dealing with EF/OF tension

[Robert_Burns]

This is what I miss about living in a country that is 80% Catholic. During Lent, most restaurants and fast food chains will go out of their way to come up with Lenten specials. Even McDonald’s will promote their Fillet O’Fish more agressively during Lent. In the 80s you go out from Holy Thursday to Holy Saturday, the whole country is shut down. Now, you can’t tell the difference, all the malls are open and all the stores are open as well.

I live close to Omaha Nebraska which has a high Catholic presense and many restaurants run Lenten Specials. I think sometimes we forget that we Catholics still have high numbers. We can demand that people respect our Holy Religion. I remamber a couple of Years ago - we also had the Numerous complaints to Target regarding the “Holiday Tree” Sure they wanted to Profit off Christmas - but theuy didnt want to call the Christmas tree by its proper name. So - Catholics boycotted their stores during the Christmas rush. They certainly changed their tune in a hurry - running a full page ad apologizing and every ad since in the Omaha area has advertised Christmas trees.

We can be heard. We dont have to take it. Trust me - the business here who run the Lenten Specials see a great increase in business during Lent. If they want the guy down the Street to get their customers - then ignore us. I go to those same businesses after Lent too - because they are Catholic friendly. We dont have to take it. And we shouldnt.

Pax

 

[floresco]

Right–Floresco–my apologies for not being sensitive about your original post and concerns, and posting in this thread rather than in another more appropriate one.

No apologies are needed. I thought your post was entirely appropriate. You were drawing our attention to the importance of charity which is probably the key to the whole thing.

Many of the posts in this thread have been about the issues in which trads and non-trads tend to disagree. While these have served to illustrate the situation, I wanted to focus on how we treat each other in the face of our disagreements. I think some principles have come out during the discussion. The thread has gotten long enough that I doubt that I can remember all the points that have been raised. These are what I can recall.

Recognize each other as brothers and sisters, members of the same Church.
Try to understand the perspective of the other and be concerned for his/her good.
Avoid blaming and accusing the other. Instead, cultivate an awareness of one’s own faults.
Use neutral language rather than emotionally-loaded terms.
Pray for each other. Pray with each other.
Acknowledge the authority of the Church.
Make clear distinctions between objective and subjective.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I live close to Omaha Nebraska which has a high Catholic presense and many restaurants run Lenten Specials. I think sometimes we forget that we Catholics still have high numbers. We can demand that people respect our Holy Religion. I remamber a couple of Years ago - we also had the Numerous complaints to Target regarding the “Holiday Tree” Sure they wanted to Profit off Christmas - but theuy didnt want to call the Christmas tree by its proper name. So - Catholics boycotted their stores during the Christmas rush. They certainly changed their tune in a hurry - running a full page ad apologizing and every ad since in the Omaha area has advertised Christmas trees.

We can be heard. We dont have to take it. Trust me - the business here who run the Lenten Specials see a great increase in business during Lent. If they want the guy down the Street to get their customers - then ignore us. I go to those same businesses after Lent too - because they are Catholic friendly. We dont have to take it. And we shouldnt.

Pax

Good for you. I live in a city/metropolis where just a few years ago less than 50% of the population claim to be Christian. And this is not just Cathoic, this is any sect or denomination Christian. Believers in Jesus Christ is a minority here, whether it be Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc. Most people don’t even know why we don’t go to work on Good Friday but are just thankful for the first long weekend of the year.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If that were true, everyone would believe in the Real Presence and the Holy Sacrifice. They may recognize the words maybe but that’s about it. As far as readings go, most can’t remember the readings five minutes after they’re given, unfortunately. Personally, I found one of the readings really difficult to follow one day last week. Too many proper names. I definitely needed a missal.

It is true for those who pay attention and has little to do with everyone believing in the Real Presence. Every single Mass has transubstantiation and the readings that have to do with the Last Supper. But it can be a hard concept to understand and may require more education. Mass is not the only activity that goes on in a well-functioning parish. There are also retreats and classes which are there to help the faithful comprehend what they have problems understanding. It’s not as easy as the priest standing up there at the altar and telling the congregation that Jesus is actually present in what was bread and wine.

