Dear Protestant: Where Did You Get Your Bible?

[dawid]

People claim Jesus doesn’t quote from the disputed books.

Here are some links to the quotes:

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm

 

[Wannano]

Dear Wannano it is part of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church that all Christians are considered to be part of the Church. See: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

When a validly baptised person joins the Catholic Church, there is no baptism but only Confirmation.

You will see the reasoning for the membership of our separated bretheren in the Catechism.

Several protestant denominations share the same baptism certificate with the Catholic Church where I live.

I trust this answers your question.

Thank you, I have read it through. How do you reconcile #862 with #819?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thank you, I have read it through. How do you reconcile #862 with #819?

Don’t see any reconciliation needed between the two.

It’s simply saying there is truth outside the Church. We believe Protestant Christianity does contain plenty of truth. It’s also saying that only one Church was given keys and promise, and it’s much better for a person’s soul to get with that Church.

In the beginning there was one ship…the Catholic church. That gigantic ship is still here sailing across the seas. Then others like the Eastern Churches and reformers took material from that original ship and made their own smaller ships. We are all sailing along side each other(some more distant than others) trying to go to the same place. The Mother ship is more equipped to handle long journeys than rafts, boats and small ships. And the Mother ship was given a promise from the Commander that backup is always available when needed.

 

[YADA]

well Aramaic is closer to Hebrew than greek. The debate is heavy and not sure LXX was used. Some even say al three were used, hebrew greek Aramaic. Some say only Moses’s books were translated. Others say Origen formulated the greek old testament. So not sure but prefer to think Greek was not read in Jerusalem and vicinity synagogues. Where there could have been greek , we only find Hebrew in dead sea scrolls.

Blessings

This is not true. Multiple languages were found at Qumran among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Most were in Hebrew but there was an ancient primitive version of Hebrew and over 25 Greek manuscripts. Aramaic is also found.

 

[benhur]

]They also did not preach or practice that Scripture was the sole rule of faith.

Hi rc,

They also did not have the “magisterium” model/ problem that reformers faced.

Writ was normative, as much as what was written

I don’t think your argument helps Sola Scripture or Protestant rejection of Church authority (visible and universal).

I think the P’ 'model" is closer to OT/Judaism than CC model. SS does not reject Church authority.

I am merely saying that I don’t have the *knowledge of how *Judaism knew what was Scripture and what was not. But I am pretty sure they knew it. What they read in the synagogue was regarded as Scripture.

That is to my point . P’s have and understand the somehow and may be relatively foreign to CC paradigm.

Are you implying there was disputes about what was and what was not Scripture?

NO, for the most part.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Dear benhur
Hebrew Scripture was originally in Hebrew. After the Greek empire expanded, Greek became the language and the Scripture was translated to Greek.
You will find that about two thirds of Jesus’ and the apostle’s quotes are in the Deuterocanonicals.

The Dead sea scrolls would ]therefore

be in Hebrew.
Hi d,

Not sure Palestinians’ spoke Greek as primary language. I thought they learned Hebrew as first or second language, and from a young age.

Highly doubt any quotes are from Deutero books, maybe one or two. never heard 2/3rds.

Don’t understand your point of Scrolls “therefore” being Hebrew. Why were they not in Greek, or copies/fragments of Septuagint ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

All 3 may have been used in synagogues. Jerusalem was sort of a metropolitan area for tha era with several languages spoken.

But i dont think it’s coincidence that Jesus kept quoting from LXX, or that other Jews(early Christians) preferred it as well.

Greek is a more specficic language so harder to mis interpret something. I think you can say love like 5 differrnt ways. So i get the rational behind the Greek scripture LXX movement which obviously carried over into the NT.

Hi La,

Yes have read about the 3 languages that may have been used. Not sure Hebrew’s conciseness as compared to Greek, which as you say, was very succinct language. Understand the rationale also by LXX.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

This is not true. Multiple languages were found at Qumran among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Most were in Hebrew but there was an ancient primitive version of Hebrew and over 25 Greek manuscripts. Aramaic is also found.

