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Flyingg
Guest
Good one, we make wars just to show that war is wrong.
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
I would kill someone in defense of my own life or the life of another. That does not make me a murderer or just as bad as the murderer. I am not in support of the death penalty across the board, but in certain circumstances, it is appropriate.
In Oregon, for example, our governor has just suspended the death penalty and said no one will be executed while he is in office. He did that just as a death row inmate was about to be executed. This inmate, Gary Haugen, beat a woman to death and was convicted. He admitted to the crime and is not an innocent man wrongly convicted. While in prison, he killed another inmate and was convicted of that. So it would seem other human beings are not safe even with this man in prison. In a case like this, it seems the death penalty could be appropriate to protect the lives of the other prisoners and guards.
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Ender
Guest
I suppose if killing people was always wrong this sign might make some kind of sense, but since it isn’t, it doesn’t. The Church has always taught that there are times when killing is an acceptable action.
*“It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one’s own life against an unjust aggressor.” *(Catechism of Pius X, 1905)
In any case, murderers are executed because the nature of their crime is so heinous that no other punishment is fitting.
*Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. *(CCC 2260 referencing Gen 9:6)
Ender
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Rascalking
Guest
Sorry, I stand by everything I said.
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Flyingg
Guest
Beware from falling, in the picture of course
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FromTheAshes777
Guest
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Speedypizza
Guest
Okay, then if a person is put to death wrongly, who do I get to kill for it? After all the most heinous killer only tortured their victim for a few days, where as a person on death row would be tortured for a decade or more. So who do I get to kill to make that all right? The judge, the jury, the guards or those who think we should have a death penalty? If you have the right to demand blood for blood then so do I!
Pax
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BellsMom
Guest
I think that the truth is that the only “sacred” life is that of the unborn. For everyone else there’s always going to be a reason its “okay” to kill them.
Take your pick from now and history…perceived self-defense, casualties of war, treason, heresy, any number of other “crimes against the state”, state ordered executions, because the people you are killing are very bad and just deserve it, etc.
Take your pick from now and history…perceived self-defense, casualties of war, treason, heresy, any number of other “crimes against the state”, state ordered executions, because the people you are killing are very bad and just deserve it, etc.
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pnewton
Guest
There are two things I do not understand. You call being on death row torture, yet you decry the death penalty. If imprisonment is not an alternative to the death penalty, what are you advocating, or are you an anarchist?Okay, then if a person is put to death wrongly, who do I get to kill for it? After all the most heinous killer only tortured their victim for a few days, where as a person on death row would be tortured for a decade or more. So who do I get to kill to make that all right? The judge, the jury, the guards or those who think we should have a death penalty? If you have the right to demand blood for blood then so do I!
Pax
Second, why do you demand blood for blood, then end with “Pax”. I do not understand your reasoning.
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pnewton
Guest
Okay, then if a person is put to death wrongly, who do I get to kill for it? After all the most heinous killer only tortured their victim for a few days, where as a person on death row would be tortured for a decade or more. So who do I get to kill to make that all right? The judge, the jury, the guards or those who think we should have a death penalty? If you have the right to demand blood for blood then so do I!
Pax
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Owlpride
Guest
I’m pro life and pro death penalty too. If that makes me a bad catholic, fine. It seems that everyone on here looks for reasons to compare how catholic they are to someone else.
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Ender
Guest
Surely you understand the concept of accidents and unintended consequences. There are three components of a moral action: the nature of the act, the intent behind the act, and the circumstances (including the outcome). Since the circumstances affect only ones accountability and do not change the moral nature of the act, we need look only at the nature of the act and the intent (CCC 1750-1754). Since there was no intent to execute an innocent person and the act of execution is not intrinsically evil, there is no sin (assuming everyone involved acted properly). Since there was no sin there can be no punishment and you have no right whatever to demand someone forfeit his life for making an error.
As Aquinas points out while citing Augustine:
On the contrary*,**** Augustine says to Publicola (Ep. xlvii): “When we do a thing for a good and lawful purpose, if thereby we unintentionally cause harm to anyone, it should by no means be imputed to us.” Now it sometimes happens by chance that a person is killed as a result of something done for a good purpose. Therefore the person who did it is not accounted guilty*. (ST II-II 64,8)
If you have a contrary citation demonstrating that both Aquinas and Augustine were wrong on this point I would like to read it.
Ender
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Those things you listed are not all on the same level. Don’t know what you mean by “perceived” self-defense. If I have to defend myself or another against someone who poses a lethal threat, me killing that person is not going to be wrong. Same as if I were to kill someone during a just war. If you think self-defense and just war does not exist, you are completely wrong and not in agreement with what the Church teaches.
