P
pete_29
Guest
Don’t call before 9 AM.
- Status
4
4elise
Guest
On the video of the original post it is difficult to watch for me because I just don’t want an animal to suffer and die for my food - if the cow knows what is coming or not since I don’t need to consume it to live.
My reasons for choosing a plant based diet is however larger than animal suffering - but not to minimize this issue too -
If I can survive without an animal having to be killed, it just makes sense to me.
We do just fine on a plant based diet, as many do many people.
And while many talk about how they feel more healthy physically - I have to admit there is also something cleansing about removing the killing from my life too. I never had to do it myself, and perhaps this is why I don’t have the detachment that some seem to - and why the video is so strong for me
*(By the way - didn’t watch the second video Marfran posted - when someone notes that there is a warning regarding graphic content - that is all I need to avoid it - not that curious- so I thank Marfran’s for the warning!) *
My reasons for choosing a plant based diet is however larger than animal suffering - but not to minimize this issue too -
If I can survive without an animal having to be killed, it just makes sense to me.
We do just fine on a plant based diet, as many do many people.
And while many talk about how they feel more healthy physically - I have to admit there is also something cleansing about removing the killing from my life too. I never had to do it myself, and perhaps this is why I don’t have the detachment that some seem to - and why the video is so strong for me
*(By the way - didn’t watch the second video Marfran posted - when someone notes that there is a warning regarding graphic content - that is all I need to avoid it - not that curious- so I thank Marfran’s for the warning!) *
Man is unique. We have a brain that allows us to design the tools we need.
Perhaps some would be more comfortable if we didn’t use our brains.
4
4elise
Guest
My brain has led me to make a connection between what I eat and my faith. Today, in the United States, the way the vast majority of animals that are raised for food are raised in CAFO environments (ucsusa.org/news/press_release/cafo-costs-report-0113.html)Man is unique. We have a brain that allows us to design the tools we need.
Perhaps some would be more comfortable if we didn’t use our brains.
As I learned about this I recognized that the damage to the environment is so great that by eliminating meat from my own diet I could make a contribution. By encouraging others to consider this choice, perhaps we could spread this idea that Catholics, aware that we are called to be stewards of the world that God has entrusted to us, can make an individual choice that both recognizes this and acts upon it.
Peace
And apparently the cat’s too.
This is the kind of behavior one can expect when people quit using their brains and instead use their emotions.
This call I have read several times to watch the video ‘with your heart’ is nothing more then a call to emotionalism.
M
Marfran
Guest
I do not ask that you watch the video “with your heart,” but rather that you take notice of your heart’s reaction. Does watching the video excite you? Make you uncomfortable? Do you feel empathy or mercy for this animal? Do you feel nothing? How you react personally is then for you to decide how this will affect your actions or choices, or if you can dismiss what you saw and walk away.
If you can dismiss the video, if you feel nothing at seeing it, I would imagine that you would not even take the time to post in this thread. “Feeling nothing” should make it quite easy to walk away from this thread. So what has you coming back, for repeated looks?
Men often accuse women of emotionalism when they do not know how to communicate with them–when they fail to control the woman or her dialog–they cry “emotionalism.”
D
Drawmack
Guest
Yeah, I really didn’t care about the video one way or the other.
What keeps me coming back is this, I desire to defend myself. The entire premise of this thread is people who eat meat are morally and ethically below those who do not eat meat. This is completely fallacious and is a personal attack against anyone who eats meat. If you don’t want to eat meat, no one should make you feel guilty for that and no one should even attempt to impose guilt on you. If you do want to eat mat, no one should make you feel guilty for that and no one should even attempt to impose guilt on you for that.
4
4elise
Guest
**Have you ever learned something that you think is important and you want to share that with others? **
I don’t believe anyone on this thread (oh, wait - I should only speak for myself) -…
I don’t judge anyone who has chosen to eliminate meat from their diet as moral superior.
I don’t judge anyone who chooses to continue to eat meat as morally inferior.
