Dear Protestants, if the "Holy Spirit" leads you in interpreting the Bible...

[tabbey48]

Yes, maybe we should deal with our own problems before we condemn others. Thankfully, there aren’t any problems in Protestant Churches because no one sins!

(Just kidding )

The Church isn’t a perfect museum for saints, but it’s a hospital for sinners. If Protestants are allowed to criticize the Church then why shouldn’t we, the Church faithful, be able to question certain Protestant beliefs and practices? I didn’t actually make this thread to start an argument, but to get people thinking, and see different view points. Although there already seems to be a tiny pinch of hostility in this thread which I never initially wanted. (Maybe I’m to blame for that I guess )

God bless you!!! Please know that I am not hostile toward you. I do admit that I feel strongly on this issue. I was a Protestant minister for over 40 years before I came to the Roman Catholic Church. For those years that I was a Protestant Pastor, I was walking in all the light I had. God could have brought me along a lot faster than He did…the Lord’s timing is His business, not mine.

My biggest obstacle to becoming a Catholic was Catholics who wanted to rush me along faster than God wanted. In HIS time, I accepted ALL that the Catholic Church teaches and I remain very loyal to the Holy Father and to the Holy Catholic Church.

Please be kind to others who do not yet believe everything you think is essential. A Catholic with a happy heart will do much more to win souls to Christ than the person who wants to point out the faults of others.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Whatever you want. If you want to abbreviate my name like I abbreviated the word Protestant because I was typing on an iPod keyboard and my fingers were starting to hurt then feel free

Just wondering.

 

[Daegus]

God bless you!!! Please know that I am not hostile toward you. I do admit that I feel strongly on this issue. I was a Protestant minister for over 40 years before I came to the Roman Catholic Church. For those years that I was a Protestant Pastor, I was walking in all the light I had. God could have brought me along a lot faster than He did…the Lord’s timing is His business, not mine.

My biggest obstacle to becoming a Catholic was Catholics who wanted to rush me along faster than God wanted. In HIS time, I accepted ALL that the Catholic Church teaches and I remain very loyal to the Holy Father and to the Holy Catholic Church.

Please be kind to others who do not yet believe everything you think is essential. A Catholic with a happy heart will do much more to win souls to Christ than the person who wants to point out the faults of others.

It’s not that I’m trying to point out the faults of others, but rather the things that I see wrong with what they’re doing. The fault of an adulterer is the fact that he or she commits adultery. This is a sin that CAN be fixed, and can be repented of. The fault of someone with a birth defect like FAS (for example) cannot be fixed, and isn’t [usually] something that can’t be overcome.

What I’m worried about is focusing on the things we can fix, not the things we can’t. A person is too complex to be defined by the things they do or something that is wrong with them, so it might not be appropriate to say we shouldn’t point fingers at others when no fingers are being pointed at others specifically. When Jesus preached, He never condemned the sinners to hell no matter what. There was (and is) always a way out of it, and He condemned the sin that they committed. If Jesus didn’t mind/was indifferent to all sorts of abominations, I don’t think He would have flipped tables or whipped people (?) to get his point across.

One thing that I think is lacking in the Church today is proper standing against sin in general. Too many of our guardians of the faith (Bishops, etc) are being far too docile towards heresy/lies in the Church, which is what would likely cause many of the poorly catechized faithful to leave the Church once they encounter it.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Precisely why the HS cannot be guiding every single person with an infallible interpretation or else there would not be thousands of different denominations. The HS only professes ONE truth,not many or small versions of the truth or half-truths.

This whole thing makes me think of Pontius Pilate asking “What is truth” when its standing right in from him. Even David Currie, a Catholic convert points out, there are levels of truths.

I think he does it something like this

1. The deposit of faith-the faith delivered to the Apostles
2. Church Dogma-church teachings that must be held by all the faithful, affirmed by the ecumenical counsels and the Holy See of Rome
3. Doctrine-the interpretation of dogma, where Catholics are allowed to disagree and do disagree.
4. Disciplines-practices based on dogma and doctrine, that can be changed at any time (ie the discipline of priestly celebacy in the Roman Rite) which guide individual Catholics their daily living
5. Devotions

It seems that even in Catholic thought, there will be diversity in numbers 3 to 5, yet each person with a differing opinion is guided by the Holy Spirit.

My response to the OP is that scripture can be illuminated by means of tradition and reason. I’m not a strict Sola Scripturist myself. Just because some fails to properly apply the method, use tradition and reason when interpreting scripture, does not make the method bad.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Then why is it that there are so many different things that you cannot agree upon amongst yourselves? Surely the HS doesn’t teach multiple truths on the same issue.

