Death, Lies, & Videotape

[Marfran]

If you don’t want to eat meat, fine, more power to you. Your choice is probably healthier, but I enjoy eating meat. It’s one of the few joys some people have on this earth, and as long as it’s not done to excess, it’s no sin to eat meat. However, I would say that most people who don’t eat meat, not necessarily you, have a vision of those of us who do eat meat as being extraordinarily evil. I mean, look at how cruel and insulting, not to mention deceitful, some peta ads are. This kind of arrogant, judgemental, attitude makes me angry.

Your statement basically confirms that the only reason left to eat meat is because people like the taste of it, are accustomed to the taste, and find pleasure in the taste. Is that reason enough to continue, as a civilzation, in an increasingly civilized world, (capable of producing many other–often superior dietary sources of protein) to continue to breed these animals for a life of suffering to be killed pre-maturely, way before the natural end of their life spans–so that we may enjoy the taste of their flesh?

I think that most people who choose not to eat meat for ethical reasons, do not condemn their fellow meateaters, but would like the meateaters to take a good look at the issue, and in particular, take a good hard look at factory farming–raisng animals in intensive captive confinement situations. Many meateaters do not take the time to consider the source of their meat–and the general public is shielded from the view by design. Paul McCartney said something to the effect that if slaughterhouses had glass walls then everyone would become a vegetarian. Well, maybe not everyone Paul, but yes. I think that that would have a great impact on this choice of food source.

Pete: Your criticisms of PETA are well noted. Many people disassociate themselves from this **one group **and do not appreciate some of their stunts. Their stunts, however, are effective in bringing attention to issues that might not receive much attention otherwise. And I think it’s unfortunate that in bringing attention to these issues, they also create an atmosphere that makes some people feel so insulted and judged that they will not even take a look at those issues. (BTW, I have no association with this group.)

You can get much information about factory farming practices and Christians opinions on this topic from other sources. The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is a good source. Please check out the new thread that I started. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=354124 The HSUS has other great videos and resources as well. And I belong to a group called Catholic Concern for Animals–CCA. all-creatures.org/ca/

If you’re up to it Pete, do a little exploring on the subject. I do not judge you. Probably everyone who is a vegetarian or vegan has family members and friends who are not. We do not judge our brothers and sisters who still do eat meat, we were all once there ourselves. But I call everyone, as good stewards, as appointed to this position by God, to examine the current condition of our uses of animals. I think it is something important for us all to think about.

 

[Zundrah]

The camera doesn’t lie. bit.ly/7Ii3H Please watch the entire video so we can discuss.

Marfran, are you a vegeterian?

 

[Marfran]

Marfran, are you a vegeterian?

Not any more. I have taken the next step to vegan after learning about the negative health impact of dairy and eggs, and how these animals (dairy cows, their calves, and egg laying chickens) are subjected to even more cruelties than even the meat animals.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

Warning: Vulgarity and personal attacks are not allowed. Please discuss the issue, not each other.

This thread will be edited by tomorrow morning. If anyone finds posts missing, it’s because of rules violations.

 

[Zundrah]

Not any more. I have taken the next step to vegan after learning about the negative health impact of dairy and eggs, and how these animals suffer even more than the meat animals do.

So that’s why you showed us this tape is it? Seeing animals suffer made you care enough that you do not wish to eat meat any more? That’s is very sweet of you to care so much! I’m not a vegetarian but seeing this videa does scare me! What about you being vegan now!? That must be sooo difficult because many foods have meat proteins in them don’t they? I have thought of it my self but it seems very hard. Maybe you could teach me!

xxx zundrah xxx

 

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by Marfran
And that is NOT TRUE. Please provide the scientific evidence, from professional literature, that states that at one tiime in history man was capable of digesting uncooked meat **without the risk **of contracting illness from virus or bacteria in the meat. YOU MADE THAT UP.

Nope, you made up the stuff you’re saying – don’t ask me for references until you provide your own. Go read up on what the appendix was for when it actually served a purpose. Which you’ll find in medical literature.

