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catholic2
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truly beautiful
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MaggieOH
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It is not wise to rely upon material that is spurious and contains so much in the way of embellishment. It is better to stick to other sources.WOW!!
Look at that stained glass. Imagine being on your deathbed with Jesus standing at your side with His arm around you and Mary kneeling and praying at your feet.
No wonder he’s Patron of a Happy Death/Departing Souls!
I don’t know of any teaching on this. I’d have thought it would be addressed somewhere in the apochrypha, though.
MaggieOH
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RPC717
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Hmmmmm…
I wonder if it’s spurious? Stained glass isn’t just thrown together - it’s made like it is for a reason - sort of a wordless catechesis.
I’ve never heard any story from tradition or Tradition regarding St. Joseph’s death, but maybe the artist who made this image did. Could be spurious, but it surely is plausible - it might not have any embellishment at all. I don’t know, I wasn’t there.
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RPC717
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You mean the apochrypha? I don’t think it’s necessary to disregard an idea just because it’s in the apochrypha if there’s not another source, especially a scriptural one. The difference between apochrypha and scripture in inspiration, not necessarily truth.
Of course, if the apochrypha in question said that he’d died in a carpentry accident which could have been avoided if he hadn’t ignored his OSHA citations, it might just be spurious.
St. Joseph - Pray for Us!
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MaggieOH
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What I am saying is that there are elements of truth in that material but there is a lot of embellishment. That is why it was rejected by the Church. The books known as the apocrypha are not what I would call a reliable source of information outside of the Scripture. I have read quite a bit of the material, and my opinion of this material is that it is more than just not inspired. Some of the material such as the work that allegedly relates the time that Jesus was in Egypt is totally Gnostic in its approach. The foreward to the Psuedo-Gospel of Matthew says a lot about the content of all of this material.
About the only thing that I get out of this material is the names of the parents of Mary. The rest of it is just too unreliable as a source of truth.
There is a real problem when people start taking this material seriously. For example that woman by the name of Barbara Thiering who claims herself to be a theologian. She has written around four books on Jesus allegedly based on the Dead Sea scrolls and what she calls the pesher technique. Her works are riddled with error about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. In fact she denies that Jesus died on the cross and claims that he was revived by the use of aloe vera. My point is that her last book was based upon the Gospel of Thomas, and she named the book “The Gospel that Jesus Wrote”. Her claims also include that Jesus was married to Mary of Magdala and Lydia and that he lived until 70 years of age. If this material is the source of her scholarship then surely this is a warning about its use or misuse.
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RPC717
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OK, OK - I haven’t read very much of the apochrypha, and I’ve heard others refer to them as the “National Enquirer of the Ancient World.” What I have read seemed pious enough, and I’d think that there has to be a lot of truth in there. Perhaps a lot of it is allegorical, so it looks like a bunch of hooey. This may have been done in a lot of cases to escape persecution. From what I’ve heard, a lot of it really is total garbage.
My point, though, was that if you take an issue like St. Joseph’s death, and the apochrypha was your only source, that maybe it wouldn’t be too farfetched to believe what they said.
My point, though, was that if you take an issue like St. Joseph’s death, and the apochrypha was your only source, that maybe it wouldn’t be too farfetched to believe what they said.
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Exporter
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RPC says," Re: Death of St. Joseph
OK, OK - I haven’t read very much of the apochrypha, and I’ve heard others refer to them as the “National Enquirer of the Ancient World.” What I have read seemed pious enough, and I’d think that there has to be a lot of truth in there. Perhaps a lot of it is allegorical, so it looks like a bunch of hooey. This may have been done in a lot of cases to escape persecution. From what I’ve heard, a lot of it really is total garbage."
Google catholic-forum.com/saints/stj20001.htm The Books of the New Testament were accepted by a 25 to 14 vote by the Catholic Church in the early years. The Protoevangelium of James almost made it into the bible. RPC says it is “garbage”. For myself, I say the First Letter of James is just as factual as the Letter to the Thesalonians ( most experts say that Paul didnt write it at all! Yet it is said to be factual. The letter is written to a church that had not yet been formed!
If RPC thinks the Evangeliun of James is “garbage”, what other Books of the Bible are also “garbage”? Unless one has firm evidence that some books are “garbage” I would caution that person to go slow.
OK, OK - I haven’t read very much of the apochrypha, and I’ve heard others refer to them as the “National Enquirer of the Ancient World.” What I have read seemed pious enough, and I’d think that there has to be a lot of truth in there. Perhaps a lot of it is allegorical, so it looks like a bunch of hooey. This may have been done in a lot of cases to escape persecution. From what I’ve heard, a lot of it really is total garbage."
Google catholic-forum.com/saints/stj20001.htm The Books of the New Testament were accepted by a 25 to 14 vote by the Catholic Church in the early years. The Protoevangelium of James almost made it into the bible. RPC says it is “garbage”. For myself, I say the First Letter of James is just as factual as the Letter to the Thesalonians ( most experts say that Paul didnt write it at all! Yet it is said to be factual. The letter is written to a church that had not yet been formed!
If RPC thinks the Evangeliun of James is “garbage”, what other Books of the Bible are also “garbage”? Unless one has firm evidence that some books are “garbage” I would caution that person to go slow.
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RPC717
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WHO ARE YOU???
I didn’t say the Protoevangelium was garbage - wash out your eyes and between your ears. Actually, I’ve read the Protoevangelium and I referred to it as “pious enough.” I also said that the difference between the apochrypha and scripture was inspiration, not necessarily truth - no doubt some of it is true. I also did not refer to anything in scripture as garbage.