There are many Protestant churches. Most of these churches very much avoid saying anything of substance. You go to church, sing a few praise songs, and hear a sermon about how God loves you. All very inoffensive to anyone this side of Atheism. If it’s a Pentecostal church, there will be some charismatic antics. If it’s a Baptist church, they might agree that drinking is bad. If it’s an older Protestant church, like Presbyterian, there might be some doctrine, but few in the Congregation believe it.

Modern churches have doctrinal statements less than a page long. Mostly what you get is individuals choosing their own doctrine, guided only by popular trends.

Their standards of morality tend to be attached to the society that they’re in. So, for example, few Protestants believe, with credibility, that divorce is a sin, because society doesn’t believe divorce is wrong. Women ministers, of course, because society values equality. Protestant churches are beginning to proudly have practicing homosexuals as their preachers, because society is headed to normalizing homosexuals.

The great irony of this is that many Protestants insist on sola scriptura in their objection to Catholicism.

 

[shaky]

There are many Protestant churches. Most of these churches very much avoid saying anything of substance. You go to church, sing a few praise songs, and hear a sermon about how God loves you. All very inoffensive to anyone this side of Atheism. If it’s a Pentecostal church, there will be some charismatic antics. If it’s a Baptist church, they might agree that drinking is bad. If it’s an older Protestant church, like Presbyterian, there might be some doctrine, but few in the Congregation believe it.

Modern churches have doctrinal statements less than a page long. Mostly what you get is individuals choosing their own doctrine, guided only by popular trends.

Their standards of morality tend to be attached to the society that they’re in. So, for example, few Protestants believe, with credibility, that divorce is a sin, because society doesn’t believe divorce is wrong. Women ministers, of course, because society values equality. Protestant churches are beginning to proudly have practicing homosexuals as their preachers, because society is headed to normalizing homosexuals.

The great irony of this is that many Protestants insist on sola scriptura in their objection to Catholicism.

According to 1 John 2:27 When you are led by the holy spirit you do not need anyone to teach you and there is no lie.

What i have noticed about any protestant church. You have to follow what there leaders tell you. How is that following the holy spirit. I believe if you want to know the truth in anything ask God in prayer. Then GOD has got to Answer you truthfully.

 

[Daegus]

According to 1 John 2:27 When you are led by the holy spirit you do not need anyone to teach you and there is no lie.

What i have noticed about any protestant church. You have to follow what there leaders tell you. How is that following the holy spirit. I believe if you want to know the truth in anything ask God in prayer. Then GOD has got to Answer you truthfully.

But again I say… how do we know who’s being led by the HS if 2 of you are non-Church going Christians who believe 2 different things about the same subject? One of you believes abortion is ok, the other doesn’t. Both of you CANNOT be correct, because your views conflict and cannot logically coexist. Neither of you have someone who can speak infallibly on matters of faith and morals, so we can’t know or be sure of who is right.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Circular reasoning helps, too.

 

[rebecca123]

I’ve personally known many protestants who lay their very lives on the line for the name of Christ and His gospel. In other countries than America.

I’ve never known a protestant who thinks abortion or homosexuality is right based on their own “Holy Spirit” guided interpretation of the Bible.

I don’t think God is going to be angry at these protestants because they aren’t following the right set of traditions or all agreeing on minor issues.

I do, on the other hand, also know many Catholics who practice birth control, miss mass, live with their lover (not as brother and sister), and who never go to confession. They also are happy to take communion when they do feel like attending mass.

So, we could ask, are Catholics guided by the Holy Spirit as to which part of the Magiesterium they will follow?

Interpretation of the Holy Scripture shouldn’t be the main concern, but rather why aren’t the people in the true church for the most part following many of the Traditions they hold to be important for salvation. I think Protestants would say that is as confusing for them as their variety and differences are for Catholics.

 

[shaky]

But again I say… how do we know who’s being led by the HS if 2 of you are non-Church going Christians who believe 2 different things about the same subject? One of you believes abortion is ok, the other doesn’t. Both of you CANNOT be correct, because your views conflict and cannot logically coexist. Neither of you have someone who can speak infallibly on matters of faith and morals, so we can’t know or be sure of who is right.

Well God tell me abortion is wrong Period. God would never tell a person to have a Abortion.
To be sure what is right ask God first.

 

[shaky]

I’ve personally known many protestants who lay their very lives on the line for the name of Christ and His gospel. In other countries than America.

I’ve never known a protestant who thinks abortion or homosexuality is right based on their own “Holy Spirit” guided interpretation of the Bible.