I don’t know about your church but we have missals (in English) in every pew, with every reading.

I’m not that intelligent but I do pay attention to the readings and the rest of the Mass and if I have questions I ask someone who I feel will know the answer. I never heard of the term “Real Presence” until about a year ago. We just never used it in the parish I grew up in and then I left the Church for quite awhile. But even without knowing the term I understand what is going on.

My niece teaches a Confirmation class. When I was Confirmed I had no idea what was going on. I wore a robe and picked a name and a bishop slapped me gently across the face and we said some prayers. My education into Confirmation probably lasted a few months. Now it’s years and if it weren’t so “kissy-feely/warm and fuzzy inside” they could use that time to actually teach what Confirmation means. My niece makes sure that her students do know.

It’s the same with Matrimony. My fiance and I went to a few classes, talked to the priest and that was about it. Now it takes a much longer time and if I had attended serious classes I never would have married a Presbyterian who had no understanding of Catholicism. I missed out on so much by not being married to a Catholic who understood his faith and I could kick myself for being so stupid. When I read about some of the relationships here on the forum I realize what I missed.

Just because the Mass is in English does not mean that things are not changing for the better. Since I’ve been back I’ve felt so much closer to Jesus after Communion and there are times after Mass when I beg Him to take me home right away. I never felt that way before. It can’t just be me. Something wonderful is going on in the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t know about your church but we have missals (in English) in every pew, with every reading.

It should be that way. Unfortunately some of them are limited. Especially in the weekday OF Masses I attend.

But wasn’t the message that we are supposed to be listening rather than reading?

 

[onmyknees]

I’m 72 years old and lived through the era of the traditional mass, which I attended daily in Catholic school from grade 1 through high school. It was required to go to mass, and once monthly all grades went to confession. Our religion classes consisted of memorizing the Baltimore Catechism, so one might assume that this extensive education of daily religion classes, unlike the scant weekly hour received in our present CCD classes, would produce solid Catholics.

Truthfully, knowledge is not the answer, for despite memorization which was thoroughly ingrained in my head, my heart never grasped the essence of the faith - devotion to Jesus Christ! I left the church as an adult for about ten years, since the liturgy and its silent latin mumbling never did enrich me. When I came back in 1965, the Church was just beginning to embrace the new liturgy.

The changes to the new mass did not take place overnight, but were implemented gradually with careful catechesis in all of our parishes. Except for the scant minority who espoused the “non serviam” disobedience due to an inability to accept these changes, the overwhelming majority of Catholics had no problem whatsoever. The parishes I attended were just as full as ever, without anybody leaving in rebellion.

Like it or not, by guidance of the Holy Spirit, it is the Ordinary Form of the universal Church. Unless the Lord Himself intervenes through the hierarchy, this mass will remain the Ordinary Form. It will not become a grass-roots supplantation by traditionalists or certain clerics, for they are not endowed with the charism of infallibility guiding the Church.

The TLM was granted special indult, to keep the small minority of dissidents from leaving the church. The Pope shepherded them wisely by permitting the old rite to be continued, rather than see them leave or embrace schism. Many years later (2007) Pope Benedict granted wider permission for celebration by Motu Proprio. I presume the readers are fully informed about this.

My prayer is to ask that readers view the scandalous postings on the internet that ravage the Novus Ordo with a discerning prayerful heart, and realize that there are people who love the new mass and are highly dedicated faithful Catholics that worship within this liturgy.

I also pray that Catholics will avoid seeking answers to their doubts from these infamous posts which only increase confusion, but go to the Church, as Christ asks us. The only way Satan can enter is through the mind. He generally provides elements truth, but out of context to make his deception appear true, and that is the problem with lending an eye or ear to the words he speaks through souls on the web that sincerely bought the lie.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is not the center of these postings, but rather, the extraneous trappings that attempt to pull one away from the Church, create many doubts and instill a horrible division pitting Catholics against one another, contrary to the unity Jesus desires.

