Death, Lies, & Videotape

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Marfran said:
This statement is NOT TRUE. Humans were not designed to eat meat–don’t have the teeth, claws, talons, stomach enzymes (meat needs to be cooked to kill viruses and bacteria), correct intestines for it, etc. I think we’ve covered this in previous posts. Eating meat an instinct??? Not for humans–not even close to an instinct–for carnivorous animals, yes. Try looking up the HISTORY of human meat eating. Meat eating came about as a strategy for humans to survive in harsh climates. And before man could be successful at it, he had to invent some tools to make it easier to hunt and kill his prey–(something he can’t do with his bare, tool-less hands) and learn to utilize fire.
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Yes, we did cover this in a previous post. I told you that man must cook meat because he has been cooking meat for so long that his body can no longer process uncooked meat, that ability has been evolved out of us. We still have some of the proof in our anatomy though like the appendix.

I also told you how I completely prepared and consumed a rabbit last time I was camping with no other tools that a rock and I point out how other animals use tools to catch their food.

You never responded to any of those point, dig up that post and actually respond to those points or drop it – I really don’t care which.
 
Drawmack said:
Why my argument rests on is that other animals are not cognizant in the way that humans are.
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And why would another being have to be cognizant like you, to be entitled to live free of suffering, pain, and pre-mature violent death? The unborn human baby is not cognizant like you, nor is your brother who is in a coma. And redhen’s aliens–what if they have superior cognizance to you? What if they are even *smarter *than you?? Does their desire to eat your flesh give them the right to deprieve you of your life? Your life is important to you, as all creature’s lives are to them–whether they can elloquently verbalize this concept or not.
 
Drawmack said:
Yes, we did cover this in a previous post. I told you that man must cook meat because he has been cooking meat for so long that his body can no longer process uncooked meat, that ability has been evolved out of us.
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And that is NOT TRUE. Please provide the scientific evidence, from professional literature, that states that at one tiime in history man was capable of digesting uncooked meat without the risk of contracting illness from virus or bacteria in the meat. YOU MADE THAT UP.
 
Drawmack said:
I also told you how I completely prepared and consumed a rabbit last time I was camping with no other tools that a rock and I point out how other animals use tools to catch their food.
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AND if eating meat is INSTINCTUAL, as you say, then ALL HUMANS would possess this instinct, and any human lost in the woods would also be able to do as you did–and no one lost in the woods without tools should ever be concerned about being able to capture, kill, and eat their meat with frequency to survive. IF INSTINCTUAL–no one would need to be taught or need to take a course in *survival in the woods * to be able to utilize said INSTINCTS.
 
“Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the ‘six days’ it is said: ‘And God saw that it was good.’ ‘By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth and excellence, its own order and laws.’ Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God’s infinite wisdom and goodness.”
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 5, 2:339

“The beauty of creation reflects the infinite beauty of the Creator and ought to inspire the respect and submission of man’s intellect and will.”
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 5, 2:341
 
Marfran said:
This is a documentary produced by HSUS concerning the Christain perspective on factory farming. Please view this video. I will be starting another discussion using the video. This video was brought to my attention by a member of Catholic Concern for Animals. There is a Catholic nun featured on a portion of this video (midway thru).

video.hsus.org/?fr_story=fddfc1d63c358bb2db36b53597ceeb7b724f5771&rf=bm
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marfran this didn’t open the link I think you wanted…
 
4elise said:
marfran this didn’t open the link I think you wanted…
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??? It does on my computer. It is a documentary on the HSUS web site called Eating Mercifully. It is a Christian perpective on factory farming. Is that where it takes you to, 4elise? It opens with a reporter asking a kid with glasses Where do you think your meat comes from?
 
Marfran said:
??? It does on my computer. It is a documentary on the HSUS web site called Eating Mercifully. It is a Christian perpective on factory farming. Is that where it takes you to, 4elise? It opens with a reporter asking a kid with glasses Where do you think your meat comes from?
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For me it opens to a Video about a puppy mill raid
 
Marfran said:
And why would another being have to be cognizant like you, to be entitled to live free of suffering, pain, and pre-mature violent death? The unborn human baby is not cognizant like you, nor is your brother who is in a coma. And redhen’s aliens–what if they have superior cognizance to you? What if they are even *smarter *than you?? Does their desire to eat your flesh give them the right to deprieve you of your life? Your life is important to you, as all creature’s lives are to them–whether they can elloquently verbalize this concept or not.
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They do not suffer and they do not have pain inflicted upon them. Pre-mature death I will give to you.

You are correct that an unborn human is not cognizant the way I am and neither is someone in a coma (I don’t have a brother in a coma). However the unborn human and the person in a coma are capable of my level cognizance while the animals we keep for food are not.

As for the aliens, it doesn’t matter if they are capable of more or different or better whatever cognizance than a human. The point I am making is that a being capable of human like, or beyond, cognizance shouldn’t be held for food. However, we also shouldn’t personify our level of cognizance on other animals through personification.
 
Marfran said:
And that is NOT TRUE. Please provide the scientific evidence, from professional literature, that states that at one tiime in history man was capable of digesting uncooked meat without the risk of contracting illness from virus or bacteria in the meat. YOU MADE THAT UP.
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Nope, you made up the stuff you’re saying – don’t ask me for references until you provide your own. Go read up on what the appendix was for when it actually served a purpose. Which you’ll find in medical literature.
 
Marfran said:
AND if eating meat is INSTINCTUAL, as you say, then ALL HUMANS would possess this instinct, and any human lost in the woods would also be able to do as you did–and no one lost in the woods without tools should ever be concerned about being able to capture, kill, and eat their meat with frequency to survive. IF INSTINCTUAL–no one would need to be taught or need to take a course in *survival in the woods * to be able to utilize said INSTINCTS.
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Ummmm, first time I did that I was about 8, I was playing in the woods, and I was hungry so I caught my own lunch.
 
