now actually grateful to my parish–that’s how bad it is.

So this thread caught my eye. I’m losing my charity, and I don’t know what to do . For 7 years I’ve really tried, but I feel like I’ve got Stockholm syndrome and I don’t even know who I am anymore.

do not loose courage my friend. stay in the Boat(bark of Peter). remember the days of the Apostles when they thought that Jesus had died and they fell terribly alone. that is how we feel today. like we are all alone and God has turned away from us. there were many times in which the Israelites also fell alone in the desert. we are going thru the same as our ancesters. but our Lord is mercyfull and He will look upon us again and will bring us back to the Holy Church again. i know that because of so much sin in the Church, we are suffering, but our Lord will not forget us forever.

 

[malphono]

We see a lot of emotional tension here concerning disagreements over the forms of Mass and associated liturgical practices. I was seeing this same tension in my marriage. I prefer the EF and think its prayers are better expressions of Catholic theology. My spouse prefers the OF and does not understand my concerns about theology. The same dynamics that we see in so many threads - misunderstanding, suspicion, hostility - were eating away at my relationship with the person I love most in the world.

We were hurting and I knew this was wrong so I went to a priest for counselling. He gave me some advice that has been helping. So I am wondering if a similar change could take place in our discussions here. What if we recognized that the people we are fighting with are people we are supposed to love? What if we took being brothers and sisters in Christ as an important relationship?

I think that I have written things here that have contributed to bad feelings. And I have felt angry and impatient with others. I am sorry and I want to do better. I want to write what is true in a way that is fitting for people I love.

I had to quote the OP in full here since, while the post have been generally civil, it appears to me that in the past few days this thread has gone very wide of the mark.

 

[Luvadoxi]

Right–Floresco–my apologies for not being sensitive about your original post and concerns, and posting in this thread rather than in another more appropriate one.

To all, wisdomseeker, floresco, and others…thank you for the encouraging remarks. Charity in all…that’s the ticket. That’s the hard part!

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ll agree with you on that. Where the Church had been looked on as the moral leader of the world, suddenly it was all lost. Catholics had prided themselves and were respected (among other things) with/by the Friday meat abstinence, for example. Businesses and restaurants built themselves around that. With the relaxation of that rule, things seemed to go downhill as far as that discipline and where moral leadership was concerned. Catholics no longer abided by Church rules, ABC being the most prominent. The mass media had a field day with that one.

This is what I miss about living in a country that is 80% Catholic. During Lent, most restaurants and fast food chains will go out of their way to come up with Lenten specials. Even McDonald’s will promote their Fillet O’Fish more agressively during Lent. In the 80s you go out from Holy Thursday to Holy Saturday, the whole country is shut down. Now, you can’t tell the difference, all the malls are open and all the stores are open as well.