I don’t think God is going to be angry at these protestants because they aren’t following the right set of traditions or all agreeing on minor issues.

I do, on the other hand, also know many Catholics who practice birth control, miss mass, live with their lover (not as brother and sister), and who never go to confession. They also are happy to take communion when they do feel like attending mass.

So, we could ask, are Catholics guided by the Holy Spirit as to which part of the Magiesterium they will follow?

Interpretation of the Holy Scripture shouldn’t be the main concern, but rather why aren’t the people in the true church for the most part following many of the Traditions they hold to be important for salvation. I think Protestants would say that is as confusing for them as their variety and differences are for Catholics.

I have not found a protestant church that is the True Church. Lately i have ended up staying away from all there churches. although i still mix with christians. There seems to be allot of christians like that.
I am studying the RC, OO, EO lately.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I’ve personally known many protestants who lay their very lives on the line for the name of Christ and His gospel. In other countries than America.

Amen. Isn’t that the truth.

I’ve never known a protestant who thinks abortion or homosexuality is right based on their own “Holy Spirit” guided interpretation of the Bible.

Are you familiar with what has happened in the Episcopal Church (that is why many left for Rome or Continuing Anglican groups, like myself) or the ELCA? I think you would be disgusted by it.

I don’t think God is going to be angry at these protestants because they aren’t following the right set of traditions or all agreeing on minor issues.

In essentials, unity, in non essentials, charity, in all things, liberty. If they are living that out, then I think God is pleased.

I do, on the other hand, also know many Catholics who practice birth control, miss mass, live with their lover (not as brother and sister), and who never go to confession. They also are happy to take communion when they do feel like attending mass.

Cultural Catholics do exist in large number. Unfortunately, these problems permeate many denominations, not just the Catholic Church. A Baptist minister recently said of his church "we have become the “Roman Catholicism” of the South, meaning in his mind, the SBC had become home to many cultural/ Christmas and Easter Christians in the South. He got a lot of flack for saying that, but I applaud him for being bold enough to say it.

So, we could ask, are Catholics guided by the Holy Spirit as to which part of the Magiesterium they will follow?

Interpretation of the Holy Scripture shouldn’t be the main concern, but rather why aren’t the people in the true church for the most part following many of the Traditions they hold to be important for salvation. I think Protestants would say that is as confusing for them as their variety and differences are for Catholics.

Obviously when any Christian makes a decision outside the will of God, its not guided by the Holy Spirit. Its guided by the flesh. I do agree that each of us, no matter what church we are a part of, need to examine ourselves and work out our own salvation before God. Its about removing the plank from our own eye first. I mean who are we to judge someone else’s servent?

 

[Gingersnaps4]

I think that the Catholic church is the oldest/first church and the teachings are the most intact. However the people belonging to the churches are all about the same (imperfect) and someone that is Catholic isnt automatically more likely to go to heaven. I would say most Christians that are devoted to their faith think that abortion, etc is wrong. Anyone who thinks it’s right wasn’t led to that decision by the HS.

Believe it or not there are still conservative Episcopalian/Anglican churches that do not agree with all of the liberal hogwash. Abortion is wrong, euthanasia is wrong and homosexuality is wrong. Probably no one in my church would say that it’s ok so it’s very annoying when people throw a blanket over all episcopalians. I have been very surprised, shocked almost, to see all of the EP church/Anglican hatred and contempt here in these forums. My church is a very Catholic friendly and our teachings are more catholic than Protestant and none of the Catholics I know look down on my church or think they are better than me. So I found this place thinking I may fit in, lol.

All of that being said, I don’t like the direction the EP/anglican church is going in, even though it isn’t affecting my Parrish directly. I would love to find a CACNA church near me but I don’t think there are any.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

I think that the Catholic church is the oldest/first church and the teachings are the most intact. However the people belonging to the churches are all about the same (imperfect) and someone that is Catholic isnt automatically more likely to go to heaven. I would say most Christians that are devoted to their faith think that abortion, etc is wrong. Anyone who thinks it’s right wasn’t led to that decision by the HS.

Believe it or not there are still conservative Episcopalian/Anglican churches that do not agree with all of the liberal hogwash. Abortion is wrong, euthanasia is wrong and homosexuality is wrong. Probably no one in my church would say that it’s ok so it’s very annoying when people throw a blanket over all episcopalians. I have been very surprised, shocked almost, to see all of the EP church/Anglican hatred and contempt here in these forums. My church is a very Catholic friendly and our teachings are more catholic than Protestant and none of the Catholics I know look down on my church or think they are better than me. So I found this place thinking I may fit in, lol.

