Deathbed Baptism - Skip Purgatory?

[Returnee]

Nothing disordered can enter into heaven. Does Baptism cleanse the soul of all disordered thoughts and the desire to sin? I’m not saying that the soul doesn’t go straight to heaven. But somehow all evil desires and misordered thoughts must be purged. If you think that’s an instantaneous purgation, so be it - that would be acceptable.

Yes, I believe it’s an instantaneous purgation, given the fact that at the moment, the person despises all their sins and wishes to be in full communion with God. This is why I took pains to specify that condition. Given that condition (that a person despises all their sins, ie. makes a “perfect contrition”) and that Baptism is occurring, a sacrament that has the unique, one time power of removing all sin and the temporal consequences thereof, an “instantaneous purgation” occurs.

This “perfect contrition” is key; if for some reason the baptized didn’t have this, then I would imagine the effects would be the same as a partial indulgence: Only part of the temporal consequences would be obliterated, and thus, some time in Purgatory might be called for. However, the saving power of Baptism cannot be overstated, IMO. Even in the case where someone still has some attachment to sin, then the person would still not go to Hell, no matter how sinful they had been before.

Note, this is the condition that must be met to obtain a plenary indulgence. One must have a complete detachment to all sin, even venial sin. So the effect, once one receives a plenary indulgence, is the same as after Baptism, that is, all sin is gone as well as the temporal consequences.(assuming all the other conditions for the plenary indulgence are met, i.e., a recent Confession, reception of the Eucharist, and prayers said for the Holy Father’s intention, as well as any particular conditions for whatever indulgence one is considering)

If one does not have a complete detachment to sin at the time one attempts to gain a plenary indulgence, then a partial one is gained. Again, similar outcomes to the possible scenarios surrounding a “deathbed Baptized” (but of course for different reasons)

Thus, after one receives a plenary indulgence, and if one dies right away, one goes straight to Heaven also. So the idea that an “instantaneous conversion” of this magnitude can occur is not unheard of for the newly Baptized, much less for anyone receiving a plenary indulgence.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Returnee - I think your lack of understanding of the uniqueness of the Sacrament of Baptism is key. Each Sacrament IS an encounter of a soul with God. He is present in each one, but in different ways. Keep this part in mind. No one is expected to have perfect contrition in Baptism, for infants and those who lack full capacities, i.e. the mentally impaired, this is not possible. The Grace of the Sacrament makes it possible. Baptism is a singularly unique Sacrament, that is why it cannot be repeated, ever. By it a person is clothed in Christ and is thereby welcomed into full Communion with the Church. If a soul were on the verge of death at that time, there would be no need for contrition, just the desire to have the Sacrament. A person in such a state has no knowlege of the depth of his personal sins, he or she would have too many to comprehend and probably if it were an actual situation, he or she wouldn’t even know what sins to declare. We don’t do that. Catholics don’t have to have contrition of receive Baptism. If that were true, we’d be Baptists where a person has to acknowlege his or her sinfullness, welcome Christ as Lord and Savior and make a decision to follow Him for the rest of his or her life to get Baptised. That’s how the Baptists do it, not us Catholics.

I suggest you study up on the Sacrament. It is an encounter with God just like Confession, or the Eucharist, or Ordination. Perhaps after you understand Baptism more you’re doubts about the state of soul who has just received it will clear up too! I hope so.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Returnee]

Dear Returnee - I think your lack of understanding of the uniqueness of the Sacrament of Baptism is key. Each Sacrament IS an encounter of a soul with God. He is present in each one, but in different ways. Keep this part in mind. No one is expected to have perfect contrition in Baptism, for infants and those who lack full capacities, i.e. the mentally impaired, this is not possible. The Grace of the Sacrament makes it possible. Baptism is a singularly unique Sacrament, that is why it cannot be repeated, ever. By it a person is clothed in Christ and is thereby welcomed into full Communion with the Church. If a soul were on the verge of death at that time, there would be no need for contrition, just the desire to have the Sacrament. A person in such a state has no knowlege of the depth of his personal sins, he or she would have too many to comprehend and probably if it were an actual situation, he or she wouldn’t even know what sins to declare. We don’t do that. Catholics don’t have to have contrition of receive Baptism. If that were true, we’d be Baptists where a person has to acknowlege his or her sinfullness, welcome Christ as Lord and Savior and make a decision to follow Him for the rest of his or her life to get Baptised. That’s how the Baptists do it, not us Catholics.

I suggest you study up on the Sacrament. It is an encounter with God just like Confession, or the Eucharist, or Ordination. Perhaps after you understand Baptism more you’re doubts about the state of soul who has just received it will clear up too! I hope so.

Peace,

Gail

Well, you might want to direct your criticism to bbentrup as well; that person seems to also believe that, in the case of a “deathbed Baptism”, if the person isn’t completely contrite, then some time in Purgatory is required.

It is traditional teaching that after Baptism, not only is one’s entire sin erased, but also the temporal consequences. I don’t disagree with that per se. The OP did raise an interesting question however, at least in my mind. How can it be “just” if someone asks for Baptism at the last moment before death, just to avoid time in Purgatory? Take Constantine for example.

This of course wasn’t the exact question in the OP, however it is a natural extension of it. This was also the condition I was talking about with bbentrup, albeit in an indirect way. In my second post on this thread, I was responding to bbentrup’s response to my first post. You’ll note in my previous post on this thread, I make no mention about what you criticize me for here.

However, let’s examine the question of Constantine more closely. I think it may shed further light on what I was thinking in my post to bbentrup. Returning to that question, what do you think happened to him? Did he go straight to Heaven? If so, if it’s even acceptable to believe when one has an INTENTION of avoiding Purgatory through some kind of “Baptism loophole”, and this actually works, then why do we Baptize adults? Why don’t we wait for people to be on their deathbed before Baptism? After all, seems like a great way to skip Purgatory all together.