If you are standing on solid ground you should be able to provide resources. I have done several searches and have not been able to come up with anything using this premise. There are innumerable resources concerning the proper handling of raw meat. USDA for one. There are regulations in every country concerning the proper handling and cooking of meat and animal products. If you were a restauranteur you would be subject to follow standards and temperatures with raw and cooked meat. The strict enforcement of these standards is to ensure public safety. If the idea that you proposed has been documented anywhere please advice us as to how we can locate that information. I did look up the appendix. It is ***theorized, ***that perhaps, it at one time was helpful to maintaining intestinal flora and possibly helping reboot the system, and possibly helpful establishing immunities to some germs/diseases. I did not see anything specifically mentioning meat consumption in the theories.

 

[Drawmack]

You are not capable of reasoned, honest, polite debate. You continually insult people on this thread. You describe the other poster’s statements as stupid. You tell me to STFU. Which maybe I should spell out for those who are unfamiliar with this acronym; it means “Shut the **** up”.

Now you tell me I have the mental capacity of a fifth grader.

This is a complete waste of my time. I don’t to come to Catholic Answers Forum to be insulted. I come here to find answers.

Ummm, the F stood for freak.

I described one statement as stupid and that statement was stupid. I’ve posted a lot of well reasoned, honest, polite posts in response to well reasoned, honest, polite posts. My not so well reasoned, honest, and polite posts have been in response to not so well reasoned, honest, and polite posts.

 

[Marfran]

So that’s why you showed us this tape is it? Seeing animals suffer made you care enough that you do not wish to eat meat any more? That’s is very sweet of you to care so much! I’m not a vegetarian but seeing this videa does scare me! What about you being vegan now!? That must be sooo difficult because many foods have meat proteins in them don’t they? I have thought of it my self but it seems very hard. Maybe you could teach me!

xxx zundrah xxx

Zundrah: Please go to the CAF Catholic Vegetarians and Vegans Group. We would love to have you there!!! forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=90

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah: Please go to the CAF Catholic Vegetarians and Vegans Group. We would love to have you there!!! forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=90

I just went there and I was already registered too! Let’s chat!

 

[Zundrah]

Ummm, the F stood for freak.

I described one statement as stupid and that statement was stupid. I’ve posted a lot of well reasoned, honest, polite posts in response to well reasoned, honest, polite posts. My not so well reasoned, honest, and polite posts have been in response to not so well reasoned, honest, and polite posts.

…calm your self people… what’s going on!?

 

[Marfran]

Warning: Vulgarity and personal attacks are not allowed. Please discuss the issue, not each other.

This thread will be edited by tomorrow morning. If anyone finds posts missing, it’s because of rules violations.

Actually, Walt, I think we’re OK. Right guys??? Bad language and personal attacks are unneccessary–and WE CAN DISCUSS these issues, follow the rules, and find constructive ways to express our intensities!!! Right guys??? Common on–everybody shake hands.

 

[redhen]

Warning: Vulgarity and personal attacks are not allowed. Please discuss the issue, not each other.

This thread will be edited by tomorrow morning. If anyone finds posts missing, it’s because of rules violations.

Just to preempt a sanction on my account; when I defined Drawmack’s use of the acronym STFU, I did not write any obscenities. If you check your rules filters, you will see nothing was changed in my post. I purposefully typed four asterisks.

 

[pete_29]

Your statement basically confirms that the only reason left to eat meat is because people like the taste of it, are accustomed to the taste, and find pleasure in the taste. Is that reason enough to continue, as a civilzation, in an increasingly civilized world, (capable of producing many other–often superior dietary sources of protein) to continue to breed these animals for a life of suffering to be killed pre-maturely, way before the natural end of their life spans–so that we may enjoy the taste of their flesh?

I think that most people who choose not to eat meat for ethical reasons, do not condemn their fellow meateaters, but would like the meateaters to take a good look at the issue, and in particular, take a good hard look at factory farming–raisng animals in intensive captive confinement situations. Many meateaters do not take the time to consider the source of their meat–and the general public is shielded from the view by design. Paul McCartney said something to the effect that if slaughterhouses had glass walls then everyone would become a vegetarian. Well, maybe not everyone Paul, but yes. I think that that would have a great impact on this choice of food source.