The Gospel of Thomas tells of an impish little Jesus who had to be chastised for turning his playmate into a goat. That’s garbage.
Leave the misquotes, half-truths, distortions, and lies to the Protestants. That’s their territory, not ours.
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MaggieOH
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Exporter, what are you talking about? The Protoevangelium of James was NEVER accepted as part of the canon of Scripture. Are you confusing the FIRST LETTER OF ST JAMES?
The Protoevangelium is a spurious work that was accepted as being “pastoral” in that it gave an explanation to Gentiles who did not understand Jewish relationships. The problem with the work remains the embellishment of facts. It is not a matter of the work being inspired. That was never the criteria for the New Testament books. The criteria for inclusion was the dating of the books - they had to be dated prior to the death of the last Apostle. If anything should have been included I would have said the first letter of Clement to the Corinthians should have been nominated for inclusion in the New Testament, but it was not, despite the clear pastoral teaching within it, as well as a reiteration of some of the issues that St. Paul had raised and were a continuing problem in Corinth.
No has called the work a load of garbage, just that it is considered to be spurious and of little value in the grand scheme of Christendom and what we understand and know about Mary and Joseph. Yes I am bothered by the embellishments in this work as well as all of the other literature that came from this period and after and is considered to be Gnostic in origin.
Maggie
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MaggieOH
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I am posting a portion of the Protevangelium of James so that you can see how it contradicts the Scripture:
Maggie
In one paragraph alone I found three contradictions of the Scripture:
- 1 - where in Scripture does it say that a High Priest uttered these words to Mary?
- 2 - In the Scripture it is Mary who proclaimed the Magnifcat, yet in this paragraph Mary has allegedly forgotten what the angel told her and questioned why she was called blessed.
- 3 - it says that Mary was afraid and hid herself. It also alters her age to around 16 (minor point but there seems to be a few years added to Mary’s age between the time of betrothal and the announcement of the angel. This is also inconsistent with Scripture)
Maggie
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Timidity
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No, you didn’t.
That’s not a contradiction, that’s “more information.” In order for it to be a contradiction, the scripture would have to state that those words were never uttered to Mary, which it doesn’t.
By calling this a contradiction, you would have to apply the same logic to the last words of Jesus on the cross and say that the Gospels contradict each other.
MaggieOH said:
Where’s the contradiction? Again, in order for it to be a contradiction scripture would have to say that “Mary never forgot”
MaggieOH said:
Where in scripture does it say she didn’t?
Which scripture is it inconsistant with? Give me any Bible passage that speaks of Mary’s age, or the amount of time between her betrothal and the Annunciation.
Having said all that, I agree with your basic premise that the Protoevangelum of James is not scripture and shouldn’t be treated as such. but, I feel that if you’re going to argue a point the arguements should be valid otherwise the whole case is weakened.
The Protoevangelum of James is not scripture because the Church said so. No other justification is required.
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Swabbie
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I have always been under the assumption that The Blessed Virgin was the only person who was take bodily into heaven without dying. Are we speaking of the same thing here ??? Or is the term “Translated” getting me all fouled up here ???
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catholic2
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I believe that the Church does not specify whether or not our Blessed mother died before she was bodily taken up into heaven.
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catholic2
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Genesis 5:22-24 and Hebrews 11:5 talks about that Enoch “translation” event; you know about Elijah who was taken up by that fiery chariot.
The word “translation” is not used in all Bible versions, but you should find it in the DR or even the KJV, I believe.
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MaggieOH
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I disagree that it is in the category of more information. Take a look at Luke’s Gospel. You will find there the words that Mary (not the High Priest) uttered to her cousin Elizabeth upon her greeting and Elizabeth’s inspired words “Why is it that the Mother of my LORD comes to visit me?”
What I see in the Protoevangelium passage that I posted is that the author has confused the words of Mary and given them to the High Priest. The effect is to embellish what is written but I see it as taking those words away from Mary.
I disagree when you say that about the way in which the Gospels come together. The difference is that the Gospels are reaching separate audiences. Only John was present at the foot of the cross. There is no contradiction in the stories of what happened at the Crucifixion. However, there is a contradiction in the Protoevangelium of James.
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trevor
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St. Joseph did die peacefully, with Jesus and Mary at his side. This is from “The Mystical City of God” by Mary of Agreda.
Peace,
Trevor
Peace,
Trevor
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Scotty_PGH
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I wouldn’t exactly characterize it that way. Mary didn’t command or order Jesus to perform this miracle. She ordered the servants to do whatever Jesus told them to do (bring him pots of water).
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Evan
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Scotty PGH:
As to the death of Joseph. Several of the answers work. Dying from old age, disease, or accident. All allow a peaceful death in the arms of the Holy Family. There are lots of movies where one dies in an auto accident in the arms of the beloved. Peaceful and saying such things as ‘I’m glad I was able to you one last time’
I would put it even more strongly. Mary did not even ask Jesus for anything. She simply pointed out a need and was done. The initiative would have to be completely on the part of Jesus.
As to the death of Joseph. Several of the answers work. Dying from old age, disease, or accident. All allow a peaceful death in the arms of the Holy Family. There are lots of movies where one dies in an auto accident in the arms of the beloved. Peaceful and saying such things as ‘I’m glad I was able to you one last time’
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MaggieOH
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good points
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Peace-bwu
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St. Joseph died before the martyrdom of Christians, we are pretty sure he died before Jesus did, the belief is that he died in the arms of Jesus and Mary, what more could a man ask for in a happy death.
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