Dealing with family who doesn't care for their kids

[Regina_Love]

Please talk to Social Services, the amount of help they need, as well as on going supervision is beyond what most people are able to do. Also lazy or uneducated parents often do NOT appreciate a family members trying to get them to change, and tell em to get lost! They can’t do that with Social Services most of the time.

I was a Foster Parent for 5 years. While my kids came into Foster care generally for abuse, they were mainly concerned about food! The first thing I did was open my cabinets, and show them all our food. Many gasped! Then I gave them some food items they could keep with them, and eat any time they wanted! They immediately relaxed, and smiled. They knew they were in a good place

Things like lice removal is very detailed, and they will need help. Sometimes SS will send a nurse to assist. Boys can have their heads shaved, so they don’t get reinfected. Every head in the house has to be treated, and eggs removed. Every piece of bedding, clothing needs to be washed on the highest heat setting. All stuffed animals should be removed and treated or put outside to freeze. All furniture, and flooring treated. This all has to happen simultaneously on the same day! Or they will reinfect. It takes me 5-6 hours to accomplish. Also some of this will need to be repeated when the eggs hatch out.

No, you don’t have to take in all the kids if they should need foster care. Don’t let anyone guilt you into it unless you truely feel led by God. The people caring for them should be up for the task, and happy to meet their daily needs, which may include frequent trips to Doctors, counselors, therapists, and home visits. In the unlikely event they enter Foster Care you can also request visits with the children. Social Workers love to have family visits.

Often my children would ask me. “Why didn’t anyone help me, or call Social Services sooner?” When a child is hungry every day is long & hard. They may fall behind developmentaly in both brain, and body growth. Please call while they are young enough to catch up! This is a good thing to do for those you love! Please be the one to show courageous love for these children. They need you to call.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Also remember that after calling CPS so many times and their efforts are unproductive to produce change in the situation the children could be taken from the home and be put in foster care; so I hope someone in the family is ready to care for the children should it come to that extreme.

This. Please do call CPS, but also consider prayerfully with your husband if you can take one (your godchild?), a few, or all of the children. Perhaps other family members can take the other children. At least until the parents get the intervention and help they need to learn how to properly manage their money and their home life so that it is safe for their children.

In the meantime, every time you see them just change the children’s diapers at least! Even if it means buying the right sizes and keeping them in your house/car so that you have them to use.

I will be praying for you.

 

[EasterJoy]

Generally speaking, CPS is extremely overworked and underfunded, and what little they can do is rarely enough.

OP, does this family go to church? Is there a Catholic church nearby? They need help. The children need help and I am reluctant to recommend any government agency, but I would try to involve their neighbors, friends, community and church community first.

I would also not recommend that you call CPS without your husband knowing and giving you the go-ahead. What he needs to do is call a family conference/intervention about his brother and sister-in-law. There needs to be an agreement as to who would take the children if they were removed from their parents, and what kind of help the parents should be offered. At least a family brainstorming session about how to help them more effectively.

It is a bad time in this nation and many children are being neglected. We must all step up and try to help those we know.

Yes, but…CPS doesn’t want people to avoid calling them about children who are being neglected because CPS is overworked. Rather, CPS doesn’t want the public to expect that they can work magic because someone made a phone call. If the extended family lets CPS know that they’re willing to step in and do the heavy lifting if the parents in the difficulty are willing to see their situation and accept the help, that is great, but sometimes CPS can get the ball rolling where the family could not, as in this case.

Still, your point about having the extended family on the same page is well-considered. Without that, there could be a lot of avoidable difficulties that the children could have been spared. The topic, however, ought to be presented not as “what are we going to do if CPS is called” but rather “what are we going to do when CPS is called”. It is that bad. The family has to realize that they cannot be the only ones who notice this situation. IOW: They *don’t * have the power to keep CPS out of this. They do have the power to be ready to respond effectively when the authorities are called about this neglect happening in their own family, and perhaps to decide that the time to get that ball rolling is now.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Please talk to Social Services, the amount of help they need, as well as on going supervision is beyond what most people are able to do. Also lazy or uneducated parents often do NOT appreciate a family members trying to get them to change, and tell em to get lost! They can’t do that with Social Services most of the time.