Hi Y,

OK .Stand corrected . Thank you.

 

[dawid]

Not sure Palestinians’ spoke Greek as primary language. I thought they learned Hebrew as first or second language, and from a young age.

Dear benhur

Correct - I believe that the local languages continued (We know Hebrew exists today). However Greek would have been adopted as the official language as was Latin years later.
BTW I believe the name “Palestine” was introduced after the destruction of the Temple as the Romans wanted to exterminate the Jewish heritage.

Highly doubt any quotes are from Deutero books, maybe one or two. never heard 2/3rds.

Here are some links to the quotes:

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm

Don’t understand your point of Scrolls “therefore” being Hebrew. Why were they not in Greek, or copies/fragments of Septuagint ?

Some scrolls would have preceded the Greek occupation and therefore would be in Hebrew and other local languages. There are copies of the Deuterocanonical books among the scrolls. The Septuagint would be in Greek and translated post occupation.
The Hebrew versions of the Deuterocanonical books proves their existence prior to the Septuagint which was translated from the Hebrew…

 

[dawid]

They also did not have the “magisterium” model/ problem that reformers faced.

Acts and the writings of the early Church fathers describe how the bishops acted as the Magisterium of the time.

I think the P’ 'model" is closer to OT/Judaism than CC model.

The experience of Jews who have accepted Christ as the Messiah differ from your view.
You may read these experiences of a few in the book: Honey from the Rock: Sixteen Jews Find the Sweetness of Christ.
amazon.com/Honey-Rock-Sixteen-Sweetness-Christ/dp/1586171151

 

[dawid]

Thank you, I have read it through. How do you reconcile #862 with #819?

There is truth in the separated communities.
When a person in those communities disagrees with that of the Catholic bishops, it is not out of informed malice.

 

[YADA]

Hi Y,

OK .Stand corrected . Thank you.

You are welcome …can you not see that your opinion about the validity of the Septuagint is formed by erroneous information and ideas …like something as basic as the languages found at Qumran? Something very simple that doesn’t require being a Dead Sea scholar? I studied scripture under a Dead Sea scholar in my Masters program - well he was one another g many …and they were an ecumenical group - Catholic, Lutheran and Presbyterian for example.

That you didn’t know the languages found there should give you pause …I would think …

Pax

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,

They also did not have the “magisterium” model/ problem that reformers faced.

Ezra 7:25

“And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which is in your hand, appointmagistrates and judges who may judge all the people in the province Beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God; and those who do not know them, you shall teach.

Judith 6:14
Then the men of Israel came down from their city and found him; and they untied him and brought him into Bethu′lia and placed him before the*magistrates of their city,

Sirach 10:1
A wisemagistratewill educate his people, and the rule of an understanding man will be well ordered.

Sirach 10:2
Like themagistrateof the people, so are his officials; and like the ruler of the city, so are all its inhabitants.

Sirach 41:18
of a transgression, before a judge ormagistrate; and of iniquity, before a congregation or the people; of unjust dealing, before your partner or friend;

Daniel 3:2
Then King Nebuchadnez′zar sent to assemble the satraps, the prefects, and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the justices, the*magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces to come to the dedication of the image which King Nebuchadnez′zar had set up.

Daniel 3:3
Then the satraps, the prefects, and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the justices, the*magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces, were assembled for the dedication of the image that King Nebuchadnez′zar had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnez′zar had set up.

Luke 12:58
As you go with your accuser before themagistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison.

Acts 16:20
and when they had brought them to the magistrates they said, “These men are Jews and they are disturbing our city.

Acts 16:22
The crowd joined in attacking them; and themagistrates tore the garments off them and gave orders to beat them with rods.

Acts 16:35
But when it was day, the*magistrates sent the police, saying, “Let those men go.”

Acts 16:36
And the jailer reported the words to Paul, saying, “The*magistrates have sent to let you go; now therefore come out and go in peace.”