Marfran said:
“Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the ‘six days’ it is said: ‘And God saw that it was good.’ ‘By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth and excellence, its own order and laws.’ Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God’s infinite wisdom and goodness.”
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 5, 2:339

“The beauty of creation reflects the infinite beauty of the Creator and ought to inspire the respect and submission of man’s intellect and will.”
—from Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part One, Section Two, Chapter One, Article 1, Paragraph 5, 2:341
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The Catholic Church does not teach vegetarianism. You are misapplying the teachings of the Church. I would like you to be aware that things like this are the reason I’m not Catholic.
 
redhen said:
No, as Charlton Heston proclaimed; Soylent Green is people! I was referencing how we treat other species not our own. Hence the alien analogy. If these alien invaders were carnivores, then according to your appeal to nature, they would have the ethical right to raise and slaughter humans for food, since it is natural for them to eat meat. This is not a red herring, it is pertinent to this discussion.
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Nope. Red Herring.
You are making an assumption of the justification for eating meat.
Your premise is false, and your argument is a red herring.
 
Marfran said:
This statement is NOT TRUE. Humans were not designed to eat meat–don’t have the teeth, claws, talons, stomach enzymes (meat needs to be cooked to kill viruses and bacteria), correct intestines for it, etc.
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Then I guess it is a good thing that man was equipped with the brain for it.

You want to talk about teeth, claws, intestines, etc…
Why not mention the brain.

It alone has proven to be the most efficient hunting tool on the planet.
And we come naturally equipped with it.
 
vz71 said:
Then I guess it is a good thing that man was equipped with the brain for it.

You want to talk about teeth, claws, intestines, etc…
Why not mention the brain.

It alone has proven to be the most efficient hunting tool on the planet.
And we come naturally equipped with it.
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I am always a bit confused when the discussions on the topic of vegetarianism goes in this direction.

What the original post had was a video of a cow (hardly something that needs to be hunted) in a stall - apparently trying to escape - and apparently ultimately being killed.
Where the difference appears to be is that for some the idea that the cow might be experiencing fear / anxiety as it awaits it’s death - for some this re-confirms the desire to be out of this loop of death for diet.

Others defend the fear / anxiety / death on the basis of we need meat to live, we were made this way, Jesus ate meat, we have a brain so we can hunt…

Those of us who have made a choice to be out of the loop are accused of judging those who continue to eat meat even when it is a discussion of the value we find for ourselves - Does anyone else - who chooses not to eat meat feel judged in these discussions?

My brain leads me to conclude that I can survive quite well without meat, dairy and eggs. I have no underlying health condition that makes it a problem, in fact I am actually healthier having gone vegan. Therefore I can remove myself from this loop and because the choice resonates with my faith - and CAF has been a great place to discuss this choice in light of faith. Our group, Catholic Vegetarians and Vegans has grown as people who have lived this way a long time, and others just exploring the options, share and support each other.

‘Out here’ in the general forums we can share our reasons, offer information to others and possibly encourage others to consider the possibility that a change of diet - today, as meat is produced today, is a choice that they also may be interested in considering. 🙂
 
4elise said:
I am always a bit confused when the discussions on the topic of vegetarianism goes in this direction.

What the original post had was a video of a cow (hardly something that needs to be hunted) in a stall - apparently trying to escape - and apparently ultimately being killed.
Where the difference appears to be is that for some the idea that the cow might be experiencing fear / anxiety as it awaits it’s death - for some this re-confirms the desire to be out of this loop of death for diet.

Others defend the fear / anxiety / death on the basis of we need meat to live, we were made this way, Jesus ate meat, we have a brain so we can hunt…

Those of us who have made a choice to be out of the loop are accused of judging those who continue to eat meat even when it is a discussion of the value we find for ourselves - Does anyone else - who chooses not to eat meat feel judged in these discussions?

My brain leads me to conclude that I can survive quite well without meat, dairy and eggs. I have no underlying health condition that makes it a problem, in fact I am actually healthier having gone vegan. Therefore I can remove myself from this loop and because the choice resonates with my faith - and CAF has been a great place to discuss this choice in light of faith. Our group, Catholic Vegetarians and Vegans has grown as people who have lived this way a long time, and others just exploring the options, share and support each other.

‘Out here’ in the general forums we can share our reasons, offer information to others and possibly encourage others to consider the possibility that a change of diet - today, as meat is produced today, is a choice that they also may be interested in considering. 🙂
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If you don’t want to eat meat, fine, more power to you. Your choice is probably healthier, but I enjoy eating meat. It’s one of the few joys some people have on this earth, and as long as it’s not done to excess, it’s no sin to eat meat. However, I would say that most people who don’t eat meat, not necessarily you, have a vision of those of us who do eat meat as being extraordinarily evil. I mean, look at how cruel and insulting, not to mention deceitful, some peta ads are. This kind of arrogant, judgemental, attitude makes me angry.
 
Drawmack said:
Either debate my arguments on their merit and within their natural boundaries or go find a fifth grader to talk to.
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You are not capable of reasoned, honest, polite debate. You continually insult people on this thread. You describe the other poster’s statements as stupid. You tell me to STFU. Which maybe I should spell out for those who are unfamiliar with this acronym; it means “Shut the **** up”.

Now you tell me I have the mental capacity of a fifth grader.

This is a complete waste of my time. I don’t to come to Catholic Answers Forum to be insulted. I come here to find answers.
 
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