When I’ve learned about this topic it has become important to me, (resonates with my faith) and I want to share this with others, especially with others with whom I share this beautiful common bond of faith.
I think we can all sound judgmental (on both sides of this point, i.e. what is the matter with you - why don’t you feel like I do? / what is the matter with you - why do you put so much importance on this?)
I believe it is important - and keep coming back to try to share what I’ve learned. I think the original post was also trying to share why this is important because it touched her heart - and invited others to consider the possibility…
So… here I share something so beautiful I found today that I think is relevant:
*
“The brutal consumption of creation begins where God is not, where matter is henceforth only material for us, where we ourselves are the ultimate demand, where the whole is merely our property and we consume it for ourselves alone … I think, therefore, that true and effective initiatives to prevent the waste and destruction of creation can be implemented and developed, understood and lived, only where creation is considered as beginning with God.”*
—Pope Benedict XVI, August 2008
D
Drawmack
Guest
**Have you ever learned something that you think is important and you want to share that with others? **
I don’t believe anyone on this thread (oh, wait - I should only speak for myself) -…
I don’t judge anyone who has chosen to eliminate meat from their diet as moral superior.
I don’t judge anyone who chooses to continue to eat meat as morally inferior.
When I’ve learned about this topic it has become important to me, (resonates with my faith) and I want to share this with others, especially with others with whom I share this beautiful common bond of faith.
I think we can all sound judgmental (on both sides of this point, i.e. what is the matter with you - why don’t you feel like I do? / what is the matter with you - why do you put so much importance on this?)
I believe it is important - and keep coming back to try to share what I’ve learned. I think the original post was also trying to share why this is important because it touched her heart - and invited others to consider the possibility…
So… here I share something so beautiful I found today that I think is relevant:
*
“The brutal consumption of creation begins where God is not, where matter is henceforth only material for us, where we ourselves are the ultimate demand, where the whole is merely our property and we consume it for ourselves alone … I think, therefore, that true and effective initiatives to prevent the waste and destruction of creation can be implemented and developed, understood and lived, only where creation is considered as beginning with God.”*
—Pope Benedict XVI, August 2008
A clear statement that those who eat meat are being disrespectful of God’s creation. What was you’re reaction to this 4elise?
So, 4elise you think that I am being disrespectful to God’s creation and I’m not supposed to interpret this as you saying that those who do not eat meat are morally superior?
What about when people post in support of uncharitable statements, as I showed you doing above?
And what kind of an impact does this have on the people working in the industry, besides making it so they can keep a roof over their heads and feed their family. Would you be implying there is a negative moral impact on people simply by working in this industry? If there is a negative moral impact on those who work in this industry, and I continue to consume the product of that industry, doesn’t that say that I am not loving my neighbor?
SuzzySunshine:
So, anyone who isn’t moved by this video is in possession of a diseased, closed, darkened heart. This is a horrible thing for one person to say about another person. Let’s now look at how strongly 4elise condemned this attack on me and those like me.
[/quote]
Very charitable 4elise, thank you for not implying that you’re of a higher moral caliber than I am.
And this 4elise is just from the first two pages of this thread. So take your hypocrisy elsewhere, I don’t need it.
So now you wish to accuse me of crying ‘emotionalism’
Sorry, but emotionalism is what you end up with when you don’t use your brain.
And that is indeed what you are asking of people…
I bolded the part in case it was missed.
Whenever I am asked not to think about it, alarm bells are raised.
In this case, rightly so.
The videos are very deceptive.
If you wish to know what I feel with these videos, it is anger. Not anger over what is being done in the video, but anger at the producer of the video. There is an attempt to deceive me.
4
4elise
Guest
Drawmack - when I first read this my first reaction was to come back with a kind of immature ‘naa-uh’ - argue each point you made trying to clarify how I wasn’t trying to come across morally superior or casting judgment on you for eating meat.