All of that being said, I don’t like the direction the EP/anglican church is going in, even though it isn’t affecting my Parrish directly. I would love to find a CACNA church near me but I don’t think there are any.

I’m not surprised at the condescension and goofy internets-style hatorade.

How about the Anglican Church in North America?

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Reservoir Dog, i will check and see if the AC of N. America is in my area. We are looking for a conservative Anglo-catholic church. But where we live there seem to be limited choices depending on your denomination. For example there only 2-3 catholic churches in the whole city, but meanwhile there are baptist and Methodist churches on every street.

I would like to add that I believe that most biblical translation within the Anglican churches to be quite literal and not based on how the HS directs us. Yes, for some reason the EP church has gone crazy with the social issues but most other things are taken literally. This is why we tend to be lumped together with the Catholic church by Protestant denominations like Baptists, etc. In my real life experience it is these groups saying that Catholics and Anglicans are “wrong” and are heathens for praying for the dead, baptizing babies, acknowledging saints, etc. In the South at least this is the perspective a lot. My husband was actually told (by a co-worker!) that he was going to hell for being baptized as a baby and not being “saved”. I think that’s why I was so surprised to come here and see that Catholics don’t seem to like us either

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

… I think that’s why I was so surprised to come here and see that Catholics don’t seem to like us either

I don’t have a good answer for that. My experience in real life has been much different, fortunately. The internets bring out the worst in pettiness.

The ACNA is the kind of traditional church you’re probably looking for. Good luck in your search.

 

[tabbey48]

I’ve personally known many protestants who lay their very lives on the line for the name of Christ and His gospel. In other countries than America.

I’ve never known a protestant who thinks abortion or homosexuality is right based on their own “Holy Spirit” guided interpretation of the Bible.

I don’t think God is going to be angry at these protestants because they aren’t following the right set of traditions or all agreeing on minor issues.

I do, on the other hand, also know many Catholics who practice birth control, miss mass, live with their lover (not as brother and sister), and who never go to confession. They also are happy to take communion when they do feel like attending mass.

So, we could ask, are Catholics guided by the Holy Spirit as to which part of the Magiesterium they will follow?

Interpretation of the Holy Scripture shouldn’t be the main concern, but rather why aren’t the people in the true church for the most part following many of the Traditions they hold to be important for salvation. I think Protestants would say that is as confusing for them as their variety and differences are for Catholics.

Well said!!! Protestants see in the Catholic Church the same problems that Catholics see in the Protestant Churches. The sad thing is that none of us seem to honestly acknowledge the problems in our own group.

I know many good and holy Protestants, just as I also know many good and holy Catholics. I also know many in both groups whose lives seem to be a contradiction. I choose to enjoy the fellowship of the “good and holy,” wherever I find them.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I’ve personally known many protestants who lay their very lives on the line for the name of Christ and His gospel. In other countries than America.

I’ve never known a protestant who thinks abortion or homosexuality is right based on their own “Holy Spirit” guided interpretation of the Bible.

I don’t think God is going to be angry at these protestants because they aren’t following the right set of traditions or all agreeing on minor issues.

I do, on the other hand, also know many Catholics who practice birth control, miss mass, live with their lover (not as brother and sister), and who never go to confession. They also are happy to take communion when they do feel like attending mass.

So, we could ask, are Catholics guided by the Holy Spirit as to which part of the Magiesterium they will follow?

Interpretation of the Holy Scripture shouldn’t be the main concern, but rather why aren’t the people in the true church for the most part following many of the Traditions they hold to be important for salvation. I think Protestants would say that is as confusing for them as their variety and differences are for Catholics.

This is a good thread and Rebecca’s post is a good thought-provoking post. So, I will take it from here and add some of my observations.

I listen to various “Christian” (I guess, Protestant and non-denominational) radio stations a lot, and I have a great respect for the overwhelming majority of these folks. For example, there’s Michael Card, who is associated with a ministry called “The Voice of the Martyrs”. They are absolutely hard-core, because they bring the Gospel to places like Vietnam, China, and even North Korea! Now, anyone who is familiar with the North Korean situation, knows that if you are caught with a Bible in North Korea, you will probably end up secretly arrested, sentenced to death, and executed. At least in Saudi Arabia you would have a chance that the Western world would manage to influence the Saudi rulers to spare your life. But not so, in North Korea. So, whoever these folks are (Protestants? non-denom?) at the Voice of the Martyrs, my hat goes off to them.

