Dear Protestant: Where Did You Get Your Bible?

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

Sometimes folks like to talk of elephant in room so as to obfuscate the mouse/mice in the room.

Are things so black and white ? Seminaries totally skip 1400 years of HIStory ? There were zero objections/qualifications to canon until what, Luther, who included the apocrypha, with qualifications/prologue ? If you do not have 73 books in the canon you are “off the cliff” ? There is an exact moment believing one thing then another(apostate) ? If there be one error then all is error (apostate) ?..Again, possible defense mechanisms, avoiding little truths.

What is remarkable is the *consistent agreement amongst all faiths on canon, except for the apocrypha !
*
Blessings

Hi benhur.

If you had a headache…and there was a bottle of aspirin there…73 in total, yet 7 of the 73 were actually rat poison indistinguishable from the real aspirin, would you take the gamble and pop a pill?

Not just the canon it’s various other topics such as SS or lack thereof that are called into serious question.

I think protestantism as a whole has a different idea about what the promise made in Matthew 16 actually means. Jesus crushes Satan’s head, and he doesnt get bit 29 times before it happens, imo

Pax

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi Michael.

Jeromes opinion changed over time. And after the vulgate the major disputes came to a end until the reformation.

And you’re right the purpose of this thread is likely to steer us into SS. And that’s another hot topic that i have seen steered towards the apostasy discussion from some non catholics. That placing tradition equal to scripture opens the door for a truckload of heresy, thus, exactly why the CC is so off base to this day- in their own minds of course( as one being their own authority)

Being the only Catholic in a family of hardliner protestants, i think I’ve heard it all. The apostasy claim is widespread, unfortunately.

Hi LA. (Sorry to ask but is there anything else I can call you )

I guess you got this but for anyone else that wonders about me. I do not believe in Catholic apostasy and have defended that viewpoint before in circles of uninformed protestants here where I live. I do believe “from a Protestant view” that Catholics are just as Christian as much as the meaning of Christian, I hope to be.

I sincerely respect your belief and decision inside as you describe a hardline Protestant family and personally I don’t have any problem with it. My family are more the “we don’t really care” type without thinking much afterwards. I almost had a Catholic wedding and EVERYONE here was fine. So just to say that again, I wish you all the best and that everything works out well.

But back to the post. Why do you say he changed? And also on Cejatan? I think his opinion, obviously not being official in a Catholic argument, but still I think qorth talking about?

Regards
Michael

 

[MichaelP3]

Right on all accounts.

However, CAF is moderated extremely well in comparison to the many polemic forums out there. I really don’t see many unruly posts tbh. If poster signs up and is ugly with people they are dealt with swiftly.

I think we all actually enjoy talking with each other no matter what branch of Christendom we fall under. Would be great if the rest of the world could behave more like members of this forum.

Yea. I subscribed to Christian forum 3 days ago and found it boring. Lol. Everyone will probably agree with me . Although the one thread about a Catholic convert asking how to deal with his family impressed me. It was all about Christianity and nothing judgemental. But that was an exception.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi LA. (Sorry to ask but is there anything else I can call you )

I guess you got this but for anyone else that wonders about me. I do not believe in Catholic apostasy and have defended that viewpoint before in circles of uninformed protestants here where I live. I do believe “from a Protestant view” that Catholics are just as Christian as much as the meaning of Christian, I hope to be.

I sincerely respect your belief and decision inside as you describe a hardline Protestant family and personally I don’t have any problem with it. My family are more the “we don’t really care” type without thinking much afterwards. I almost had a Catholic wedding and EVERYONE here was fine. So just to say that again, I wish you all the best and that everything works out well.

But back to the post. Why do you say he changed? And also on Cejatan? I think his opinion, obviously not being official in a Catholic argument, but still I think qorth talking about?

Regards
Michael

Hi Michael.

I’m fine with just typing the letter “L” if that’s easier? Made this screen name when Lent started and felt lazy that day, so there we have the story on the screen name Lenten-Ashes.

You are fortunate to have the family that you do.

Jerome eventually started treating the disputed books as scripture, quoting it along side scripture indicating he sees these books as inspired. I think this was from 395AD:

Do not, my dearest brother, estimate my worth by the number of my years. Gray hairs are not wisdom; it is wisdom which is as good as gray hairs At least that is what Solomon says: “wisdom is the gray hair unto men.’ [Wisdom 4:9]” Moses too in choosing the seventy elders is told to take those whom he knows to be elders indeed, and to select them not for their years but for their discretion (Num. 11:16)? And, as a boy, Daniel judges old men and in the flower of youth condemns the incontinence of age (Daniel 13:55-59, or Story of Susannah 55-59, only found in the Catholic Bibles) Jerome, To Paulinus, Epistle 58, (A.D. 395), in NPNF2, VI:119

matt1618.freeyellow.com/jerome.html

I guess you could start a thread on Cajetan if you like.

