Debate help: Contraception mentality leads to divorce, homosexuality, murder

[TimothyH]

Maybe something from Father Hardon. He makes excellent arguments that contraception is the root cause of many social ills.

therealpresence.org/archives/Abortion_Euthanasia/Abortion_Euthanasia_009.htm

therealpresence.org/archives/Abortion_Euthanasia/Abortion_Euthanasia_004.htm

therealpresence.org/archives/Chastity/Chastity_004.htm

-Tim-

 

[ahs]

Maybe something from Father Hardon. He makes excellent arguments that contraception is the root cause of many social ills.

therealpresence.org/archives/Abortion_Euthanasia/Abortion_Euthanasia_009.htm

therealpresence.org/archives/Abortion_Euthanasia/Abortion_Euthanasia_004.htm

therealpresence.org/archives/Chastity/Chastity_004.htm

-Tim-

Those are really great articles! Thanks.

 

[TimothyH]

Those are really great articles! Thanks.

I have to congratulate you AHS. You have taken a very difficult stand, one that many Catholics either don’t understand or disagree with, some quite viscerally.

I have been thouroughly scourged on these forums for suggesting that contraception is the root cause of porn addiction, divorce, teen pregnancy, and even that artificial contraception is the root cause of abortion.

I have gone further and stated that those who use artificial contraception, especially Catholics who ought to know better, bear much of the blame for creating the conditions which allow these social ills to continue. This, in my estimation, is especially true with regards to abortion. Saying as much has touched off small firestorms.

But I am not alone in this view. Father John Hardon S.J. was way ahead of his time. Jenn Giroux, executive director of HLI America holds the same view as myself and Father Hardon, that contraception is the root cause of many of these problems and that if we were to eliminate artificial contraception then most of these other problems would simply dissapear or diminish greatly on their own.

A good article expressing this same view was published by Catholic Exchange in Auguest of 2010. It was titled “Contraception: The Bacteria Devouring America’s Soul”

***Having seen an inordinate number of eloquent commentaries delineating the moral evils of the recent United States District Court decision nullifying the will of California voters on Proposition 8, which banned same-sex marriage, I am nonetheless left wondering why none of the commentators was able to connect the dots.

Obviously, same-sex “marriage” or even same-sex “civil unions” are a bad idea, particularly if legitimized by a court system that previously put its stamp of approval on contraception and abortion. But why isn’t anyone pointing out the obvious root cause of this latest moral and legal debacle? Why isn’t anyone hammering on contraception?***

The entire article can be read at catholicexchange.com/contraception-the-bacteria-devouring-americas-soul/

The current controversy around the HHS mandates that the Catholic Church provide a means to acquire contraception for their employees underscores the need to make this view known and the basis for it understood. I have been praying every day that God uses this current controversy to bring an understanding of the intrinsic evil of artificial contraception to light. So far the argument has been about the first ammendment and religious freedom. No one is attacking the real problem, contraception itself, and the trail of wrecked lives and shipwrecked souls it is causing. But I still pray.

Congratulations AHS for taking a bold stand in the name of Christ.

-Tim-

 

[littlebum2002]

In the last 200 years, the number of pirates worldwide has decreased, while average global temperatures increased. Therefore, global warming is caused by lack of pirates

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileiratesVsTemp(en).svg

Correlation does not imply causation. Even if you prove that divorce, homosexuality, and abortion have increased in the last 50 years, you have not proven that “free-love hippy days” caused it.

Man first entered space in 1961. The divorce rate has gone up since 1961. Therefore, maybe man entering space has increased the divorce rate.

 

[mark_a]

I have to congratulate you AHS.

I have been thouroughly scourged on these forums for suggesting that contraception is the root cause of porn addiction, divorce, teen pregnancy, and even that artificial contraception is the root cause of abortion.

And I congratulate you, TimothyH!!

 

[ahs]

And I congratulate you, TimothyH!!

Ditto!

The Popes predicted as much…that with a divorcing of the aspects of the marital union (fecundity and fidelity) would come these very evils.

littlebum2002, these things that correlate (contraception, divorce, promiscuity, abortion) can be traced to a same root…the splitting of fecundity and fidelity in each marital act. Contracepting a sexual act has the natural consequence of splitting the 2 aspects…and naturally leads to the other evils. That is why, as far as I can see it anyway, they are related.