But than I thought I ought to sit with this a while -
First, I want you to know that it is only in the last several years that I learned about CAFOs and the environmental damage that is a result that has drawn me to make a commitment to ‘go vegan’ - before that I was as much a carnivore as anyone
Second, I have family members, and a couple adult children who do not make this choice - they eat meat, I love them, and I do not judge them to be morally inferior.
You had noted in a previous post that no one should make another feel guilty for their choice to either eat meat or not eat meat. I think that this is ‘in the eye of the beholder’ - I shouldn’t be able to make anyone feel guilty - that is a personal reaction.
I can agree that not eating meat is a better choice for God’s creation - then one who doesn’t make that choice might hear *“then you are saying I don’t care about God’s creation?” *
I can agree that it lines up with someone’s faith - because it does for mine - then one who doesn’t agree might hear 'then you are saying my faith isn’t as good as yours?"
So for clarity what I am saying is I chose not to eat meat because of what I’ve learned about how meat, dairy, eggs are produced in the US, and giving it up resonates with my understanding of my Catholic faith.
Because you are also Catholic (and this is a Catholic forum) I may try to “persuade” you to see where I’ve seen this connection, but not in judgment if you do or don’t - that is up to you.
I hope we can disagree and not judge each other,
R
redhen
Guest
Without malice
Not so, I have responded to your statements, so have others.
If you can’t entertain a thought experiment in your head, then you won’t go far in philosophical matters.
No, people have used all three types of argument here; ethos, pathos and logos. No one has personified or anthropomorphized any animal on this thread.
Well, when you write that someone’s statement is stupid, you’re implying that they are stupid. That’s an ad hominem. This post is** not about you**. It’s about the ethical right to raise animals in factory farms and slaughter them.
See, there you go again, telling me to STFU. If you are not going to follow the constitutive rules of argumentation, then this whole dialogue is pointless. Are you really trying to seek truth, or are you merely engaging in rhetoric?
You assume too much. I eat meat, when it is offered. This is not about moral superiority. This is not some kind of moral pissing match. It’s about awareness of factory farming and abattoir conditions. It’s about asking ethical questions. That’s why videos like this one keep getting posted. No one is looking down on meat eaters as morally or ethically inferior. Think of it as different levels of awareness, just like there are people at different levels of Christian faith.
4
4elise
Guest
Recognizing that this is not discussing the consumption of meat - and recognizing that the Holy Father is not speaking ex-cathedra - to preempt the arguments that might come…
I just wanted to post this because I think it is so beautiful!
“The brutal consumption of creation begins where God is not, where matter is henceforth only material for us, where we ourselves are the ultimate demand, where the whole is merely our property and we consume it for ourselves alone … I think, therefore, that true and effective initiatives to prevent the waste and destruction of creation can be implemented and developed, understood and lived, only where creation is considered as beginning with God.”
—Pope Benedict XVI, August 2008
I just wanted to post this because I think it is so beautiful!
“The brutal consumption of creation begins where God is not, where matter is henceforth only material for us, where we ourselves are the ultimate demand, where the whole is merely our property and we consume it for ourselves alone … I think, therefore, that true and effective initiatives to prevent the waste and destruction of creation can be implemented and developed, understood and lived, only where creation is considered as beginning with God.”
—Pope Benedict XVI, August 2008
S
Snerticus
Guest
Good question, and I’ll never know the answer. This happened many years ago. I can only suppose that she loved to be around animals and couldn’t cuddle a goat or something. But you’re right, why keep a cat if you have problems with feeding it a meat based diet?
M
Marfran
Guest
I totally agree with you on this.Good question, and I’ll never know the answer. This happened many years ago. I can only suppose that she loved to be around animals and couldn’t cuddle a goat or something. But you’re right, why keep a cat if you have problems with feeding it a meat based diet?
C
chain
Guest
You ask if I feel pain. Killing never makes one feel good inside. But it does teach one the cost and value of life.
