Dear Protestant: Where Did You Get Your Bible?

[dawid]

Yes a bit different. Yet any church worth its salt interprets via Holy Spirit guidance. Just different “methodologies”

Hi benhur

Scripture tells of Christ endowing Peter with the authority to bind and loose.
It is the authority to proclaim His teachings infallibly.

By virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

This is seldom done and then only when there is an important dispute, clarity is required and Peter or his successor speaks ex cathedra.

This is distinctive from all Christians being open to inspiration by the holy Spirit.
As there are about 40,000 protestant denominations each with their version of truth, the idea that the holy Spirit guides them all with the same Truth is implausible.

Regards
d

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,
yes Christ said we be under the seat of Moses, to do as they say. When they spew out error, it is not from the "seat’’, and we (citizens) are to be aware, and obviously not follow or be under/subject.

Blessings

There are similar ways that Christians are to discern what is Church Teaching from heterodox teaching of those in leadership positions.

Still, the command of our Lord is strong in regard to assent with obedience to the Judgment of Christian Bishops.

Matt. 18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

There is a way to appeal to the Church. It can be done local, or it can be taken to the highest authority. Ben, you can continue to reject Rome’s judgment on certain matters, but you obviously are in communion with much! And you have recognized that most, if not all, official doctrine of the Church in Rome has strong Scriptural support.

 

[Michael68]

Hi benhur

Scripture tells of Christ endowing Peter with the authority to bind and loose.
It is the authority to proclaim His teachings infallibly.

By virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

This is seldom done and then only when there is an important dispute, clarity is required and Peter or his successor speaks ex cathedra.

This is distinctive from all Christians being open to inspiration by the holy Spirit.
As there are about 40,000 protestant denominations each with their version of truth, the idea that the holy Spirit guides them all with the same Truth is implausible.

Regards
d

Protestants will also give you a variety of interpretations as to what "binding and loosing " means

 

[rcwitness]

Protestants will also give you a variety of interpretations as to what "binding and loosing " means

If they give you one at all…

 

[benhur]

Hi benhur

Scripture tells of Christ endowing Peter with the authority to bind and loose.
It is the authority to proclaim His teachings infallibly.

By virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

This is seldom done and then only when there is an important dispute, clarity is required and Peter or his successor speaks ex cathedra.

This is distinctive from all Christians being open to inspiration by the holy Spirit.
As there are about 40,000 protestant denominations each with their version of truth, the idea that the holy Spirit guides them all with the same Truth is implausible.

Regards
d

Hi d,

Understand your rationale(the 40,000) and how can that be Holy Spirit. By same token if CC is wrong on just one thing then that “plausibility” of distinct infallibility is now implausible.

Still two different methodologies generalize the church. One with pope, and one without, most other things (offices) remaining the same.

By the way, there are not 40,00 versions of baptism, or communion, or confession, getting saved, born again, end times, creation, etc., or in this case versions of how we got the bible , and final canon etc…

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Protestants will also give you a variety of interpretations as to what "binding and loosing " means

Hi M,

and a few of those interpretations originate way before reformation, even schism.

Blessings

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi d,

Understand your rationale(the 40,000) and how can that be Holy Spirit. By same token if CC is wrong on just one thing then that “plausibility” of distinct infallibility is now implausible.

Still two different methodologies generalize the church. One with pope, and one without, most other things (offices) remaining the same.

By the way, there are not 40,00 versions of baptism, or communion, or confession, getting saved, born again, end times, creation, etc., or in this case versions of how we got the bible , and final canon etc…

Blessings

Hi Ben.

Yeah, not 40,000 versions of sacraments, thankfully.

And I’d say that the method of SS has produced millions upon millions of their own ‘little popes’ if you will. With everybody being their own authority and, sadly, protestant pastor’s interpretation typically holding no more weight than that of a adolescent in the pews who has his parent’s backing.

This visible and authoritative Church that was left to us seems to no longer exist in the protestant ranks. So if i were a Christian on the fence I’d have to ask myself some difficult questions. Was the Church meant to have authority for 1500 years, then become something much different in appearance and operation? Does Truth matter? And back on topic, does having the correct bible matter? If protestants agree on " essentials" which is what i think you are implying…then who determines essential from non essential? Since there’s no chart on this anywhere in the scriptures. 1 Tim 3:15 implies that there must be a doctrinally correct church somewhere, but which one?

Pax

 

[benhur]

And I’d say that the method of SS has produced millions upon millions of their own ‘little popes’ if you will. With everybody being their own authority and, sadly, protestant pastor’s interpretation typically holding no more weight than that of a adolescent in the pews who has his parent’s backing.

Hi La,

Yes SS has its weaknesses, just as does any other “method”, ,including CC one… Yes, some have said that every P is his own “pope”. But what does that mean? He has not a spiritual father , elder, pastor, bishop , even magisterium ? Of course not. Does it partly mean he must be convinced for himself , have an individual conscience before God, much like how Jesus asked the apostles, individually, who they thought He was ? A Catholic exercises that same privilege and responsibility to make his own personal choice for the CC. No different than a P or O.