Hi Sirach,

I left the Church in the 1970’s and since then many many more Catholics have left and continue to leave. I left because after V11 we were not taught any of the teachings of the Church. We just got the lovey, touchy, feely stuff. We would have to cut out pictures from magazines of people that were being kind and make posters out of them. We saw a priest running off with nun, nuns taking off their habits and dressing like our moms, folk music was in style and everyone I knew hated it. We thought mass was boring and we did not get anything out of it.

27yrs. later the I was given the grace to come back. I remembered when my dad had told me about the consecration and how the bread and wine were really and truly changed into the body and blood of Jesus. I remembered how I had loved the mass as a little girl before V11. The reverence of the priest and the people, the beautiful Latin chanting, the incense, and the bells. I used to wish that all my friends could come to my church and
experience the joy that I had there. The mass raised my heart and mind to God.

So, when I came back, I first joined the RCIA at the parish and realized that my parents had taught me more that I realized. The teacher said that it was okay to descent from the Church’s teaching, that Jesus did not really perform miracles (the loaves and fishes was a story about how people brought enough food to share with everyone), and she insinuated that praying the rosary was not anything worth while. I left that group and joined another and it was there that I learned all the true Catholic teaching. I then devoured all the good orthodox Catholic books I could find too.

I now love going to Adoration and praying to Jesus. I actually talk/pray to Him and His Mother on and off all day long. I still don’t like many parts of the N.O. mass today or the many abuses that happen at some of them. I cannot stand when there are no kneelers and you feel like a spectacle because you want to kneel and you are the only one. I am excited that Pope Benedict is going to make changes for the better. I think that the ef is becoming more popular among the young people today. They hunger for the Truth and they are still not getting it in many of the Catholic schools.

Sorry I had to delete some of your post because the post was too long. I did read your whole story.

 

[Luvadoxi]

I just wanted to say that the other day when I said I thought the ordinary form was irreformable, I was really reacting to a bad experience and acting out of my own personal feelings–I don’t want anyone to be discouraged. In fact, today I was just reading a link from here somewhere from the latin mass association in Ireland that the Tridentine mass was a response to all the different western rites during the time of the Reformation; and that unifying it under one Latin rite helped prevent possible misinterpretations creeping in with so many different rites. In other words, the Tridentine mass itself was a reform. So the fact that the ordinary form of the Mass has changed doesn’t necessarily mean a bad thing has happened. Yes, opening it up to variety, knowing how man is fallen, has the potential for problems as we are seeing, but taking the long view, the Holy Spirit must have sensed a need for reform at the time the form of the Mass changed. Anyway, I just need to trust that the Lord knows what he’s doing! The barque of Peter will turn around again…slowly…but it will turn.

 

[ProVobis]

In fact, today I was just reading a link from here somewhere from the latin mass association in Ireland that the Tridentine mass was a response to all the different western rites during the time of the Reformation; and that unifying it under one Latin rite helped prevent possible misinterpretations creeping in with so many different rites. In other words, the Tridentine mass itself was a reform.

The Council of Trent was a response to the Reformation. There were issues other than the liturgy itself but the canon of the Mass was not changed and neither was the Latin language, which goes back to the early centuries. But any way you cut it, I’d say the Latin Mass held up pretty well for the 400 years since Trent.

 

[MarkThompson]

The Council of Trent was a response to the Reformation. There were issues other than the liturgy itself but the canon of the Mass was not changed and neither was the Latin language, which goes back to the early centuries.

I’ll bet you saw pretty big changes if you hadn’t been using the Roman rite and your rite got abolished.

 

[Luvadoxi]

I think there were differences here and there in the different western rites. The article was implying, I think, that it wasn’t really a problem until the Reformation, where there might have been a danger of things creeping in that shouldn’t be there, heresy being such a seductive and subtle thing (my words).

It must have caused a lot of anguish then as it has now, but things eventually straightened out.

 

[Luvadoxi]

This is the link to the article; I thought it was really informative:

latinmassireland.org/thelatinmass/why_latin.html

 

[malphono]

I think there were differences here and there in the different western rites. The article was implying, I think, that it wasn’t really a problem until the Reformation, where there might have been a danger of things creeping in that shouldn’t be there, heresy being such a seductive and subtle thing (my words).

Yes, that’s just about it.

