Death Penalty

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Lisa N:
Dismas your concerns might be valid if people being wrongly tried and wrongly convicted actually were a reality in this country. It is not the case. For one because the courts are so clogged very few even go to trial. Further they are not going to try cases, particularly capital cases, unless they are virtual slam dunks. No DA wants his/her record damaged with a bunch of losing efforts.

IOW the idea that someone who was totally innocent would plead guilty and accept life without parole because they had the death penalty hanging over them is just flat preposterous. I think we have far more instances where the guilty go free because there is evidence that cannot be used. And yes I do know how the criminal justice system works. There are so many safeguards for the prisoners that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to simply trump up and prove capital charges.

I think my position that the death penalty should be available but used only in the most extreme circumstances is quite in line with Church teachings even if you do not share the opinon.

Lisa N
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If you only knew just how many were convicted or even plead that were innocent. Did you not here of all those exonerated in IL, TX, and MO as well as others b/c of DNA evidence.

Check out Psychology and the Legal System by Dr. Wrightsman of KU. You can get a good education as to what we think is true is not always the case. The idea of people pleading to a case they are not guilty of is not so outrageuous when we consider they may do so to save their life.

We operate is a system now that goes by the philosophy “Let 10 innocent go to prison lest one guilty go free!” What ever happened to 10 guilty go free lest one inncoent be imprisoned.
While I respect your having an opinion, unless you have some knowledge of the system you talk about - it is just that, an opinion.

What do I bring to the table - Education and Life experience. I’d be more than happen to leave you with Case Studies, Empirical research, what ever you would like in regards to such things. For example- did you know that a jury that is willing to sentence someone to death is more apt to convict than a jury that is not. Does that seem like Justice to you?

You haven’t answered my earlier question about what you would do if you where in those shoes?
 
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seeker63:
Even if a murderer converts it still doesn’t make up for his crime.
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Conversion does not make up for the crime. Conversion does not make up for the sin. There is still punishment that needs to be served.
 
Thoughts: Jesus never killed anyone, we are to model ourselves after him. Our zoo animals have better accomodations than prisoners . Prisons are violent places. It is more expensive to execute a person than to house them for life. In war time , people digging their own graves prayed and the person who was to kill them converted. Capital punishment doesn’t reduce killings, just creates legal ones by execution. An interesting site is Diocese of Burlington Vt. Bishop Angell discusses this topic succinctly. God is the author and finisher of life. The death penalty in my book is playing God.
 
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Starflower:
Our zoo animals have better accomodations than prisoners . Prisons are violent places. … Capital punishment doesn’t reduce killings, just creates legal ones by execution. .
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I am thoroughly confused by this position. Are you saying that no criminal should be imprisoned or executed? Do you propose that all criminals remain as part of the community?

I strongly disagree that zoo animals have better accomodations. The only time I have heard this type of comment is from prisoners (because their TV doesn’t come with cable), from family members of prisoners (who do not know but believe everything they are told be their beloved son) or from the pandas (well, the pandas do have a point).
 
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pnewton:
I am thoroughly confused by this position. Are you saying that no criminal should be imprisoned or executed? Do you propose that all criminals remain as part of the community?

I strongly disagree that zoo animals have better accomodations. The only time I have heard this type of comment is from prisoners (because their TV doesn’t come with cable), from family members of prisoners (who do not know but believe everything they are told be their beloved son) or from the pandas (well, the pandas do have a point).
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In a lot of way they do - but that isn’t the point. Humans have a psyche and inside prisons all acorss america their psyche is damaged do to the system. Is it fair, no - but neither was their crimes. Hoever, most prisoners will re-enter society. the Quesiton I ask you is how do you want them treated right before they get out. Bare in mind they might be moving in right next to you - date your son or daughter. They may be your future boss!

We have the best sytem in the word, but that doens’t mean we should stop trying to make it better.

The issue at hand is the Death Penalty however - What are your thoughts on that, coming from texas and all?
 
Speaking of beasts… During times of war, large beasts are routinely killed off at the zoo to protect the safety of the public, because their incarceration cannot be ensured under heavy military assault. But in times of peace lions and leopards secured behind bars pose no danger to the public whatsoever.

It is the same with people who are spending the remainder of their days locked up in jail. They pose no more danger to the public than lions and leopards do in the zoo.