Pirates have nothing to do with global “warming”…which, by the way, is a myth.

 

[Nate13]

In the last 200 years, the number of pirates worldwide has decreased, while average global temperatures increased. Therefore, global warming is caused by lack of pirates

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileiratesVsTemp(en).svg

Correlation does not imply causation. Even if you prove that divorce, homosexuality, and abortion have increased in the last 50 years, you have not proven that “free-love hippy days” caused it.

Man first entered space in 1961. The divorce rate has gone up since 1961. Therefore, maybe man entering space has increased the divorce rate.

Yes but if you show repeated correlation in multiple countries that is a start for the basis of the argument. I believe more than correlation has been discussed here as well. You show the correlation first, and then you can go about describing why the correlation exists.

 

[mitex]

I don’t think there is any evidence contraception causes or leads to homosexuality… The causes of homosexuality are currently unknown to science (it’s not genetic, or psychological we simply don’t know or can agree)…

No one can agree on the causes. Do I think contraception leads to abortion? Sure contraception practically is abortion. But homosexuality there’s just no connection there.

 

[ahs]

I don’t think there is any evidence contraception causes or leads to homosexuality… The causes of homosexuality are currently unknown to science (it’s not genetic, or psychological we simply don’t know or can agree)…

No one can agree on the causes. Do I think contraception leads to abortion? Sure contraception practically is abortion. But homosexuality there’s just no connection there.

Right, I tried to clarify above…I needed to say that I think it correlates to the atttitude of “I have the right to have sex with whomever I want, even a same-sex person, and there is nothing worng with that”. The actual same-sex attraction has nothing to do with contraceptive use. (in my opinion).

And even still, I agree that there is little or no statistical evidence I could use to show the correlation (regarding homosexual activity/GLBT groups/etc…). You just have to step back and take an objective look at our history and where we are today, as antoher poster mentioned earlier.

 

[Nate13]

Right, I tried to clarify above…I needed to say that I think it correlates to the atttitude of “I have the right to have sex with whomever I want, even a same-sex person, and there is nothing worng with that”. The actual same-sex attraction has nothing to do with contraceptive use. (in my opinion).

Yeah, it would be like if at one point and time everyone said eating any kind of fruit was bad. Then people slowly come to decide that maybe apples are ok. If the original principle was all fruit is bad, but you just accepted apples you have to accept all other kinds of fruits now to be rationale do you not? Either that or you have to start trying to prove that apples are not fruit.

People have to accept homosexual acts as being ok when they accept contraceptive acts in order to be rationale in terms of human reason.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Yeah, it would be like if at one point and time everyone said eating any kind of fruit was bad. Then people slowly come to decide that maybe apples are ok. If the original principle was all fruit is bad, but you just accepted apples you have to accept all other kinds of fruits now to be rationale do you not? Either that or you have to start trying to prove that apples are not fruit.

People have to accept homosexual acts as being ok when they accept contraceptive acts in order to be rationale in terms of human reason.

That’s some twisted logic.
There is no correlation between the two.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I am having a debate with a friend and he has said he’ll give no more consideration to my points without objective, impartial evidence…stats.

Can someone (multiple someones) please help me find data for my argument that, since the dawning of the contraception mentality (free-love, hippie-days) there has been a correlation in the rise of:

-Divorce
-Homosexuality
-Abortion (I called it “murder, in as much as innocent babies are killed in the womb”)

Thanks,
ahs

There’s a difference between finding a rise and being able to prove that contraception is the cause.

For example - divorce has simply become more acceptable, and it has become more unacceptable to be in an unhappy marriage. Nothing to do with contraception there.

There has been a rise in homosexuality because more people are able to ‘come out’ without fear of bad repercussions. The % of people who are homosexual hasn’t changed. In cultures where there is no contraception homosexuality still exists.

Abortion has also always existed before contraception.

 

[mitex]

That’s some twisted logic.
There is no correlation between the two.

Yeah I really have to agree.

 

[ahs]

That’s some twisted logic.
There is no correlation between the two.

The correlation is that contraception is justified by claiming one can remove the procreative aspect from the unitive aspect of the marital act (sex). “I can have sex to express my love/unity with this person without having to accept the procreative nature of the act.”

Homosexuality follows the same justification when you boil it down. “I can have sex with this person I love to express my unitiy with them (or for mere pleasure) without regarding that there is a procreative aspect that is naturally a part of sex.”