I was a Foster Parent for 5 years. While my kids came into Foster care generally for abuse, they were mainly concerned about food! The first thing I did was open my cabinets, and show them all our food. Many gasped! Then I gave them some food items they could keep with them, and eat any time they wanted! They immediately relaxed, and smiled. They knew they were in a good place

Things like lice removal is very detailed, and they will need help. Sometimes SS will send a nurse to assist. Boys can have their heads shaved, so they don’t get reinfected. Every head in the house has to be treated, and eggs removed. Every piece of bedding, clothing needs to be washed on the highest heat setting. All stuffed animals should be removed and treated or put outside to freeze. All furniture, and flooring treated. This all has to happen simultaneously on the same day! Or they will reinfect. It takes me 5-6 hours to accomplish. Also some of this will need to be repeated when the eggs hatch out.

No, you don’t have to take in all the kids if they should need foster care. Don’t let anyone guilt you into it unless you truely feel led by God. The people caring for them should be up for the task, and happy to meet their daily needs, which may include frequent trips to Doctors, counselors, therapists, and home visits. In the unlikely event they enter Foster Care you can also request visits with the children. Social Workers love to have family visits.

Often my children would ask me. “Why didn’t anyone help me, or call Social Services sooner?” When a child is hungry every day is long & hard. They may fall behind developmentaly in both brain, and body growth. Please call while they are young enough to catch up! This is a good thing to do for those you love! Please be the one to show courageous love for these children. They need you to call.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU for being a foster parent!!! It must be difficult, thankless work and God bless you for being there for those children! I would LOVE to be a foster parent but my DH isn’t interested.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

My advice, please don’t call CPS. They are the friendly face of the state that supports feminism, abortion, and many other social ills. I don’t know how much you can do yourself, but anything you do is going to be better then handing off those kids to the government.

 

[Dasi4747]

The answer to this question is…MIL had a talk with Mrs.X about keeping the 7 year old clean at school so she wasn’t teased or picked on at school. Since then, Mrs.X has done a decent job of keeping the 7 year old “clean” (cleaner anyway). So, we know Mrs. X CAN do it- but apparently she only thinks so has to because of school. When once talking about how life is different when kids enter school, she said “Now I have to give her a bath!” Yikes.

As far as food goes, the last I heard the family was receiving food stamps. I know how much they received in the past and I don’t know how they feed all their family with it because it’s about the same I feed my family on and my two kids still nurse and don’t eat a ton of food. Yet, they have made several comments that they get more than what they can use. I’m thinking either they eat really cheap unhealthy food or Mrs. X just doesn’t want to get up and make a meal. I struggle with being lazy myself but I still have to feed my kids.

As for diapers, if someone gave them diapers I don’t think they would change their diapers more. In fact I tried giving her some free cloth diapers and she said she didn’t want them. If disposables were given to her, I think she would just continue change infrequently and “spread them out”, not helping the children at all.

I would love to be able to help with diapers or food but honestly we are in a tight place right now. In fact, we use cloth diapers and part time EC (taking our baby to the potty) to save on diaper costs. We were on and off food stamps ourselves for a bit after my husband was laid off a couple years ago and we had to start our own business, and money is sometimes scarce during the different seasons.

I know the family would step up and take care of the kids, all of us together. BUT- it would have to involve splitting them up somehow. There’s no way any one of us could take all 5 on top of our existing families and obligations, and that makes me feel even more guilty- they potentially lose their family and kids.

OP, does this family go to church? Is there a Catholic church nearby? They need help. .

This family goes to Mass off and on. Again, I’m not trying to look down on this family- attending Mass has always been a struggle for me until recently. This fall, Mr. & Mrs. X went to his football games on Sunday morning, but skipped church. It’s cold here (we live up north) and my husband goes to the games sometimes (never in conflict with Mass) and sees the kids in inapproprate clothing for the season, cold. Last time he went she walked off with the older kids for a walk around the track and left her baby in a stroller by himself. She has done this at a park this summer too, leaving the 7 year old in charge of the kids, then leaving so far away she isn’t even in eye-sight of the kids. Fortunately my husband and I were around (no, we weren’t ask to watch them) so we kept an eye on them.