This visible and authoritative Church that was left to us seems to no longer exist in the protestant ranks

Kind of broad sweep. Mainline P churches have visible authority , some very close to what CC looks like (except pope of course) Will agree that many independents do not.

Was the Church meant to have authority for 1500 years, then become something much different in appearance and operation?

Again a loaded question. The answer is already shaped, prejudiced, just in the content of the question. The reformation would have lacked legitimacy, or moral standing, if indeed what they confronted in the church was from the beginning, that the church in 1500 operated and practiced just as the 33 ad church or even the 300 ad church , so on and on.

And back on topic, does having the correct bible matter?

Yes it matters. Not sure your 7 other books changes anything substantial, if anything at all.

If protestants agree on " essentials" which is what i think you are implying…then who determines essential from non essential? Since there’s no chart on this anywhere in the scriptures

Well even if we had a "chart’, responsibility still lies in understanding how the chart came to be in the first place. That is at any point in history, the same chart could be written for the first time…

1 Tim 3:15 implies that there must be a doctrinally correct church somewhere, but which one?

Again the emphasis is on conduct of that church , besides just right doctrine. Further the next verse keeps the "essentials’, the doctrine quite simple. I mean just look at Nicene creed versus say the decrees at Trent, and even today’s catechisms.

As to which one , which church? Same old same old question, even as Jesus put it to apostles. Without divine revelation from the Father , and guidance from Holy Spirit, it is impossible to navigate. Yet He is the Good Shepherd, by His own nature, and by our need.

Blessings

 

[dawid]

Understand your rationale(the 40,000) and how can that be Holy Spirit. By same token if CC is wrong on just one thing then that “plausibility” of distinct infallibility is now implausible.

Hi benhur

Scripture supports the Catholic position though.
What appears to be implausible to men is possible to God.

My statement did not imply all protestant beliefs were erroneous at all.
Many, if not most share those of the Church.
In many cases protestants do a better job than many Catholics.

Regards
d

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

Yes SS has its weaknesses, just as does any other “method”, ,including CC one… Yes, some have said that every P is his own “pope”. But what does that mean? He has not a spiritual father , elder, pastor, bishop , even magisterium ? Of course not. Does it partly mean he must be convinced for himself , have an individual conscience before God, much like how Jesus asked the apostles, individually, who they thought He was ? A Catholic exercises that same privilege and responsibility to make his own personal choice for the CC. No different than a P or O.

Thanks for responding.

Would agree to a certain extent that our conscience can be our guide. But sometimes our consciences are not in conformity with reality and are in need of a tune up. I’m certain these liberal “churches” claim their consciences as their guide as well. Now I’m not their judge, but on the surface it appears they are going to hell with hymnals in their hands.

Kind of broad sweep. Mainline P churches have visible authority , some very close to what CC looks like (except pope of course) Will agree that many independents do not.

Even the mainstream denominations have very little authority. If you dont like what the pastor says you can just walk across the ST to the next Church. Wont take long to find a place that makes you feel warm and fuzzy( not you in particular, speaking generally) there’s no actual united Church to take matters to as instructed… Matt 18:17 get ex communicated and it’s not binding and means absolutely nothing…

Again a loaded question. The answer is already shaped, prejudiced, just in the content of the question. The reformation would have lacked legitimacy, or moral standing, if indeed what they confronted in the church was from the beginning, that the church in 1500 operated and practiced just as the 33 ad church or even the 300 ad church , so on and on.

Well nobody was practicing SS in those eras and that’s the major pillar of protestantism. And Christians submitted to authority. So i think the C’s and O’s more closely resemble the early church in practice…

Yes it matters. Not sure your 7 other books changes anything substantial, if anything at all.Well even if we had a "chart’, responsibility still lies in understanding how the chart came to be in the first place. That is at any point in history, the same chart could be written for the first time… Again the emphasis is on conduct of that church , besides just right doctrine. Further the next verse keeps the "essentials’, the doctrine quite simple. I mean just look at Nicene creed versus say the decrees at Trent, and even today’s catechisms.

As to which one , which church? Same old same old question, even as Jesus put it to apostles. Without divine revelation from the Father , and guidance from Holy Spirit, it is impossible to navigate. Yet He is the Good Shepherd, by His own nature, and by our need.

Blessings

would you agree that a MRI and/or CT scan gives a much clearer and detailed image than a simple xray?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

In many cases protestants do a better job than many Catholics.

Regards
d

They are typically much better evangelizers.

 

[rcwitness]

Hi La,

Well we all should live by His word , and many believe scripture is most assuredly that "word’’, and beyond that, beware, even of just what is scripture and is not.

I was not saying Catholics say scripture is not breathed, but that scripture also has its equal assurance in its magisterium. That the magisterium must be also the "word "of God to live by. It goes further than canon, according to Catholics.

Blessings

After some more thought about this, which I agree that it is an important matter that concerns all Protestants, an aspect of the Catholic foundation came to mind. Yes, we believe Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium are foundations of the Church of God. Sacred Tradition (Scripture and Tradition) is Divine Revelation which the Magisterium declared closed. The Church, through her Magisterial authority, closed the Scriptures! But this put an end to the Public Revelation. Scripture, and Tradition then we’re the only source of Revelation. The Magisterium, therefore, is unable to manifest anything new or outside these. It is still necessary (Magisterium) for governance of Tradition and Scripture to rule.