Pete: Your criticisms of PETA are well noted. Many people disassociate themselves from this **one group **and do not appreciate some of their stunts. Their stunts, however, are effective in bringing attention to issues that might not receive much attention otherwise. And I think it’s unfortunate that in bringing attention to these issues, they also create an atmosphere that makes some people feel so insulted and judged that they will not even take a look at those issues. (BTW, I have no association with this group.)

You can get much information about factory farming practices and Christians opinions on this topic from other sources. The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is a good source. Please check out the new thread that I started. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=354124 The HSUS has other great videos and resources as well. And I belong to a group called Catholic Concern for Animals–CCA. all-creatures.org/ca/

If you’re up to it Pete, do a little exploring on the subject. I do not judge you. Probably everyone who is a vegetarian or vegan has family members and friends who are not. We do not judge our brothers and sisters who still do eat meat, we were all once there ourselves. But I call everyone, as good stewards, as appointed to this position by God, to examine the current condition of our uses of animals. I think it is something important for us all to think about.

I WILL NOT GIVE UP MEAT… I’ve read some of your posts. you do so judge people. Lets look at the tone of your last post. Is taste enough to continue eating meat. YES IT IS. God put these animals on this earth for the purpose of feeding man. To deny this dishonors the place of animals in Gods creation, and thus dishonors God himself.
Peta wants to force their religious views,( yes their way of practicing vegetarianism is religious) on everyone that disagrees with them. They want to raise the animal to the level of the Human. What do you think God thinks about that! The USHS is no better. I’ve seen some of their literature. Some of it reeks with animal elitism. Like I said, if you don’t want to eat meat, FINE, but don’t think your ever going to convince me that animals are the equal of Humans. God just didn’t create them that way. Sorry for the rant, but i’ve had to many vegetarians look down there nose at me because i’m a carnivore.

 

[4elise]

If you don’t want to eat meat, fine, more power to you. Your choice is probably healthier, but I enjoy eating meat. It’s one of the few joys some people have on this earth, and as long as it’s not done to excess, it’s no sin to eat meat. However, I would say that most people who don’t eat meat, not necessarily you, have a vision of those of us who do eat meat as being extraordinarily evil. I mean, look at how cruel and insulting, not to mention deceitful, some peta ads are. This kind of arrogant, judgemental, attitude makes me angry.

Thanks Pete29 - I do not believe you will find anyone here posting on CAF endorsing the PETA ads - and I can appreciate that their approach makes you angry - to be honest, as a vegan, I also feel misrepresented by their way of communicating. They are as insulting to me as the burger king ads that have half naked girls eating a dripping hamburger.

I am always so grateful when we can discuss without judging each other -
I do know that for some who have given up meat, they feel the need to share what they have learned - and I am afraid I fall into that category - But I never want to be pushy, — I think that here at CAF it is a great place to share this because what I have learned about the way meat (dairy and eggs) are produced today in the US just seems contrary to what I know believe as a Catholic - and no the church certainly doesn’t teach that eating meat is a sin - but some of us are connecting dots and drawing a conclusion that today in the US we can not justify eating meat anymore and so we want to share this with others. Thanks for hanging in there with us! Peace

 

[vz71]

I am always a bit confused when the discussions on the topic of vegetarianism goes in this direction.

What the original post had was a video of a cow (hardly something that needs to be hunted) in a stall - apparently trying to escape - and apparently ultimately being killed.
Where the difference appears to be is that for some the idea that the cow might be experiencing fear / anxiety as it awaits it’s death - for some this re-confirms the desire to be out of this loop of death for diet.

Others defend the fear / anxiety / death on the basis of we need meat to live, we were made this way, Jesus ate meat, we have a brain so we can hunt…

Those of us who have made a choice to be out of the loop are accused of judging those who continue to eat meat even when it is a discussion of the value we find for ourselves - Does anyone else - who chooses not to eat meat feel judged in these discussions?