It must have caused a lot of anguish then as it has now, but things eventually straightened out.

What were suppressed were essentially “upstart” usages which really hadn’t been around all that long. Those Rites in continuous use for a minimum of 200 years were retained.

 

[Luvadoxi]

Good point…I hadn’t read that part carefully.

 

[ProVobis]

This is the link to the article; I thought it was really informative:

latinmassireland.org/thelatinmass/why_latin.html

I agree. It was on my favorite list.

 

[ProVobis]

Those Rites in continuous use for a minimum of 200 years were retained.

The local rites that it superseded were for example, the Gaulic and Irish (although these were only different in small ways), though the new Missal containing the new Tridentine Mass retained any other rites that had existed for at least 200 years. This allowed the presevation of the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites, which are still praticed in Milan and Toledo respectively, as well as the rites of the Dominicans, the Carthusians, and the Carmelites.

fact-index.com/t/tr/tridentine_mass.html

 

[LittleSoldier]

It should be that way. Unfortunately some of them are limited. Especially in the weekday OF Masses I attend.

But wasn’t the message that we are supposed to be listening rather than reading?

Some people can’t listen because they are deaf, because they have concentration problems, because they can’t even make it to Mass.

Please don’t stare at my clothes during Mass. We are here to attend to Christ the Lord, not my attire.

 

[ProVobis]

Some people can’t listen because they are deaf, because they have concentration problems, because they can’t even make it to Mass.

You’re right. I was being sarcastic.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It is possible for a Sacrament to be valid and still give scandal…for instance, if you go to confession with a validly ordained priest and you confess that you masturbated on one occasion and you meet all the conditions…i.e. contrite heart, firm purpose of amendment, etc and the priest absolves you with the proper formula, then your sins are forgiven correct? Valid Sacrament? You bet it is!!! That is without question…however, while during your confession, let’s say the priest gives you advice and tells you not to worry, that masturbating is normal and you should do it freely and without fear of eternal damnation…well that is a scandal. He has just scandalized you by subjecting you to his opinion which is not a teaching of The Church and could jeopardize your soul if you listen to him…yet, it does not invalidate The Sacrament. This is the same as with The Novus Ordo Mass…valid Sacrament, however the inventions that occur widespread during it are an occasion of sin and scandal. Women on the altar, EMHC’s, girl altar servers, lay “ministers”, confession by appointment only, glass chalices, stripping of the Altars, removal of Gregorian Chant, Communion in the Hand, etc, etc…need I say more?

Well, I guess you can’t say more, but yeah. Women on the altar? What is that supposed to mean? Do you mean they get up on top of the altar? What is an EMHC? Are we speaking of women dispensing Communion? If it weren’t for two women, my mother, when she was dying in a process that took several years, would not have received Communion at all. No man would come out to the house to give it to her. Girl altar servers - what is wrong with that? My niece is the only person in her parish that is always willing to serve. Should we not have servers? She’s not being blasphemous or making silly faces or dropping things. What is wrong with her serving? For Pete’s sake, Mary was at the foot of the cross!! Should she have left? About glass chalices: Did Jesus use a gold chalice or a chalice made of wood? Does it matter? Isn’t it the blood that is contained within the chalice that is important? Communion in the Hand? Oh my, well we can’t have that! Did Jesus place bread in each Apostle’s mouth directly or did they use their hands? I don’t think the Bible says. What difference does it make? What difference does it make? WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? The Host is consumed isn’t it? If I receive Communion in my hand does that mean that Jesus is not in my body when I put the host in my mouth? There is no difference!!!

I don’t think Gregorian Chant has been removed. It it a style of music and it is a discipline, not a dogma. It can be used for any hymn or prayer. I know because I love Gregorian Chant and the Our Father sung to it in English is beautiful. And I’ve sung it during Mass. A Mass in English except for the Lamb of God which we sing partially in Latin. I do miss Pange Lingua. I miss Tantum Ergo by itself, too. But you know what? I sing those hymns anyway and maybe one day they will be back. The hymns are a discipline. They have been changed and can be changed. I have a copy of the St. Gregory hymnal and I’m looking for the St. Basil hymnal (my originals were stolen from the choir loft).