So if the execution of inmates does not raise the safety of the public, please tell me, what moral grounds could a society have for killing people?
 
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Dismas2004:
The issue at hand is the Death Penalty however - What are your thoughts on that, coming from texas and all?
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The Catholic Church teaches that it is not murder to execute someone. Capital punishment is allowable as long as no other means exists to safeguard society. This is an area where judgement may be used and faithful Catholics may disagree (even with the Holy Father) and not be disobedient, as long as the basic principle is adhered to.

While in theory it might be possible to build and staff an escape proof, for-life, prison, it would never be allowed by current society. The post by Starflower reflects a common sentiment in today’s society. All the things which current constitutional interpretation mandates bring more humane treatment, but they also bring an increased chance of esape, assault and continual criminal behavior.

My professional opinion is that some (a small minority of the most sociopathic convicts) people fall into the categoryof being an serious ongoing threat to society, even behind bars and as of this date the death penalty is still needed. I hope some day this changes.
 
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pnewton:
The Catholic Church teaches that it is not murder to execute someone. Capital punishment is allowable as long as no other means exists to safeguard society. This is an area where judgement may be used and faithful Catholics may disagree (even with the Holy Father) and not be disobedient, as long as the basic principle is adhered to.

While in theory it might be possible to build and staff an escape proof, for-life, prison, it would never be allowed by current society. The post by Starflower reflects a common sentiment in today’s society. All the things which current constitutional interpretation mandates bring more humane treatment, but they also bring an increased chance of esape, assault and continual criminal behavior.

My professional opinion is that some (a small minority of the most sociopathic convicts) people fall into the categoryof being an serious ongoing threat to society, even behind bars and as of this date the death penalty is still needed. I hope some day this changes.
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Phillip;

First if I may ask you a question, What is the percentage of violence and number of “security breaches” on Death Row v. General Population? How many people have escaped Death row v How many have escaped general population? You and I both know the answers to these quesitons!😉 What would happen, if we just didn’t execute those guys and girls? Nothing immoral, society would still be safe and protected. Communities would save money and the Gospel of Life would be preserved.

Can we disagree witht he Pope, sure on some things, but this is a mtter of Morals, a matter of consistent church teaching. when you uphold the position you do, you go against JPII and the United States Conferance of Catholiic Bishops! You should check out the two writings the USCCB has put out on the Justice System, they’re cheap and easy to get. I would even bet your local library might have them.

You said it right though, “when no other means exist to safeguard society.” The point is, that there is. Name me one criminal in custody right now that is a threat to society even locked up behind bars and explain to me how the State or it’s employees are incompetant or lack the resources necessary to effectively safeguard society.

Why you’re at it, explain to me how DNA evidence has exonerated so many people in IL that they put a hold on all executions? Explain to me how that is a system doing it’s job! Thanks God for DNA evidence. What about all the people who were executed before then, is it 100% that they were all guilty?

Why is it that a jury that is willing to give the death penalty is also more likely to convict? Explain to me how that is just?

It says in your profile that you work in corrections. What do you do in corrections?

As for me, I was a Psychology/Criminology/Pre-Law major at a Kansas college before I committed a crime and went to prison. Now I am just a Psychology and Religious Studies major. How ever, if you get the chance I highly reccoemnd taking Psychology and the Legal System from KU through Correspondance. I took it, along with countless others, while I was locked up. Trully eye opening.

So it is interesting, two view points from two perspectives. It is a pleasure to meet you, even if I think you’re wrong;)! I have an open mind, convince me!

p.s. Dismas is the patron saint of Prisoners. He was the one crucified with Christ who Christ gave His mercy!
 
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Dismas2004:
Phillip;
Can we disagree witht he Pope, sure on some things, but this is a mtter of Morals, a matter of consistent church teaching. when you uphold the position you do, you go against JPII and the United States Conferance of Catholiic Bishops!

So it is interesting, two view points from two perspectives. It is a pleasure to meet you, even if I think you’re wrong!
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All I gave was my opinion, since that is what you asked for. Unlike many others I have no desire to convince anyone, as I see both sides to this issue. As far as the “how many” questions you asked, I do not know.

You pointed out correctly that many on death row do not pose a threat. If this country would allow prisons to treat all prisoners as restrictive as we do death row inmate, they could be managed much safer, but then we are back to the problem of inhumane treatment of prisoners.