 

[benhur]

Scripture supports the Catholic position though.
What appears to be implausible to men is possible to God.

Hi d,

Both our positions are only possible with God, and are supported by scripture by respective positions.

My statement did not imply all protestant beliefs were erroneous at all.
Many, if not most share those of the Church.
In many cases protestants do a better job than many Catholics.

Ok Thank you.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Hi d,

Both our positions are only possible with God, and are supported by scripture by respective positions.
Ok Thank you.

Blessings

Yes, they can both be debated, drawing on Scripture. Only one can be the true intentions of God. And the Protestant position lacks in conformity to one mind and judgment as St Paul so urged us to come to.

 

[dawid]

They are typically much better evangelizers.

Hi Lenten_ashes

The Journey Home programme hosted on EWTN offers many examples of how protestant pastors who are grateful to their Christian formation in their respective denominations, have enriched the Catholic Church in their contributions.

One can list many inspiring names such as Scott Hahn, Steve Ray etc. They now have a large following of cradle Catholics who appreciate the perspective that there theologians have offered us.

Regards
d

 

[benhur]

Yes, they can both be debated, drawing on Scripture. Only one can be the true intentions of God. And the Protestant position lacks in conformity to one mind and judgment as St Paul so urged us to come to.

Hi rc,

Agreed, but now what does the CC position “lack in” for so many to argue otherwise ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

After some more thought about this, which I agree that it is an important matter that concerns all Protestants, an aspect of the Catholic foundation came to mind. Yes, we believe Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium are foundations of the Church of God. Sacred Tradition (Scripture and Tradition) is Divine Revelation which the Magisterium declared closed. The Church, through her Magisterial authority, closed the Scriptures! But this put an end to the Public Revelation. Scripture, and Tradition then we’re the only source of Revelation. The Magisterium, therefore, is unable to manifest anything new or outside these. It is still necessary (Magisterium) for governance of Tradition and Scripture to rule.

Hi rc,

so there is public revelation and what is the other , private? Canon is closed but not divine revelation on doctrinal matters , according to CC. That is, Tradition, equal to Writ, is not closed in terms of defining declarations. As an example, the tradition of infallibility and IC and Assumption, being tradition from afar off, are relatively recently declared Tradition, capital T ,equal to Writ declaration.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,

so there is public revelation and what is the other , private? Canon is closed but not divine revelation on doctrinal matters , according to CC. That is, Tradition, equal to Writ, is not closed in terms of defining declarations. As an example, the tradition of infallibility and IC and Assumption, being tradition from afar off, are relatively recently declared Tradition, capital T ,equal to Writ declaration.

Blessings

When do you believe the true Canon of Scripture was officially declared? And I mean, the Bible that you and your church use with all its parts.

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,

Agreed, but now what does the CC position “lack in” for so many to argue otherwise ?

Blessings

Hmmm… my criticism of the Church of God? I will take that to mean the success, or lack there of, of the members within.

I believe there are more lukewarm and hypocritical Catholics per numbers than in the denominations (non-Cats). We face a struggle with lack luster, poorly devoted members. And I also think the hierarchy abuses it’s role as judge of matters such as annulments. We all do this for a lack of true suffering for Christ.

It’s actually a good question, Ben. Maybe thread worthy!

 

[YADA]

Hi d,

Understand your rationale(the 40,000) and how can that be Holy Spirit. By same token if CC is wrong on just one thing then that “plausibility” of distinct infallibility is now implausible.

Still two different methodologies generalize the church. One with pope, and one without, most other things (offices) remaining the same.

By the way, there are not 40,00 versions of baptism, or communion, or confession, getting saved, born again, end times, creation, etc., or in this case versions of how we got the bible , and final canon etc…

Blessings

There may not be 40k versions of Baptism and Communion or other Sacraments But there is not consistency either …

Scripture tells us that we partake of Christ’s Body and Blood …and to do so unworthily is to eat and drink to our detriment…illness and / or death even …the writing is of the early Christians provides this same witness and the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church has maintained that belief …but within Protestantism there is great diversity of belief and practice around Communion. Baptism is another area where there is great diversityt of belief within Protestantism Churches …everything from Baptism is unnecessary (replaced with the “Sinners Prayer”), to a nice symbolic action, to regenerative …

The fact is Communion and Baptism …two examples cannot “be” what every Christian Church teaches.

Many Protestants have great angst because the Church has a leader - the Successor of Peter to whom Jesus Himself gave the Keys and with whom Jesus entrusted the care and feeding of the entire faithful and his fellow workers for Christ …while they protest against the Pope and the apostolic succession they have replaced it with many Popes and a magisterial menagerie that has no consistency beyond a collection of like minded members who can abandon the community to another whenever differences in belief arise.

The promise of Christ is reduced to naught and the Holy Spirit becomes the author of confusion, disunity and strife …it is very sad for Christianity and our witness to unbelievers.