When someone else called CPS recently, nothing really happened and they chalked it off to Mrs. X’s family being retaliatory (they are that way) but I have a feeling it wasn’t. I don’t their kids would automatically be taken away if I made one call, as nothing happened last time.

After thinking and praying more last night…I think it’s the only thing that will make a big enough statement to make them change. Otherwise, just us nagging them will not lead to change, and I can’t watch their family for them 24/7 and be their “mother”. I also think I would have to tell my husband, and live with the consequences that I may anger his family. It puts me in a hard place, because I’m already condemned in their family for some of my parenting practices that they don’t agree with. I can deal with it for me, but I would feel bad if my husband was “disowned” or put in the middle. He already has to defend me for the way we raise our children.

Need to pray more myself…and please pray for me!

 

[EasterJoy]

My advice, please don’t call CPS. They are the friendly face of the state that supports feminism, abortion, and many other social ills. I don’t know how much you can do yourself, but anything you do is going to be better then handing off those kids to the government.

If the extended family can convince the troubled family that letting them help is necessary lest CPS get involved, that is the better option. CPS has a lot of power, and they aren’t always predictable about how they choose to use it. It is predictable that they are overworked and decisions will be made without as much time invested by CPS as would be ideal. Even CPS can’t help that, and I don’t think they’d deny that. Moreover, neither CPS nor the extended family can control what the courts might do, if it comes to that. We are talking about children who have the opportunity to make dead vermin into playthings. This is an extreme situation.

Having said that, if the children continue to suffer and other options are exhausted, then there will be a moral necessity to get someone who has the power to intervene involved. Besides, if the troubled family does not change their ways, the extended family will have no power to keep someone else from calling CPS. If things are as the OP depicts them, I predict that someone will, especially since the 7 year old is old enough to put them in contact with the school system.

 

[EasterJoy]

…When someone else called CPS recently, nothing really happened and they chalked it off to Mrs. X’s family being retaliatory (they are that way) but I have a feeling it wasn’t. I don’t their kids would automatically be taken away if I made one call, as nothing happened last time…

By “they”, I presume you mean the parents in question. Oy vey.

These things have a way of nothing happening, nothing happening, and then maybe nothing ever happening or maybe ALOT happening all at once and off the cart goes down the hill, where no one can catch it. It is very hard to predict, because it is being handled by someone who is overwhelmed with work, possibly going to work every day and deciding “which forest fire do I try to fight today?” When someone has so much to do with such limited resources, they can hardly be blamed if the “fire hose” approach is sometimes employed.

Do your best, but realize that there isn’t a good answer here. There is a very big limit to what you can do and a bigger limit on the degree to which you can predict how your efforts will work out. Work as a unit with your husband, resolve to do your best, and resolve, too, as a couple, that you will not, whatever happens, punish yourself retroactively. Be faithful, but remember to let the Lord take care of (and take the credit for) any success.

 

[Dasi4747]

If the extended family can convince the troubled family that letting them help is necessary lest CPS get involved, that is the better option. CPS has a lot of power, and they aren’t always predictable about how they choose to use it. .

While I would love the family to get together and intervene for them, I don’t think it would happen unless people HAD to. If the children DID get taken away- they wouldn’t hesitate to take them in, but in this case I think some people (especially MIL and FIL) in the family would think it was unfair their children were taken away. Others would not, but again it may cause an all-out feud. If I simply suggested we intervene, saying it’s best to help before CPS is involved, I think it would turn into a fight about CPS being involved and it would go nowhere productive for the children.