The only thing I think you are wrong about is that one should not disagree with what the pope has said on the subject. If he ever pronounces on this topic (and reverses what is in the CCC) then I will far in line. If he has done so I have not heard it. Expressing his judgement is not prononucing a matter of faith and morals (as in his opinion on the Iraq war). If you remember from Karl Keating’s defense of the Voter’s Guide, the death penalty is not a non-negotiable position of the Catholic Church. If that changes, I will change.
 
In my humble opinion:

The death penalty can serve only one purpose and that is to protect the innocent.

If we can reasonably keep someone locked up and prevent that person from hurting another then that is the preferential action. That persons life is precious and that person is loved by God no mater what they have done. There is always hope for repentance.

However, if the death penalty would prevent others from committing murder then the use of the death penalty is an act of self defense. Having said that I think that this situation is extremely rare. Military desertion during a battle might be an example. The use of the death penalty has the affect of increasing the culture of death and this is why we should lean away from the death penalty.

As a conservative myself it has always surprised me that many conservative are in favor of the death penalty. Conservatives cant trust the government to use our money but it can be trusted to kill our citizens??
 
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JamesD:
The use of the death penalty has the affect of increasing the culture of death and this is why we should lean away from the death penalty.
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I find this to be one of the most compelling arguements against the death penalty. It is safe to say that no good Catholic should favor the death penalty for the sake of revenge.
 
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pnewton:
All I gave was my opinion, since that is what you asked for. Unlike many others I have no desire to convince anyone, as I see both sides to this issue. As far as the “how many” questions you asked, I do not know.

You pointed out correctly that many on death row do not pose a threat. If this country would allow prisons to treat all prisoners as restrictive as we do death row inmate, they could be managed much safer, but then we are back to the problem of inhumane treatment of prisoners.

The only thing I think you are wrong about is that one should not disagree with what the pope has said on the subject. If he ever pronounces on this topic (and reverses what is in the CCC) then I will far in line. If he has done so I have not heard it. Expressing his judgement is not prononucing a matter of faith and morals (as in his opinion on the Iraq war). If you remember from Karl Keating’s defense of the Voter’s Guide, the death penalty is not a non-negotiable position of the Catholic Church. If that changes, I will change.
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Phillip,

Thanks for your insight and honesty. It is truly a breath of fresh air. I respect your position and opinions. You are right, I am out to convince others. I would just like to add that the reason why the Death Penalty is not intrinsicaly evil, is because sometimes it is for the common good. The CCC and the consitent teaching of the church has said so time and time again. That same teaching however, when applied to the American Justice system shows that it is indeed a sin.

There is another reason, besides all of this to get rid of the Death Penalty. One is controversarial b/c the evidence seems to point in one direction, but isn’t entirely consistent with other research. That is, they all point to one irection, but the degree to which they do varies. What research you ask, That the Death Penalty actually increases crime. It is known as the brutilization affect.

Another reason, and this is something I’m studying right now, is that it actually perpetuates a flawed concept of mental health for the victims. The short story is bascially that Victims feel they can’t get “closure” until the person is executed. We should never allow our mental health to be determined by another, espeically someone who has already victimized us! That is allowing them to victimize all over again.

Again, Thank Phillip for your comments. Life would be easier if things were more black and white. I just can’t wait till they are all radiant!

Take care and God bless.
 
*Yes - However, it should only be used in extreme cases: Like terrorists/T. McVeigh *
 
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ByzCath:
So you want to quote the Bible? What about all these?
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Ok, let’s try the red letters. “Let the one of you who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Not for retribution. Only to defend from further bloodshed.
 
For most of my life I believed in it for mass murderers and terrorists whose acts resulted in mass murder (not just being part of a terrorist plot). My reason is more for the sake of true justice, letting the victims’ families and society see that the killer is getting his just deserts. It’s not really vengeance so much as assuring people that things are right with the world and the killer hasn’t absurdly “gotten away with it” with a cushy life in prison, being fed and housed by the state, no matter what heinous acts he perpetrated. Crimes where men kidnap, rape and murder kids really gets me going on this. It’s not vengeance I want, because the kid was not known to me, but I want to think that the killer got what he deserved. There has to be some sort of symmetry between what he did to others and what is done to him. Don’t know how else to put it.