My brain leads me to conclude that I can survive quite well without meat, dairy and eggs.

I am glad that it is your brain that led you in this direction.
I am having difficulty with others telling me that I should be vegetarian for my lack of claws, or sharp teeth, or …etc.

Because, like you, I have a brain. My brain isn’t telling me the same things yours is. Mine is telling me I want a steak.
It also tells me that I don’t need claws, I can buy it rather then hunt it down and kill it.
And it tells me to use a knife, after all, I lack the teeth for it.
And it also tells me how to get it prepared, because It kills bacteria and also brings out the flavor.

As to the cow in the aforementioned video, I didn’t feel much for it.
I did however feel anger at the misleading way it was presented.

 

[vz71]

I always find it fascinating which threads break down into barbarism.

Consider this one. Just exactly how trivial is the question of being a vegetarian?

Yet we have such inflamed passions on both sides that we are making the moderator work double time to keep up with us.

 

[Marfran]

I always find it fascinating which threads break down into barbarism.

Consider this one. Just exactly how trivial is the question of being a vegetarian?

Well, I would say that it is not trivial at all. God appointed us stewards of this planet of His creation. It’s time for a job review. If we’re wandering off course, or doing a lousy job, some improvements and adjustments may be warranted.

 

[Zundrah]

Well, I would say that it is not trivial at all. God appointed us stewards of this planet of His creation. It’s time for a job review. If we’re wandering off course, or doing a lousy job, some improvements and adjustments may be warranted.

Damm there is a bit in the bible that would help here but I can’t remember where it is! Why does that book have to be soooo big!

It goes something like - "Do not do some thing that offends another person even if what you are doing is considered normal, becuase if you do it knowing that you are causing another fellow christian despair then you are commiting sin against that person."

Do you see that we have a responsability to take good care of one another here, handle christ’s lambs with care and peace at heart. Do not handle them brutaly…

x zundrah x

 

[4elise]

I always find it fascinating which threads break down into barbarism.

Consider this one. Just exactly how trivial is the question of being a vegetarian?

Yet we have such inflamed passions on both sides that we are making the moderator work double time to keep up with us.

vz -

First - yes - thanks Walt for keeping an eye again - but I agree with Marfran - please allow us to ‘work this out’ together… there may be bumps in the road in trying to figure out how we communicate about this… but please give us the chance to work at doing it charitably!

VZ - you and I have communicated on this issue on this thread and others - so I am sure you know that for some of us the question of being vegetarian is certainly not a trivial one, but one that resonates with faith… as always I can only speak for myself. Because my Catholic faith is central to my life, and as I’ve learned about the issues of factory farming in the US - having to pull myself out of that loop has been important. And because it resonates with my faith - it has been important to me to share that with other Catholics, and CAF has provided a great opportunity to find both those who agree with this and others with whom we can be in dialogue.

I think the reason threads break down has to do with the way we might chose to communicate, choice of words, more than the topic. For example - I could take exception to calling this issue ‘trivial’ but instead will reply to you with why it is not trivial for me.

If I write it resonates with my faith - I do not want you or others to hear that therefore I am judging your faith, but rather am sharing the ‘why’ of it with you - to the question ‘why would this be important’ as the opposite to trivial.

(and thanks again Walt for giving us space!)

 

[vz71]

Well, I would say that it is not trivial at all.

You are welcome to your opinion. However I do not see final judgement of God using my consumption of steak a criteria in my salvation.
I do however see judgement falling upon my sins.

Now if you wish to take that extra step and claim a sin there, I’ll certainly listen to your reasoning…but I doubt it would be healthy for this thread.

God appointed us stewards of this planet of His creation. It’s time for a job review. If we’re wandering off course, or doing a lousy job, some improvements and adjustments may be warranted.

Agreed. But inherent to the job of steward is command over the planet.
If man decides animals are tasty, we are entitled…we are the stewards, and it is our privelage to do so.