Maybe I should call two other sister in the family (they agree CPS being involved would be just) and see if they would help if it came to the kids being taken away? The only thing that worries be about that is I know at least one sister has trouble keeping a secret- and I would like it to “anonymous” as much as possible. Maybe call the sister I think I can trust and ask her, and she would have an idea if other sister would be willing to help as well? It’s risky. I don’t want to advertise I’m thinking about it…I’ve seen when things have taken a bad turn in the family and it isn’t pretty.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

You could also call the school and them for advice. School personnel are mandated reporters, so a call from you asking for advice about parenting classes or other resources for the X family, could start them on a track of paying more attention and then reporting.

It sounds like Mrs X, as well as just not having good life skills, may be suffering from depression or other health issues (she’s not eating well either and has had 5 children) that makes her just too tired to cope. How would a suggestion that she get a physical go over?

 

[HollyDolly]

No! I know you mean well with this advice but DO NOT ever take photos of someone else’s child’s diaper rash. It involves taking pictures of a child’s private parts. Even with the best of intentions, photos like that could get the photographer and anyone who possessed the images in serious trouble.

I would be furious with any family member who dared to take pictures of my child’s privates! Good parents would be outraged and might cut off all contact with anyone who would do such a thing. It won’t help the children if the mom or dad press charges against the aunt.

I can understand why you might be upset with the suggestion.The reason I mention it is because it could become a case of she said he said.In otherwards; the mother may accuse her sister in law of lying to authorities about the diaper rash amongst other things.
I also assume that in severe cases of child abuse; photos might be taken of the abuse by law enforcement to document the abuse and use it as evidence in criminal court if the parents or so called boyfriend injures or kills a child. We get a lot of that in San Antonio;where some boyfriend injures or kills his girlfriend’s baby.Latest case invovles a 5 year old boy abused by his stepmom.Both the dad and stepmom have been brought up on charges.The poor little boy died and his mom is in prison;for what the paper didn’t say.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

While I would love the family to get together and intervene for them, I don’t think it would happen unless people HAD to. If the children DID get taken away- they wouldn’t hesitate to take them in, but in this case I think some people (especially MIL and FIL) in the family would think it was unfair their children were taken away. Others would not, but again it may cause an all-out feud. If I simply suggested we intervene, saying it’s best to help before CPS is involved, I think it would turn into a fight about CPS being involved and it would go nowhere productive for the children.

Maybe I should call two other sister in the family (they agree CPS being involved would be just) and see if they would help if it came to the kids being taken away? The only thing that worries be about that is I know at least one sister has trouble keeping a secret- and I would like it to “anonymous” as much as possible. Maybe call the sister I think I can trust and ask her, and she would have an idea if other sister would be willing to help as well? It’s risky. I don’t want to advertise I’m thinking about it…I’ve seen when things have taken a bad turn in the family and it isn’t pretty.

No, I don’t recommend going behind your husband’s back to contact family members. Why doesn’t he want to act?

 

[Dasi4747]

It sounds like Mrs X, as well as just not having good life skills, may be suffering from depression or other health issues (she’s not eating well either and has had 5 children) that makes her just too tired to cope. How would a suggestion that she get a physical go over?

I don’t think it’s depression. Mr. & Mrs. X are very happy with their family and life. It is not a “I need help…I am tired…This is too much”. Whenever help (in various aspects) has been offered, it has been turned down. It is a “Our life is great; our children are a blessing; We want to have more children” all the while not understanding they are not doing their job caring for their current children. I do think Mrs. X would like more help from Mr. X, but not to the point where she is depressed about it. She is a positive happy person. However, I know she is also a people-pleaser and has trouble asserting herself with her husband when she disagrees with him. I don’t think she would be offended if I suggested a physical but she would probably ask why I suggested it. And she probably wouldn’t go to one as they don’t have insurance and wouldn’t be able to afford it. You would think, if they are overwhelmed with their obligations, they would practice NFP to avoid pregnancy for a time, until they were at a place where they could care for their current children and another child. But none of their children were surprises (with the exception of their first) and I know they actively tried to conceive their newest baby. That said, some in the family have wondered if Mr. X is depressed. He seems unmotivated and nonadaptive.

No, I don’t recommend going behind your husband’s back to contact family members. Why doesn’t he want to act?