It should be obvious: If someone, an adult (not a baby, who has no capacity to form any will, either good will or bad will), has a will to avoid Purgatory by getting a deathbed Baptism, then, while Baptism, being a uniquely effective Sacrament, can and does save such a person from Hell, it cannot be called “just” that such a person, with an obviously selfish motive attached to the very act of Baptism itself, goes straight to Heaven.

I believe it’s dangerous to think of the Sacraments in this manner. The Sacraments aren’t some kind of magic spell that are guaranteed effective in every circumstance; they require cooperation on our part, a minimum of cooperation, but cooperation (assuming one has the capacity for such cooperation, if not, as in the case of infants, for example, such cooperation isn’t required). But if there is such a capacity, then it only seems reasonable that such cooperation be initiated. Or else we are just saying magic spells, or worse, denying free will all together.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Returnee - I will simply repeat - contrition for personal sins is not required for Baptism.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. I will state that in the case of adult Baptism, of which I am a recipient, there are usually other Sacraments to be received and proper preparation is required. But I didn’t need ot participate in the Easter Vigil to receive Baptism. It could have been done privately and then I’d prepare for other Sacraments, i.e. Confession, Eucharist, Penance, etc. I still think you misunderstand the Sacrament, but that is just my opinion. If you perceive my opinion as a critcism, so be it. I’m not intending to hurt your feelings in any way. I just think your questions would be answered if you understood more about the Sacrament. They’d be non-questions!

 

[terryobrien80]

Deathbed Baptism - Skip Purgatory?

Suuwweeeeeet !!

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Dan,

In baptism all sins are forgiven (original sin, actual sin and all punishments for sin), and I have heard it said that a person baptized on their deathbed would go straight to heaven. However, I am wondering whether such a person would still need to pass through purgatory because of the attachments to sin which still linger in their heart. I am thinking in terms of venial sins such as pride, lust, or even a lack of complete trust in God - sins that people spend their whole lives trying to let go of. Wouldn’t these need to be purged even after baptism, before a person could be fit for heaven?

This is my own experience, and I do not relate it in order to make a blanket statement about other people.

I had a radical conversion experience with my Lord when I was a teen-ager because I was on the verge of death.

I believe that anyone who accepts the Lord at the point of death can only be sincere. I can’t imagine a death-bed baptism that is NOT sincere - i.e., without a genuine desire for God, whether by attrition or contrition.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ron77nyc]

Nothing disordered can enter into heaven. Does Baptism cleanse the soul of all disordered thoughts and the desire to sin? I’m not saying that the soul doesn’t go straight to heaven. But somehow all evil desires and misordered thoughts must be purged. If you think that’s an instantaneous purgation, so be it - that would be acceptable.

I have to agree with you. I’ve heard it expressed like this: You aren’t a sinner because you sin. You sin because you are a sinner. A trained wild animal is still a wild animal. The training does not change its nature. An alcoholic who stops drinking is still an alcoholic. The carnal nature of man will always have the potential and the desire to sin.

1 Corinthians 15 nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible.
43 It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
45 So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
46 But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.
48 As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.
50 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Footnotes
20 [42-44] The principles of qualitative difference before and after death (1 Cor 15:36-38) and of diversity on different levels of creation (1 Cor 15:39-41) are now applied to the human body. Before: a body animated by a lower, natural life-principle (psyche) and endowed with the properties of natural existence (corruptibility, lack of glory, weakness). After: a body animated by a higher life-principle (pneuma; cf 1 Cor 15:45) and endowed with other qualities (incorruptibility, glory, power, spirituality), which are properties of God himself.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

I’m in the middle of a minor dispute with my mother. If I remember correctly from catechism, if a person dies shortly after being baptized, their soul goes straight to heaven, because baptism takes away every trace of sin from their soul. My mother thinks the temporal punishment due to sin remains behind and the person would go right to purgatory instead. Who’s closer to the truth here? :: Bemused smile::

 

[RUINATION_IPA]

Baptism is a complete washing of the stain of original and actual sin and all punishment due to them. So, in theory, yes - someone who dies immediately after baptism would go straight to heaven. However, death bed type conversions are a rarity and I would argue that someone who led a life of sin has a lot of attachment, and habit, to sin so even an hour after baptism they could have venial sins due to thoughts etc. which would need to expiated. So just because someone is baptised and then dies a few hours later does not mean that they neccessarily went straight to heaven.

 

[need_to_know]

Here is a thread with some good answers.

 

[kage_ar]

Tell your mom that you are right, but, she is still mom and give her a hug

 

[crm114]

trying to get around the system and try to pull some kind of fast one on God is kind of silly.

It certainly would be silly for us to try to fool God with a legalistic trick.

On the other hand, God knows our petty, legalistic nature and arguably uses it to encourage us to move away from sin. For example, indulgences. You could say that someone who goes out of his way to obtain plenary indulgences is engaging in a petty and unworthy form of legalism. But the usual conditions for the plenary indulgence include detachment from sin. Does it not benefit the actual (and not just legalistic) condition of our souls when we strive to achieve this?

Eastern Christians, Protestants and non-Christians sometimes criticize our “Roman juridical” sensibilities, as if legalism were devoid of redeeming value. I think these critics underestimate the power of God to use our own nature, and our Catholic culture, to empower our consciences.

Many seven year-old Catholic child discover for themselves, and explore, one of the great moral questions: If I am in grave sin and am on my way to Confession, and I get hit by a bus crossing the street in front of the church, am I saved? Legalistic? Sure. A worthwhile spiritual exercise? Absolutely.

JMHO and I am no theologian!