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Speedypizza
Guest
Ahh, the joys of my thoughts not getting through on the internet… I call death row torture but not prison. In normal prison a person can have contact visits with their family and is out of their cell most of the day working and doing things. On death row a person is in solitary confinement almost the whole day. Most death rows do not even let the inmates out of their cells together. Add to this the mental torture of knowing that at the end of this hell, you are going to be killed and you might begin to see what I mean.
As far as my demand for blood, I was simply pointing out the insanity of telling me that killing people is okay in one set of circumstances but the person who is put to death wrongly by the state, nobody has to die for that. I do not wish to see anybody put to death, murderer or judge who sent an innocent man to death.
The other thing I think is somewhat lacking in this discussion is the very real problem many of us have with the WAY in which people are selected for death row. I am not just talking about the very real racial problem with death row, or the fact that only the poor ever seem to be put to death, but also the way in which people are selected for death. Although I would not support the death penalty ever, IF it really was reserved for only the worst of the worst, I would not as vocal about it. Like Willy Wanka, I would be very happy to say in a very soft voice “stop, don’t, come back” and be done with it. However their are people on death row with the mind of children, many people who are batty but “legally” sane and others who killed their friends or wives in a fit of drunken rage. I am NOT saying these things are okay, but doing so hardly makes them Ted Bundy.
I also feel that the real problem with the death penalty and our current prison system as a whole is that they all seem to forget the very real fact that a person is not the worst thing they ever did. I thank God every day that I am not forever judged for the worst thing I ever did. How many of you here can really tell me that you do not deserve punishment for your worst deed?
Matthew 18:21-35
21 Then Peter went up to him and said, ‘Lord, how often must I forgive my brother if he wrongs me? As often as seven times?’
22 Jesus answered, 'Not seven, I tell you, but seventy-seven times.
23 'And so the kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a king who decided to settle his accounts with his servants.
24 When the reckoning began, they brought him a man who owed ten thousand talents;
25 he had no means of paying, so his master gave orders that he should be sold, together with his wife and children and all his possessions, to meet the debt.
26 At this, the servant threw himself down at his master’s feet, with the words, “Be patient with me and I will pay the whole sum.”
27 And the servant’s master felt so sorry for him that he let him go and cancelled the debt.
28 Now as this servant went out, he happened to meet a fellow-servant who owed him one hundred denarii; and he seized him by the throat and began to throttle him, saying, “Pay what you owe me.”
29 His fellow-servant fell at his feet and appealed to him, saying, “Be patient with me and I will pay you.”
30 But the other would not agree; on the contrary, he had him thrown into prison till he should pay the debt.
31 His fellow-servants were deeply distressed when they saw what had happened, and they went to their master and reported the whole affair to him.
32 Then the master sent for the man and said to him, "You wicked servant, I cancelled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me.
33 Were you not bound, then, to have pity on your fellow-servant just as I had pity on you?"
34 And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt.
35 And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.’
Pax
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Rascalking
Guest
Honest question for you-Why do you get so worked up over people who commit murder? Are you trying to show how compassionate you are? These people KILLED SOMEONE IN COLD BLOOD. That is heinous. Do you care about the victims families? Did their victims have time to repent? Do they even matter to you?
Ironically, I used to be sort of against the death penalty. The more I saw people who were also against it, the more repulsed I became. They seem so focused on the criminal and almost cold towards the victims families.
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BellsMom
Guest
All I meant by “perceived self defense” was that there is no way to determine if someone is legitimately in fear for their lives. It is legal now to kill someone who tries to break into your garage in many states. Would this person pose a “lethal threat”? I don’t know. Sometimes I’m sure he would and in others he may just be looking to steal. Either way it’s considered okay to kill him in some places.
When I was a child my Dad and I came home to find a homeless man had broken into our house. He was sitting on the floor of our kitchen eating peanut butter and bread. In todays world, my father could have killed him and claimed he was in fear for our life based on the mans presence alone. You know, shoot first ask questions later. Would it have been “legitimate”? Not really, more like killing a “possible threat”. Thankfully for both my Father and this man my Dad is a calm person who didn’t overreact.
I absolutely believe its okay to defend yourself or another with lethal force if necessary. As for the rest, I think we are saying the same thing. A legitimate reason can be offered for all kinds of killing from innocents in war to criminals. Only the unborn are always morally “off limits”.
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dandingo
Guest
Do you think we should have turned the other cheek after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and let Japan continue to bomb our innocent citizens?Ahh, the joys of my thoughts not getting through on the internet… I call death row torture but not prison. In normal prison a person can have contact visits with their family and is out of their cell most of the day working and doing things. On death row a person is in solitary confinement almost the whole day. Most death rows do not even let the inmates out of their cells together. Add to this the mental torture of knowing that at the end of this hell, you are going to be killed and you might begin to see what I mean.