I’ve decided I’m going to talk about this with my husband, and anything I do will be with him or with his blessing. I have never kept ANYTHING from my husband, and even if I decided to I doubt I would stick with it for very long. I’ve been praying that God will open his heart to a discussion on the matter.

I think the main reasons he doesn’t want to get involved are:

1. He’s already pushed family members away with talking to them about the truth of the Catholic Church. The other brother (Mr. Z), has a strained relationship with my husband now. Mr. Z thinks my husband (and other people) should not get involved with other people
   s business and use words to tell people how to live their life (only lead by example). So when my husband has tried to talk to Mr. Z about religion (Mr. Z has fallen away from his Catholic upbringing), he angered Mr. Z. Mr. Z and Mr. X are extremely close and my husband feels if he gets involved with Mr. X then Mr. X will only shun my husband and get closer to Mr. Z, causing a rift within the family. My husband is trying really hard to unite the family right now, as we are not as close as we used to be, and he thinks getting involved with Mr. X’s business will undermine his family unity efforts. His sisters are already kind of starting a little clique against my husband’s parents. And with the other two brothers against us, it’s going to destroy the family. Because of Mr. Z’s beliefs, we would never be able to get him on board for an intervention with Mr. X.
2. My husband thinks nothing we can say or do will make Mr. and Mrs. X change their ways (Short of taking their children in- which they would never willingly hand over.)
3. He’s a man. He doesn’t get as emotionally involved as I do. If it’s “out of sight” it’s “out of mind”. When we have baby sat for them, and changed those bloody horrible diapers, my husband walked away and didn’t want to look. He doesn’t dwell on things as I do.In fact he sometimes gets upset with me for repeatedly bringing things up and being “negative”. He has told me he has a soft spot for the oldest child; but since she’s more cared for now, that doesn’t really help. He does recognize that what they do is wrong. But I don’t think he recognizes the severity of it as I do. I grew up in an abusive home and remember wanting an advocate and wanting to be out of the situation. I can relate to the children. My husband doesn’t have that advantage.

I’m going to talk with my husband on Sunday about it. Giving myself some time to pray for both of us first before having the conversation.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

What a difficult, horrible situation. It truly seems like “damned if you do, damned if you don’t.” All I can do is pray for you! (And for those kids, of course.)

 

[Mrs_Sally]

What a difficult, horrible situation. It truly seems like “damned if you do, damned if you don’t.” All I can do is pray for you! (And for those kids, of course.)

Praying too!

 

[Xantippe]

“he thinks getting involved with Mr. X’s business will undermine his family unity efforts.”

Don’t bother talking to the extended family. Just get your husband on board and make a call to CPS about what you’ve seen with your own eyes (no hearsay). And then don’t tell anybody it was you, but help generously.

I suggest showing your husband Matthew 25. That’s the parable about the sheep and the goats. “Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’”

The second half of that is very striking: “I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”"

These kids need your help. This is quite possibly the most important thing you’ll ever do.

Best wishes and God bless you.

 

[Dasi4747]

“he thinks getting involved with Mr. X’s business will undermine his family unity efforts.”

Don’t bother talking to the extended family. Just get your husband on board and make a call to CPS about what you’ve seen with your own eyes (no hearsay). And then don’t tell anybody it was you, but help generously.

I’m not horribly experienced with CPS, but from another situation on my side of the family, it seems that the allegations brought against people are revealed to them. So even if you are “anonymous”, when certain allegations are brought up against you, it’s easy for people to figure out who made the call. This happened with my sister. She had to call CPS (this situation was more drug/violence related than neglect) and the person she called about was able to look in the file, see what was said, and then easily questioned my sister if it was her, at which point she admitted. I’m worried that even if we try to call CPS anonymously, it will be an easy process of elimination. At which point I could forsee MIL and FIL starting a “witch-hunt” and asking people in the family point-blank if they were the ones who called. In which case, if me or my husband were asked directly if we made the call, obviously we could not lie as that would be a sin, and not giving an answer would make it obvious it was us. Last time CPS was called on them, the MIL and FIL were trying to figure out who it was. THe previous allegations were “unsafe living conditions” and the FIL was just like “Who are they to determine what’s safe and what’s not!” and defending Mr. and Mrs. X. They were angry someone called.