It. is. the. Mass. That is what is so important. The Christ enters my body and soul and changes me just like the bread and wine were changed. I am changed into a holier person. I am blessed beyond belief. I can feel it and I cry. That is what the Mass is. There’s nothing wrong with people having preferences but these preferences have become more important than the Mass itself and that’s wrong. It shouldn’t be that way. Can’t you understand that? It’s the celebration of the Last Supper! Fighting over these little details takes precious time away from celebrating the Mass.

Whew! That’s all I have to say, at least for now.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You’re right. I was being sarcastic.

Oh. Ooops. Sorry.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Well, I guess you can’t say more, but yeah. Women on the altar? What is that supposed to mean? Do you mean they get up on top of the altar? What is an EMHC? Are we speaking of women dispensing Communion? If it weren’t for two women, my mother, when she was dying in a process that took several years, would not have received Communion at all. No man would come out to the house to give it to her.

Robert: Perhaps if deviations from Tradition didnt occur to such an extent as they have - we would have more vocations. Holy Communion should only be handled by the Clergy. Not Laity.

Girl altar servers - what is wrong with that? My niece is the only person in her parish that is always willing to serve. Should we not have servers? She’s not being blasphemous or making silly faces or dropping things. What is wrong with her serving?

Robert: Altar Boys havce been used historically as a precursor to Male religious vocations
to the minor orders. Since women cannot become Priests - there is no reason to groom them for Holy Orders.

For Pete’s sake, Mary was at the foot of the cross!! Should she have left?

Robert " Yes she was at the foot of the Cross but she wasnt in the upper chambers at the last Supper was she.

About glass chalices: Did Jesus use a gold chalice or a chalice made of wood? Does it matter? Isn’t it the blood that is contained within the chalice that is important?

Robert: It matters or the Church wouldnt have required precious metal for thousands of years.

Communion in the Hand? Oh my, well we can’t have that! Did Jesus place bread in each Apostle’s mouth directly or did they use their hands?

Robert: The Apostles werent Laity. They were all Priests.

I don’t think the Bible says. What difference does it make? What difference does it make? WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?

Robert: Your hands arent consecrated as occurs in Ordination comes to mind…

The Host is consumed isn’t it? If I receive Communion in my hand does that mean that Jesus is not in my body when I put the host in my mouth? There is no difference!!!

Robert: The “Host” is GOD. Which is more reverent knowing that the Host is GOD?
I beg to differ - there is a huge difference in reverence for the Holiness of GOD Our Savior.

I don’t think Gregorian Chant has been removed. It it a style of music and it is a discipline, not a dogma. It can be used for any hymn or prayer. I know because I love Gregorian Chant and the Our Father sung to it in English is beautiful. And I’ve sung it during Mass.

Robert: Along with ringing in the sheves and amazing grace and kumbaya.

A Mass in English except for the Lamb of God which we sing partially in Latin. I do miss Pange Lingua. I miss Tantum Ergo by itself, too. But you know what? I sing those hymns anyway and maybe one day they will be back.

Robert or you could go to First Friday Benediction in the EF.

The hymns are a discipline. They have been changed and can be changed. I have a copy of the St. Gregory hymnal and I’m looking for the St. Basil hymnal (my originals were stolen from the choir loft).

Robert: But not by Laity.

It. is. the. Mass. That is what is so important. The Christ enters my body and soul and changes me just like the bread and wine were changed. I am changed into a holier person. I am blessed beyond belief. I can feel it and I cry. That is what the Mass is. There’s nothing wrong with people having preferences but these preferences have become more important than the Mass itself and that’s wrong. It shouldn’t be that way. Can’t you understand that? It’s the celebration of the Last Supper! Fighting over these little details takes precious time away from celebrating the Mass.

Robert: The EF Mass in 1960 is the same as today. All the things you say you have in the OF we already had prior to its existance. Since we already have all these things and have no need to change to begin with - then my question to you is obvious - why change to begin with? Now several people who attend the OF want us to CHANGE BACK?

Does that make sense?

Whew! That’s all I have to say, at least for now.

Robert Me too…