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi Michael.

I’m fine with just typing the letter “L” if that’s easier? Made this screen name when Lent started and felt lazy that day, so there we have the story on the screen name Lenten-Ashes.

You are fortunate to have the family that you do.

Jerome eventually started treating the disputed books as scripture, quoting it along side scripture indicating he sees these books as inspired. I think this was from 395AD:

I guess you could start a thread on Cajetan if you like.

Hi L

Will look into Jerome in time as you pointed out. Just on a weekend holiday cuurently with just my mobile. And searching a lot is a burden. At least you pointed out something new, not like I previously heard here, well it was included, case closed (me thinking well an appendix, uhmm okay)

On Cajetan. Well If we are talking about Apocryphal books I think he can be discussed here. If not as OP intended in my opinion maybe not. I just think one should get to a point where you discuss the controversial points (as this would be one in my case when I talk about history making me more protestant) then just saying “well it was the people, not the Church” when defending the “whole truth” concept of Catholicism?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi L

Will look into Jerome in time as you pointed out. Just on a weekend holiday cuurently with just my mobile. And searching a lot is a burden. At least you pointed out something new, not like I previously heard here, well it was included, case closed (me thinking well an appendix, uhmm okay)

On Cajetan. Well If we are talking about Apocryphal books I think he can be discussed here. If not as OP intended in my opinion maybe not. I just think one should get to a point where you discuss the controversial points (as this would be one in my case when I talk about history making me more protestant) then just saying “well it was the people, not the Church” when defending the “whole truth” concept of Catholicism?

I think the best case for the protestant canon is Jerome’s disputes because he was a Patristic Father and his words/opinions carry much more weight than Luther and later reformers(internal/external). In the end they are single voices out of many, sometimes stating the obvious - that bad people exist within our ranks and that sometimes sound teaching can still mislead people into faulty thinking unless proper catechesis takes place with the correct disposition of the heart .

I am interested in your personal journey as to why history made you protestant - so by all means, let’s hear your thoughts on Cajetan. Actually, would be even better if you had a blog or could write all your findings and objections during your studies, somewhere. I’m getting a better understanding if your objections with the church but it’s happened gradually.

 

[MichaelP3]

I think the best case for the protestant canon is Jerome’s disputes because he was a Patristic Father and his words/opinions carry much more weight than Luther and later reformers(internal/external). In the end they are single voices out of many, sometimes stating the obvious - that bad people exist within our ranks and that sometimes sound teaching can still mislead people into faulty thinking unless proper catechesis takes place with the correct disposition of the heart .

I am interested in your personal journey as to why history made you protestant - so by all means, let’s hear your thoughts on Cajetan. Actually, would be even better if you had a blog or could write all your findings and objections during your studies, somewhere. I’m getting a better understanding if your objections with the church but it’s happened gradually.

Hi L

I’m not sure what you meant by the whole blog post. Me starting a blog would mean I actually think much people are that much interested in my life. I don’t. It’s pretty normal and boring and I don’t expect anyone to stay up and actually be intrigued by it. I do think I can say something to a very selected few and still my mere human opinion. If that is the case we can PM that to each other.

Yea I came from a Neutral religious background. Brought up in a Calvinistic Church (Dutch Reformed as most white Afrikaans speaking people started here) without even knowing who the guy was. Got confirmed and lived my life. Met a beautiful Polish Catholic girl on one of my travels. Been to Poland 8 times and eventually married her in March this year. She is living with me now. Attended her sisters Catholic wedding last year and her first childs baptism 2 months ago in Poland. Attended Catholic Christmas eve mass before with her Catholic family. Been to maybe 20 Catholic masses in more languages I can comprehend. Had an entire Catholic wedding planned and 5 months before it happened my wife said no. I was fine with the Catholic wedding , my whole family was fine and obviously hers were fine. (This would be personal and need a PM to answer). Today we are happy married and she is more a Protestant than me. She gets irritated I am even on this forum but thets my story in short. She is doing a PhD in history (I am an Engineer and always loved history, but we need to eat as well) and although it’s not anything Theological, we both agree History is a barrier.

So a blog, maybe not. Just talking on this forum is okay. But a PM I will answer.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi L

I’m not sure what you meant by the whole blog post. Me starting a blog would mean I actually think much people are that much interested in my life. I don’t. It’s pretty normal and boring and I don’t expect anyone to stay up and actually be intrigued by it. I do think I can say something to a very selected few and still my mere human opinion. If that is the case we can PM that to each other.