But because I am now a Catholic, I am trying to wean myself away from this position but I gave an honest explanation of what my view has been up until recently. I’m still mulling it over. The application of the death sentence has been very fault ridden and unjust to the poor. I do know a lot of errors have been made so the evidence for the sake of sentencing would have to be just overwhelming, obvious, and the crime horrendous.

I would easily give up capital punishment to get rid of abortion, if such a political trade-off were possible. People taunt us all the time about the inconsistency of course. Maybe it would be better to do without the death sentence. One thing I know for sure is that we can’t justify the death sentence because we can’t afford or it’s to hard to care for the prisoner for life or they’re better off dead. That makes it equivalent to abortion almost.
 
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caroljm36:
For most of my life I believed in it for mass murderers and terrorists whose acts resulted in mass murder (not just being part of a terrorist plot). My reason is more for the sake of true justice, letting the victims’ families and society see that the killer is getting his just deserts. It’s not really vengeance so much as assuring people that things are right with the world and the killer hasn’t absurdly “gotten away with it” with a cushy life in prison, being fed and housed by the state, no matter what heinous acts he perpetrated. Crimes where men kidnap, rape and murder kids really gets me going on this. It’s not vengeance I want, because the kid was not known to me, but I want to think that the killer got what he deserved. There has to be some sort of symmetry between what he did to others and what is done to him. Don’t know how else to put it.

But because I am now a Catholic, I am trying to wean myself away from this position but I gave an honest explanation of what my view has been up until recently. I’m still mulling it over. The application of the death sentence has been very fault ridden and unjust to the poor. I do know a lot of errors have been made so the evidence for the sake of sentencing would have to be just overwhelming, obvious, and the crime horrendous.

I would easily give up capital punishment to get rid of abortion, if such a political trade-off were possible. People taunt us all the time about the inconsistency of course. Maybe it would be better to do without the death sentence. One thing I know for sure is that we can’t justify the death sentence because we can’t afford or it’s to hard to care for the prisoner for life or they’re better off dead. That makes it equivalent to abortion almost.
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If I may, console yourself with the knowledge that When we as a society let our happiness or sense of Justice come from outside, i.e. seeing someone executed, then we have failed, and we are no longer mentally healthy. Our happiness and justice depends on us, not them. It resides in the I, not the thou. For example, what happens if someone puts all their happiness and sense of justice in the idea that a person who murdered their daughter and raped he was going to be executed. The person is tried - then not convicted, or convicted and not given the death penalty, or an appelate courrt over rides the conviction and commutes it to life w/o parole. How will that person feel? Their hope is on another psrsons death, when it should be on His death, the Cross of Christ! That is the sound Catholic Moral teaching ont he subject. Only when it is absolutely necessary do we take life for the protection of the community. Then it is just.
 
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Dismas2004:
Phillip,

Thanks for your insight and honesty. It is truly a breath of fresh air. I respect your position and opinions. You are right, I am out to convince others. I would just like to add that the reason why the Death Penalty is not intrinsicaly evil, is because sometimes it is for the common good. The CCC and the consitent teaching of the church has said so time and time again. That same teaching however, when applied to the American Justice system shows that it is indeed a sin.
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How is it a sin? I think this overlooks the basics of Divine Law. God commanded that we shall not murder. God did not command that we shall not kill the guilty. Scripture is full of capital crimes and capital punishment. There are all kinds of good arguments against the death penality, but claiming that it is a sin is not one of them. For something to be a sin it must be against the Divine Law and killing the guilty is not against the Divine Law. The Pope has never said that Capital Punishment is sinful, and, for the above reason, he never will.

Please don’t think, or jump to the conclusion that I support CP. I do not. I am just saying that no matter what one thinks about CP, it is not sinful because it is not against Divine Law.
 
If anyone is against capital punishment than they do not know that the Bible sanctions capital punishment in:

Deut. 13:11;17:7,13;19:12,20;21:21
Num. 35:31-34
Rom. 12:3,4

There is the proof from scriture that capital punishment must be administered for 1st degree homicide. Another reason for capital punishment is to save the taxpayers money by not keeping the murderers alive in prison.

Albert
 
selvaraj,

The Bible sanctions capital punishment in Deut., Num. and Rom. for 1st degree homicide and so who is anybody to go against what the Bible says about capital punishment?

Albert
 
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