Acts 16:38
The police reported these words to themagistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Roman citizens[/INDENT]

Writ was normative, as much as what was written
I think the P’ 'model" is closer to OT/Judaism than CC model. SS does not reject Church authority.

I think you will have to define what you mean by “normative”, since I think we could definitely say Scripture is a normative rule in the Catholic faith.

When you say SS does not reject Church authority, that is very determined by the individual’s decision to pick and choose who their authority is and it’s boundaries. That is a diminished authority to say the least. The various concepts of Protestantism are extremely broad.

 

[susanlo]

Here are some links to the quotes:

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm

I have been going through these over the past week, but I am having trouble finding one that convinces me that the Deuterocanonical books were referenced. Do you have any good examples to share from these compiled lists?

Here are some of my examples that I do not find convincing:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matthew 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been deceived by the magi, he became furious. He ordered the massacre of all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had ascertained from the magi.
About the Israelites and Egypt - Wisdom 11:7
as a rebuke to the decree for the slaying of infants,
You gave them abundant water beyond their hope,
Is this about the Pharoah of Egypt or King Herod? These were 2 separate, yet similar, historical events.

*Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth. *
I can’t find Tobit 7:18, but similar wording is in Tobit 7:17 and Tobit 10:13. This isn’t real specific for something to quote. Similar sayings are all throughout the Bible.

*Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18. *
Tribulation Luke 21: 24 They **will fall by the edge of the sword **and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles[g] are fulfilled.
Sirach 28:18 Many have fallen by the edge of the sword,
but not as many as by the tongue.
also…
Prophecy - Jeremiah 21:7 …He shall strike them down with the edge of the sword, without quarter, without mercy or compassion.
Couldn’t Jesus have been quoting Jeremiah? Or could he just be using an expression?

*Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers. *
These stories have some similarities, but they are not exactly the same. The New Testament question of the 7 brothers is an attempt by the Sadducees to use this example to trick Jesus and disprove a resurrection. So these Sadducees may have been thinking about Tobit, but Jesus doesn’t say anything about Tobit. Tobit is about a demon killing a woman’s husbands (doesn’t mention anything of brothers). The New Testament question is about 7 brothers marrying a childless wife, but doesn’t mention how the husbands die. It could just be the number 7 that makes these stories similar.

*Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books. *
Matthew 12:42 At the judgment the queen of the south will arise with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and there is something greater than Solomon here.
Did she travel from the ends of the earth to read a deuterocanonical book - or to hear from Solomon’s actual mouth? How do we know what she heard was in the book of Wisdom of Solomon and not from Proverbs?

*John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8. *
“Signs and wonders” is used all throughout the Old Testament: biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NABRE&quicksearch=signs+and+wonders&begin=1&end=46&limit=50

I didn’t go through all of these references yet. I was just wondering if there was a shorter list of references that were too compelling to question.

 

[benhur]

You are welcome …can you not see that your opinion about the validity of the Septuagint is formed by erroneous information and ideas …like something as basic as the languages found at Qumran? Something very simple that doesn’t require being a Dead Sea scholar? I studied scripture under a Dead Sea scholar in my Masters program - well he was one another g many …and they were an ecumenical group - Catholic, Lutheran and Presbyterian for example.

That you didn’t know the languages found there should give you pause …I would think …

Pax

Hi Y,

Yes it gives me pause. I have always believed in LXX. It was only recently that I have read of those doubting some of it , its origins etc. The internet is full of opinions. But yes apparently the LXX was around at Jesus’s time, as I believed earlier. What I did not know was about the scrolls and some of its content, much less any ramifications (of which there is also a plethora of opinion on their historical implication). The posting has been about what Jews read, and the validity of the Apocrypha etc…

But yes, pausing is always good, as is putting yourself in opposing view shoes (and hopefully only for a moment if they be wrong).

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Ezra 7:25

“And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which is in your hand, appointmagistrates and judges who may judge all the people in the province Beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God; and those who do not know them, you shall teach.