When I started to get more serious about religion during the 1990s, I met some very dedicated Christians. They were not Catholics (I am a cradle Catholic), but they were clearly good people who cared about learning God’s truth. One of these folks happened to be a Nazarene, who was a conscientious objector to serving in the armed forces (in a European country where military service was compulsory). Later, I met a Jehovah’s Witness. Now, I learned that JW are not considered Christians, because they do not baptize with the valid Trinitarian formula, but this doesn’t change the fact that my JW friend was an extremely learned Bible scholar, and he was genuinely committed to following and obeying God as he knew it. The JW also refuse to serve in the army. Both the Nazarenes and the JW take their clue from Jesus’ refusal to defend himself, and his rebuke of Peter, who used his sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. And I was greatly troubled, because the Catholic Church and the major Protestant denomination in that area (Hungary) - the Calvinist Reformed Church - teach the doctrine of just war, while the Nazarenes and JW say that waging war is always a sin. This was my first taste of what this thread is about. Obviously, the Holy Spirit cannot lead all these Churches at the same time, since two of them believe that war can be sometimes justified, and the other two believe that war is never justified.

At the end of the day, I chose to believe that the Holy Spirit leads the Bishops in union with Peter’s successor the Pope, that is the Catholic Church. And I don’t feel disturbed, at least as the search for TRUTH goes, about the fact that many Catholics dissent and disobey. If I want to find the TRUTH, and infallible doctrine, I only need to ask, what does the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him, teach about this issue? If they say that artificial birth control is immoral, I know the TRUTH, and the case is closed, as far as I’m concerned. It doesn’t matter one iota if the majority, or even a vast majority, of Catholic people disobey this teaching. The TRUTH is the TRUTH is the TRUTH. It’s as simple as that. In Noah’s time, the vast majority of people rejected God, and they all perished with the flood. But just as then salvation was to be found in Noah’s Ark, today salvation is to be found in Peter’s Ark. Those who refuse to enter Peter’s Ark, risk being swept away by the flood. I pray that all people will find Peter’s Ark, and that they will enter it and they be saved for eternal life!

Edit: By entering Peter’s Ark, I do not mean simply being baptized in the Catholic Church. I mean, being a member of the Catholic Church AND obeying all its teachings, including the difficult-to-obey teachings on sexual morality (such as no fornication, no artificial birth control).

 

[tabbey48]

While the Catholic Church does not grant the title “true particular Church” to Protestant denominations, it recognizes the possibility of salvation for Protestants, and the good work that Protestants do for the Lord. The Catholic Catechism says:
“…many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” (CCC 819)

Also from the Catechism:
Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”(CCC 1271)

You may ask, “but don’t Catholics consider Protestants heretics?” In a sense, the answer is yes. Most Protestants are, from a Catholic perspective, material heretics, meaning objectively, yes Protestants hold to many incorrect beliefs. In fairness, most Protestants would say the same thing about Catholics, because Protestants also recognize that they share fundamental disagreements with Catholics. However, are most Protestants formal heretics? A formal heretic rejects Catholic teaching absolutely, with full deliberation and full knowledge of this rejection. Most Protestants probably do not hold their beliefs as a rejection of Catholic Teaching, willfully rejecting Catholic Teaching with full knowledge. Some Protestants do seem to believe what they do as a willful rejection of Catholic Teaching. However, these Protestants who specifically reject Catholic Teaching may do so because of mitigating factors, e.g. ignorance of actual Catholic Teaching, false prejudice, an anti-Catholic upbringing, scandalous behavior of Catholic relatives, etc, and not because they willfully and fully reject Catholic Teaching. Because of the nuanced Catholic view of Protestants described above, many Catholics have ceased using the term “heretic” to refer to Protestants, and prefer using the term “separated brethren,” because while Protestants are our brothers and sisters through baptism, they are separated from the Church for a variety of reasons, including holding beliefs contrary to Catholic Teaching.

For more: ancient-future.net/prots.html

 

[JonNC]

=Daegus;7339548]It’s unfortunate that the Orthodox can’t claim infallibility because they have no single, authorative head to speak for them whereas we do so we cn truly be sure of leadership.

That’s why the early Church depended on councils.

However, I think it would be fair to say that it is possible for their Church to be led by the Holy Spirit, considering the Orthodox doesn’t really old any practice that the Roman Church doesn’t accept.

Perhaps not, but I think they would say that the CC has “innovated” from there.

History is also on the side of our Church, seeing as how the Orthodox Churh wasn’t really anything until the great schism of 1054.

Pope John Paul II referred to the “two lungs”. I suspect he (and they) would not view Orthodoxy as not “really anything until the Great Schism”.

But regardless of all of that, the fact is there are (at least) two Churches that claim Tradition and Scripture, and yet they do not agree, at least not enough to be in full communion for a thousand years.

Jon