As far as my demand for blood, I was simply pointing out the insanity of telling me that killing people is okay in one set of circumstances but the person who is put to death wrongly by the state, nobody has to die for that. I do not wish to see anybody put to death, murderer or judge who sent an innocent man to death.
The other thing I think is somewhat lacking in this discussion is the very real problem many of us have with the WAY in which people are selected for death row. I am not just talking about the very real racial problem with death row, or the fact that only the poor ever seem to be put to death, but also the way in which people are selected for death. Although I would not support the death penalty ever, IF it really was reserved for only the worst of the worst, I would not as vocal about it. Like Willy Wanka, I would be very happy to say in a very soft voice “stop, don’t, come back” and be done with it. However their are people on death row with the mind of children, many people who are batty but “legally” sane and others who killed their friends or wives in a fit of drunken rage. I am NOT saying these things are okay, but doing so hardly makes them Ted Bundy.
I also feel that the real problem with the death penalty and our current prison system as a whole is that they all seem to forget the very real fact that a person is not the worst thing they ever did. I thank God every day that I am not forever judged for the worst thing I ever did. How many of you here can really tell me that you do not deserve punishment for your worst deed?
Matthew 18:21-35
21 Then Peter went up to him and said, ‘Lord, how often must I forgive my brother if he wrongs me? As often as seven times?’
22 Jesus answered, 'Not seven, I tell you, but seventy-seven times.
23 'And so the kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a king who decided to settle his accounts with his servants.
24 When the reckoning began, they brought him a man who owed ten thousand talents;
25 he had no means of paying, so his master gave orders that he should be sold, together with his wife and children and all his possessions, to meet the debt.
26 At this, the servant threw himself down at his master’s feet, with the words, “Be patient with me and I will pay the whole sum.”
27 And the servant’s master felt so sorry for him that he let him go and cancelled the debt.
28 Now as this servant went out, he happened to meet a fellow-servant who owed him one hundred denarii; and he seized him by the throat and began to throttle him, saying, “Pay what you owe me.”
29 His fellow-servant fell at his feet and appealed to him, saying, “Be patient with me and I will pay you.”
30 But the other would not agree; on the contrary, he had him thrown into prison till he should pay the debt.
31 His fellow-servants were deeply distressed when they saw what had happened, and they went to their master and reported the whole affair to him.
32 Then the master sent for the man and said to him, "You wicked servant, I cancelled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me.
33 Were you not bound, then, to have pity on your fellow-servant just as I had pity on you?"
34 And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt.
35 And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.’
Pax
Do you think that the entire world should have turned the cheek when Hitler was exterminating the Jews and Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot where committing mass genocide?
Do you think that we should have turned the other cheek after terrorists slaughtered thousands in the world trade centers and let them continue to terrorize us?
If your mother, father, brother sister, son, daughter, niece or nephew was getting raped and/or tortured, would you do whatever it took to defend your family member’s right to life?
There is a time to turn the other cheek and there is a time to defend ourselves. We have an obligation to defend ourselves from evil. The Catholic Church acknowledges this.
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Speedypizza
Guest
Because some of those people did not commit murder, some of them are guilty of nothing more then being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course the family of the victims matter to me, however the family of the killers do not matter any less to me. What if your brother/father/sister were sent to die for a crime you did not think that they did? What if they were put to death and later it was found out that they were innocent?
Also caring about the family of the victim does NOT mean I have to give in to them screaming for blood and revenge. We do not get to do whatever we want just because we feel like it. If the family WANTING revenge is a good enough reason to do it then my WANTING to rob a bank is a good enough reason to rob it. The reason we have laws in this country is so that we do not do whatever we want or feel like.
You also seem to forget that you just like me deserve nothing but to be thrown into the fire of hell. It is the grace and forgiveness of God that allows us to escape our fate. God also says that if we do not forgive others of what they did, then we will lose our forgiveness. I think that that along with the fact the the Pope and most of the Bishops of the world are against the death penalty would at least give you pause.
Pax
P.S. I get worked up over lots of things, it is because I am a passionate person. The day I stop being passionate about things is the day I will be 6 feet underground.
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
St. Augustine talks about exactly this in his Just War writing. He talks about turning the other cheek being an INTERNAL thing, where we are not doing it out of anger or hate, simply out of necessity to stop evil.
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HelenRose
Guest
Personally I oppose both. Having said that however, there are some differences between the two.
An adult who faces the death penalty has a lawyer and a chance in front of a jury. He or she has a voice. A condemned man or woman will die quickly.
The unborn child has no voice and no chance to fight for his or her life. An unborn faces having his or her arms ripped off while still alive and having his or her head crushed - or - perhaps, while still alive - be sucked out of the womb with a vacuum. These are not painless procedures.
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