Yea I came from a Neutral religious background. Brought up in a Calvinistic Church (Dutch Reformed as most white Afrikaans speaking people started here) without even knowing who the guy was. Got confirmed and lived my life. Met a beautiful Polish Catholic girl on one of my travels. Been to Poland 8 times and eventually married her in March this year. She is living with me now. Attended her sisters Catholic wedding last year and her first childs baptism 2 months ago in Poland. Attended Catholic Christmas eve mass before with her Catholic family. Been to maybe 20 Catholic masses in more languages I can comprehend. Had an entire Catholic wedding planned and 5 months before it happened my wife said no. I was fine with the Catholic wedding , my whole family was fine and obviously hers were fine. (This would be personal and need a PM to answer). Today we are happy married and she is more a Protestant than me. She gets irritated I am even on this forum but thets my story in short. She is doing a PhD in history (I am an Engineer and always loved history, but we need to eat as well) and although it’s not anything Theological, we both agree History is a barrier.

So a blog, maybe not. Just talking on this forum is okay. But a PM I will answer.

Hi Michael thanks for the response.

I didn’t mean a separate website or anything like that. I’m not sure if this site has the feature, but other forums allow you to post things - your personal journey or bio and it’s free for forum members to read. You click on the member’s name and can read this information/blog or whatever it’s called - not a actual post on the forum but still there for anyone interested.

I’m interested in genuine truth seeker’s stories regardless if the outcome or conclusion they come to differ from myself. What facts lead them to their conclusion, were they actually facts, is the conclusion they drew reasonable, etc, etc.

Just out of curiosity, if you were to actually convert to Orthodoxy, would that be a issue for you since your wife is more protestant than you are? My spouse was born Catholic, BTW, but not practicing and her beliefs are totally protestant.

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi Michael thanks for the response.

I didn’t mean a separate website or anything like that. I’m not sure if this site has the feature, but other forums allow you to post things - your personal journey or bio and it’s free for forum members to read. You click on the member’s name and can read this information/blog or whatever it’s called - not a actual post on the forum but still there for anyone interested.

I’m interested in genuine truth seeker’s stories regardless if the outcome or conclusion they come to differ from myself. What facts lead them to their conclusion, were they actually facts, is the conclusion they drew reasonable, etc, etc.

Just out of curiosity, if you were to actually convert to Orthodoxy, would that be a issue for you since your wife is more protestant than you are? My spouse was born Catholic, BTW, but not practicing and her beliefs are totally protestant.

Oh thats what you meant okay sorry for the long post then.

I mentioned the Orthodoxy thing a few times to her. The funny thing is that her Dad loves Orthodox whatever. He is the ambassador to Moldova and I might have seen every Orthodox monastery in the entire country on a visit there. When I mentioned Anglican as a joke she wasn’t impressed as apparently they would wonder why not Catholic then. The nearest Orthodox Church is maybe 300 km away from where we live. That would need some changes if to happen.

My wife is Protestant more from an emotional (because of her history with it) view. I have no emotional connection or “disconnection” here. I can become Catholic tomorrow and feel I am saved because of this and that. Firstly I think Ill be a very “bad” Catholic and secondly I wont agree that all other Christians are separated and all those interesting linguistics (trying to sound nice but its pretty clear whats meant) found in the Catachism when referring to Protestants.

Regards
Michael

 

[SyroMalankara]

Firstly I think Ill be a very “bad” Catholic

As are the rest of us.

and secondly I wont agree that all other Christians are separated

Clearly we are, from Catholics and each other.

and all those interesting linguistics (trying to sound nice but its pretty clear whats meant) found in the Catachism when referring to Protestants.

Brethren is pretty nice. Considering what most of the protestants historically have called Catholics and the Pope. Ask your wife to show you what Luther called the Pope, if you want to be embarrassed at the language, and hide the material where children won’t accidentally access it.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Oh thats what you meant okay sorry for the long post then.

I mentioned the Orthodoxy thing a few times to her. The funny thing is that her Dad loves Orthodox whatever. He is the ambassador to Moldova and I might have seen every Orthodox monastery in the entire country on a visit there. When I mentioned Anglican as a joke she wasn’t impressed as apparently they would wonder why not Catholic then. The nearest Orthodox Church is maybe 300 km away from where we live. That would need some changes if to happen.

My wife is Protestant more from an emotional (because of her history with it) view. I have no emotional connection or “disconnection” here. I can become Catholic tomorrow and feel I am saved because of this and that. Firstly I think Ill be a very “bad” Catholic and secondly I wont agree that all other Christians are separated and all those interesting linguistics (trying to sound nice but its pretty clear whats meant) found in the Catachism when referring to Protestants.