Judith 6:14
Then the men of Israel came down from their city and found him; and they untied him and brought him into Bethu′lia and placed him before the*magistrates of their city,

Sirach 10:1
A wisemagistratewill educate his people, and the rule of an understanding man will be well ordered.

Sirach 10:2
Like themagistrateof the people, so are his officials; and like the ruler of the city, so are all its inhabitants.

Sirach 41:18
of a transgression, before a judge ormagistrate; and of iniquity, before a congregation or the people; of unjust dealing, before your partner or friend;

Daniel 3:2
Then King Nebuchadnez′zar sent to assemble the satraps, the prefects, and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the justices, the*magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces to come to the dedication of the image which King Nebuchadnez′zar had set up.

Daniel 3:3
Then the satraps, the prefects, and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the justices, the*magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces, were assembled for the dedication of the image that King Nebuchadnez′zar had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnez′zar had set up.

Luke 12:58
As you go with your accuser before themagistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison.

Acts 16:20
and when they had brought them to the magistrates they said, “These men are Jews and they are disturbing our city.

Acts 16:22
The crowd joined in attacking them; and themagistrates tore the garments off them and gave orders to beat them with rods.

Acts 16:35
But when it was day, the*magistrates sent the police, saying, “Let those men go.”

Acts 16:36
And the jailer reported the words to Paul, saying, “The*magistrates have sent to let you go; now therefore come out and go in peace.”

Acts 16:38
The police reported these words to themagistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Roman citizens[/INDENT]

I think you will have to define what you mean by “normative”, since I think we could definitely say Scripture is a normative rule in the Catholic faith.

When you say SS does not reject Church authority, that is very determined by the individual’s decision to pick and choose who their authority is and it’s boundaries. That is a diminished authority to say the least. The various concepts of Protestantism are extremely broad.

Hi rc,

Again was careful with my words and did not deny authority or governance (in OT) but rather referred to a type , a "model’’ of governance, as faced by reformers.

As far normative, I think writ was more normative, with less "equals’’, in OT. It was to be normative for all-prophets, judges, kings, high priests etc…

SS adherents , to my knowledge , usually only excludes supreme pope. That is the only non-pick. Yet , not sure , but Luther would not mind pope, so long as he (pope) also was subject and not equal to, Writ.

Rc, these are big topics and feel very inadequate in judging my opinions worth on the matters. Just generalizations.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Acts and the writings of the early Church fathers describe how the bishops acted as the Magisterium of the time.

The experience of Jews who have accepted Christ as the Messiah differ from your view.
You may read these experiences of a few in the book: Honey from the Rock: Sixteen Jews Find the Sweetness of Christ.
amazon.com/Honey-Rock-Sixteen-Sweetness-Christ/dp/1586171151

Hi d,

No one denies the office of bishop/presbyter, amongst others.

I wasn’t gonna do this but your statement was very broad and almost seemed exclusive of only converting to CC. They convert to all sorts of Christian sects and even other religions. Many just remain “completed Jews” and do not join any particular denomination.

amazon.com/Surprised-Christ-Journey-Orthodox-Christianity/dp/1888212950
amazon.com/Awakening-Messiah-Supernatural-Discovery-Jewish/dp/0768441943/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473299288&sr=1-6&keywords=jewish+converts+to+christianity

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I have been going through these over the past week, but I am having trouble finding one that convinces me that the Deuterocanonical books were referenced. Do you have any good examples to share from these compiled lists?

Here are some of my examples that I do not find convincing:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matthew 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been deceived by the magi, he became furious. He ordered the massacre of all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had ascertained from the magi.
About the Israelites and Egypt - Wisdom 11:7
as a rebuke to the decree for the slaying of infants,
You gave them abundant water beyond their hope,
Is this about the Pharoah of Egypt or King Herod? These were 2 separate, yet similar, historical events.

*Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth. *
I can’t find Tobit 7:18, but similar wording is in Tobit 7:17 and Tobit 10:13. This isn’t real specific for something to quote. Similar sayings are all throughout the Bible.

*Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18. *
Tribulation Luke 21: 24 They **will fall by the edge of the sword **and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles[g] are fulfilled.
Sirach 28:18 Many have fallen by the edge of the sword,
but not as many as by the tongue.
also…
Prophecy - Jeremiah 21:7 …He shall strike them down with the edge of the sword, without quarter, without mercy or compassion.
Couldn’t Jesus have been quoting Jeremiah? Or could he just be using an expression?

*Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers. *
These stories have some similarities, but they are not exactly the same. The New Testament question of the 7 brothers is an attempt by the Sadducees to use this example to trick Jesus and disprove a resurrection. So these Sadducees may have been thinking about Tobit, but Jesus doesn’t say anything about Tobit. Tobit is about a demon killing a woman’s husbands (doesn’t mention anything of brothers). The New Testament question is about 7 brothers marrying a childless wife, but doesn’t mention how the husbands die. It could just be the number 7 that makes these stories similar.

*Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books. *
Matthew 12:42 At the judgment the queen of the south will arise with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and there is something greater than Solomon here.
Did she travel from the ends of the earth to read a deuterocanonical book - or to hear from Solomon’s actual mouth? How do we know what she heard was in the book of Wisdom of Solomon and not from Proverbs?

*John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8. *
“Signs and wonders” is used all throughout the Old Testament: biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NABRE&quicksearch=signs+and+wonders&begin=1&end=46&limit=50

I didn’t go through all of these references yet. I was just wondering if there was a shorter list of references that were too compelling to question.

Hi s,

Keep up the good work. I have only heard of one reference to extra books and I do not recall if even that was indirect.

Also have heard that if something is referenced in Writ it does not all of a sudden make the source of that very reference “inspired”. I mean "traditions’ are often referenced, and many times negatively. Paul at Mars Hill references Greek belief in his preaching but not as authoritative. The book of Revelations and the seven letters reference some "current history’’ that would be familiar to that particular church(s), yet the source of that "news’ was not authoritative/inspired (like our internet, or the NY Times, or Time magazine of those days). So even if an extra book is referenced does not automatically make that book inspired.

Blessings

 

[dawid]

I wasn’t gonna do this but your statement was very broad and almost seemed exclusive of only converting to CC. They convert to all sorts of Christian sects and even other religions. Many just remain “completed Jews” and do not join any particular denomination.

Hi benhur

Accepting Jesus as the Messiah is a common acknowledgement by Jews.
That was not the point.

The Jews recognise the commonality in liturgy and other features such as recording tradition in the Talmud and Mishna. An example is a rabbi asked a Catholic theologian to present a lecture to his Jewish students. The theologian asked why he didn’t ask the many eminently qualified protestant theologians. The response was that they do things differently to Jews and Catholics (and Orthodox).

 

[dawid]

I have been going through these over the past week, but I am having trouble finding one that convinces me that the Deuterocanonical books were referenced. Do you have any good examples to share from these compiled lists?

I didn’t go through all of these references yet. I was just wondering if there was a shorter list of references that were too compelling to question.

Dear susanlo

I should have placed the second link first - the person dealing with that shares your approach and invites those who’re interested to share their findings with him with the view to produce “a shorter list of references that were too compelling to question”.
“I will follow the same procedure until I have time to sit down with the following references, sort through them, and decide which I can prove to be references are to deutercanonical books. If you find any you think are indisputable, email me, as it will help with the project of producing a shorter list of indisputable references.”

A brief comment on your findings - I believe Wisdom books are not intended as prophetic but share wisdom. The killing of infants is a universal issue and relevant to both instances to which you referred.

I think that the key issue here is that the Deuterocanonical books support the Protocanon.

To throw a curved ball - Peter Abelard’s book Sic et Non lists the apparent contradictions within Scripture and Tradition. His view was that as a lecturer he asked the questions and he expected the students to answer. While atheists love contradictions to disprove “religion”, it’s not as simple as that, hence I used the adjective apparent.
sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/Abelard-SicetNon-Prologue.asp

Regards
dawid