I grew up with a full understanding of where my food came from - My Father. We were also well aware it was only there from the grace of Our Father. I bottle fed calves when I was 6 (occasionally a Heifer will not let her calf suck), but we always knew these were the animals that fed and clothed us. The Easter pig - I went through that when I was 9, but with a sheep.I don’t actively ranch at the moment (others do that). But I still process at least some of my families meat - my favorite (and my daughter’s) is sausage day. Most of the families I make sausage with have 3 generations working together. Sausage day usually starts with a couple pigs, and ends with some of the finest smoked sausage I have ever tasted. We also make head sausage (my daughters favorite job). Since the heads are boiled, you can snack as you work.
D
Drawmack
Guest
I’ll keep this short and simple. You applaud when someone else says that I have a diseased, closed, and darkened heart – you have said that you agree that my heart is diseased, closed, and darkened – you have said this person is worthy of praise for saying those things about my heart. To come back latter and say you’re not being judgmental, to come back latter and try to make nice is hypocrisy. It’s that simple.Drawmack - when I first read this my first reaction was to come back with a kind of immature ‘naa-uh’ - argue each point you made trying to clarify how I wasn’t trying to come across morally superior or casting judgment on you for eating meat.
But than I thought I ought to sit with this a while -
First, I want you to know that it is only in the last several years that I learned about CAFOs and the environmental damage that is a result that has drawn me to make a commitment to ‘go vegan’ - before that I was as much a carnivore as anyone
Second, I have family members, and a couple adult children who do not make this choice - they eat meat, I love them, and I do not judge them to be morally inferior.
You had noted in a previous post that no one should make another feel guilty for their choice to either eat meat or not eat meat. I think that this is ‘in the eye of the beholder’ - I shouldn’t be able to make anyone feel guilty - that is a personal reaction.
I can agree that not eating meat is a better choice for God’s creation - then one who doesn’t make that choice might hear *“then you are saying I don’t care about God’s creation?” *
I can agree that it lines up with someone’s faith - because it does for mine - then one who doesn’t agree might hear 'then you are saying my faith isn’t as good as yours?"
So for clarity what I am saying is I chose not to eat meat because of what I’ve learned about how meat, dairy, eggs are produced in the US, and giving it up resonates with my understanding of my Catholic faith.
Because you are also Catholic (and this is a Catholic forum) I may try to “persuade” you to see where I’ve seen this connection, but not in judgment if you do or don’t - that is up to you.
I hope we can disagree and not judge each other,
And, you didn’t even apologize or explain why you felt it appropriate to applaud someone else saying those horrible things.
D
Drawmack
Guest
Flat out untruth. Claiming that a cow is affraid it’s going to die is a personification of that cow. Period!
Not true. I say stupid things all the time, it doesn’t mean that I’m stupid, it means that I spoke without engaging my brain. Which I do quite a bit.
I was asked why I was testy, I answered, you are telling me that my answer is rhetoric, who isn’t following the constitutive rules of argumentation?
R
redhen
Guest
Animals have emotions, fear is one of them. This is an indisputable fact.
Granted.
The first constitutive rule of argumentation is the truth seeking principle. That means you are “committed to searching for the truth or the most rationally defensible position about the issues… violation of this subverts the very purpose of argumentation.” Saindon, J. (2008). Argument and argumentation, Toronto: Thomson Nelson.
The respect principle should go without saying. Telling people to STFU is a clear violation. I wonder if the mods here realize what the acronym STFU means?
The argument principle can entail two arguers that tentatively agree “for the sake of argument” to some proposition. For example, my analogy of aliens harvesting humans for food, which you dismissed out of hand.
The fallibility principle means that both arguers acknowledge that they could be wrong. “Believing that certain claims are beyond proof or disproof and that evidence is irrelevant would violate this principle.” Saindon (2008)
I admit that I could be wrong. Perhaps it is ethically right to treat other species in any manner we like, for whatever reason. I have yet to see any sound reasons to believe so yet.
D
Drawmack
Guest
- Status