Regards
Michael

Yeah i guess orthodoxy is out if the question for you right now. It is a beautiful faith. Personally, my feet couldnt take all the standing they do in their service.

And i know some dont like imperfectly joined description of protestants, but i have to say ive heard much worse from protestants describing catholics…wh*re of babylon seems to be a fundamentalist favorite.

I think truth matters. So if the Catholic church became this mamby pamby, feel good faith with no lines in the sand, then she wouldn’t be doing her job y steering people towards the truth . Divisive as it my sound, remember Jesus said he came to divide as well

Pax

 

[Peter_J]

Strawman , you know we don’t teach that

I think I would be equally justified to say “WE don’t teach that the only Christians until AD 1054 were today’s Catholic Church” … yet there is a discussion at present about RCs believing exactly that.

I don’t have an easy answer, but perhaps both of us can agree to expend a little less energy running after this-Catholic-blog-says-this or that-Protestant-blog-says-that type sensationalism.

 

[dawid]

MichaelP3;14161731My wife is Protestant more from an emotional (because of her history with it) view. I have no emotional connection or "disconnection" here. I can become Catholic tomorrow and feel I am saved because of this and that. Firstly I think Ill be a very "bad" Catholic and secondly I wont agree that all other Christians are separated and all those interesting linguistics (trying to sound nice but its pretty clear whats meant) found in the Catachism when referring to Protestants. /QUOTE:

Hi MichaelP3

If you think that you would be a “very “bad” Catholic” you would not have to feel alone - none of us are perfect!

I include a link to EWTN’s “The Journey Home Program” as it gives the individuals’ faith stories. A general observation is that many are grateful for their Christian formation in their respective protestant paths and still benefit from that. Their journeys often included a deep aversion to the Catholic Church only changing after rigorous research and consideration.
Their approaches have often enriched the Catholic Church!
chnetwork.org/journey-home/

Kind regards
d

 

[benhur]

Hi

The claim is that this happened post Nicea. That Isis goddess was just replaced hy Mary, etc, etc.

Hi La,

Understand. Whole other topic. The only thing offhand that I recall from the council is that for the first time improper church “behavior” was subject to civil penalties. That is where once civil government persecuted the church, it now was an "enforcer’. Very sad and ironic for otherwise it was a spirt led and \important council.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Hi benhur.

If you had a headache…and there was a bottle of aspirin there…73 in total, yet 7 of the 73 were actually rat poison indistinguishable from the real aspirin, would you take the gamble and pop a pill?

Not just the canon it’s various other topics such as SS or lack thereof that are called into serious question.

I think protestantism as a whole has a different idea about what the promise made in Matthew 16 actually means. Jesus crushes Satan’s head, and he doesnt get bit 29 times before it happens, imo

Pax

Hi La,

The pills again is quite either/or , black or white. You will not die if you get inspired by apocrypha.

Yes , differing interpretations of God’s sovereign rule and guidance. And actually Satan more than bit Christ, for He died from the bruise, as have many of His followers. The biting stops in heavenly places , where Christ reigns, and where we are seated , now.

Blesings

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

The pills again is quite either/or , black or white. You will not die if you get inspired by apocrypha.

Yes , differing interpretations of God’s sovereign rule and guidance. And actually Satan more than bit Christ, for He died from the bruise, as have many of His followers. The biting stops in heavenly places , where Christ reigns, and where we are seated , now.

Blesings

Hi Ben.

What sparked the reformation again? Indulgences, prayer for the dead etc. 2 Macc

And Jesus says we must feed on every word from the mouth of God. (Matt 4:4) So it’s unfathomable to think he allowed his church to feed from a incorrect bible for over a thousand years.

Pax

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben.

What sparked the reformation again? Indulgences, prayer for the dead etc. 2 Macc

And Jesus says we must feed on every word from the mouth of God. (Matt 4:4) So it’s unfathomable to think he allowed his church to feed from a incorrect bible for over a thousand years.

Pax

Hi La,

I have been taught well here by CAF and you misapply that writ, that speaks of oral word.

Blessings

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

I have been taught well here by CAF and you misapply that writ, that speaks of oral word.

Blessings

?

 

[benhur]

?

Hi La,
You quoted writ that we live by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God, and I have been told He did not mouth canon, or that opacrypha is God breathed.

That is what I was getting at previous post.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben.

What sparked the reformation again? Indulgences, prayer for the dead etc. 2 Macc

And Jesus says we must feed on every word from the mouth of God. (Matt 4:4) So it’s unfathomable to think he allowed his church to feed from a incorrect bible for over a thousand years.

Pax

Hi La,

Not sure indulgences and prayer for dead sparked reformation. Certainly certain applications and presumptions of the aforementioned did, that did not exist 1000 years earlier.

Blessings