If I thought I could get away with making an anonymous call, I think the decision on what to do would be easier. But with the specifics and details that I have, if Mr. and Mrs. X hear what they are accused of, they are going to know it was someone close in the family.

The are so many options and all of them come with some sort of con. In some places, CPS is too quick to take families away, in other places children are in serious danger and nothing is done about it. There is no way of knowing what exactly is going to happen so I have to be prepared to live with the consequences either way. I don’t want to make a rash decision. But I’m getting really tired of doing nothing. Every couple months when I hear a new story I get so frustrated.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Do not worry about them knowing it was you. All the family unity in the world will not help if one of those children becomes seriously ill. Or years from now will a tenuous relationship with ma and pa be worth knowing that all of those children grew up miserable and under their potential and you did nothing ?

You have no way of knowing the outcome but that part is not up to you. You need to decide what you can do now to help those children now.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’m not horribly experienced with CPS, but from another situation on my side of the family, it seems that the allegations brought against people are revealed to them. So even if you are “anonymous”, when certain allegations are brought up against you, it’s easy for people to figure out who made the call. This happened with my sister. She had to call CPS (this situation was more drug/violence related than neglect) and the person she called about was able to look in the file, see what was said, and then easily questioned my sister if it was her, at which point she admitted. I’m worried that even if we try to call CPS anonymously, it will be an easy process of elimination. At which point I could forsee MIL and FIL starting a “witch-hunt” and asking people in the family point-blank if they were the ones who called. In which case, if me or my husband were asked directly if we made the call, obviously we could not lie as that would be a sin, and not giving an answer would make it obvious it was us. Last time CPS was called on them, the MIL and FIL were trying to figure out who it was. THe previous allegations were “unsafe living conditions” and the FIL was just like “Who are they to determine what’s safe and what’s not!” and defending Mr. and Mrs. X. They were angry someone called.

If I thought I could get away with making an anonymous call, I think the decision on what to do would be easier. But with the specifics and details that I have, if Mr. and Mrs. X hear what they are accused of, they are going to know it was someone close in the family.

The are so many options and all of them come with some sort of con. In some places, CPS is too quick to take families away, in other places children are in serious danger and nothing is done about it. There is no way of knowing what exactly is going to happen so I have to be prepared to live with the consequences either way. I don’t want to make a rash decision. But I’m getting really tired of doing nothing. Every couple months when I hear a new story I get so frustrated.

Your concerns are valid. We asked the CPS social worker who called and although we were told that it was confidential, he did imply that our son did not call himself. We figured it was his girlfriend, whom he called all the time, sometimes running out of the house with someone else’s cell phone. I am SURE he told her he was being abused. This was while HE was in full-on rebellion from just about anything we asked him to do, was stealing from me, etc.

Our son confirmed that it WAS the GF later on once he had come out of his rebellion. We bore and bear her no ill will; from the information (although false) she was getting from him she’d have been irresponsible NOT to call CPS.

Anyway, you’re right that it’s usually not too hard to figure out who made the call. A very valid concern, and it can cause families to split apart, which means the people involved have even less support and oversight.

 

[masondoggy]

From everything described here by the OP, it is my opinion that this is a SERIOUS child neglect and endangerment case and needs to be taken very seriously. Leaving young children alone in a public place under the supervision of a 7 year old and not properly dressed for the cold weather is serious child endangerment. Those kids could have been seriously harmed and it sounds to me like this is a common practice of this mother. It’s only a matter of time before something BAD happens to one of these kids.

Frankly, I think the time of worrying about ticking off other family members, including your DH, has passed. Let them get mad. Tough. If this situation is acceptable to them, then they have their own serious issues and that is not your problem.

You need to document every single incident that you witness. Every. single. time. And every single time you witness something, you need to make another call to CPS and report it. I really think you need to use you’re name so they will take you seriously. And continue to call, over and over and over. You have a moral obligation here to stand up for these kids, even if that means other people get mad at you. The kids should come first.