There’s a difference between finding a rise and being able to prove that contraception is the cause.

For example - divorce has simply become more acceptable, and it has become more unacceptable to be in an unhappy marriage. Nothing to do with contraception there.

There has been a rise in homosexuality because more people are able to ‘come out’ without fear of bad repercussions. The % of people who are homosexual hasn’t changed. In cultures where there is no contraception homosexuality still exists.

Abortion has also always existed before contraception.

Well, let’s dicuss, then, why divorce has become more acceptable. Why has it? What is it about today that is different from the 1800’s-1960’s that has made divorece more acceptable?

Regarding homosexuality…this has been clarified 3 times in this thread already. (See posts 16, 17, 18, 19, and 28 for review.) I used the wrong terminology. If you want to discuss this aspect of the thread, word your response according to my clarifications please. If you could, also please show me something that suggests homosexual behavior was accepted in American society as a normal or otherwise acceptable behavior prior to the introduction of popular contraceptive use in the 1960’s. Also please answer for me why, all of the sudden, has homosexual activity begun to be seen as acceptable in our society. (Hint, it’s because sex has begun to been seen as an expression of love or unity, absent the procreative aspect.)

Can you show where abortion has existed prior to contraception. Contraception is not new…been around for some 9,000 years or something like that. Also, can you please show where abortion has been as prevelent in any society as it is today in America…and please also show how prevelant (or absent) contraception use was at that time in that society.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Well, let’s dicuss, then, why divorce has become more acceptable. Why has it? What is it about today that is different from the 1800’s-1960’s that has made divorece more acceptable?

Modern technology, decline of religion, more freedom for common people? None of them include contraception.

Regarding homosexuality…this has been clarified 3 times in this thread already. (See posts 16, 17, 18, 19, and 28 for review.) I used the wrong terminology. If you want to discuss this aspect of the thread, word your response according to my clarifications please. If you could, also please show me something that suggests homosexual behavior was accepted in American society as a normal or otherwise acceptable behavior prior to the introduction of popular contraceptive use in the 1960’s. Also please answer for me why, all of the sudden, has homosexual activity begun to be seen as acceptable in our society. (Hint, it’s because sex has begun to been seen as an expression of love or unity, absent the procreative aspect.)

Why here do you say American society? Ah yes, because you know that homosexuality has existed in popular culture way before America even existed. Ancient Rome and Greece for one. So that, in itself, proves that contraception has nothing to do with the prevelance of homosexuality in a culture.

Can you show where abortion has existed prior to contraception. Contraception is not new…been around for some 9,000 years or something like that. Also, can you please show where abortion has been as prevelent in any society as it is today in America…and please also show how prevelant (or absent) contraception use was at that time in that society.

Abortion isn’t new either. Some 9,000 years or something like that.

“The first recorded evidence of induced abortion, is from the Egyptian Ebers Papyrus in 1550 BCE.[3] A Chinese record documents the number of royal concubines who had abortions in China between the years 515 and 500 BCE.[4] According to Chinese folklore, the legendary Emperor Shennong prescribed the use of mercury to induce abortions nearly 5000 years ago.[5] Many of the methods employed in early and primitive cultures were non-surgical. Physical activities like strenuous labor, climbing, paddling, weightlifting, or diving were a common technique. Others included the use of irritant leaves, fasting, bloodletting, pouring hot water onto the abdomen, and lying on a heated coconut shell.[6] In primitive cultures, techniques developed through observation, adaptation of obstetrical methods, and transculturation.[7] Archaeological discoveries indicate early surgical attempts at the extraction of a fetus; however, such methods are not believed to have been common, given the infrequency with which they are mentioned in ancient medical texts.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

 

[Jaaanosik]

The correlation is that contraception is justified by claiming one can remove the procreative aspect from the unitive aspect of the marital act (sex). “I can have sex to express my love/unity with this person without having to accept the procreative nature of the act.”

Homosexuality follows the same justification when you boil it down. “I can have sex with this person I love to express my unitiy with them (or for mere pleasure) without regarding that there is a procreative aspect that is naturally a part of sex.”

…

St. Paul was clear in 1 Corinthians 7 - sex belongs to marriage. No need to add anything to the Scripture.
You will not find any cleaner and stronger argument.

 

[LemonAndLime]

There is a joke to be had at the suggestion that contraception leads to homosexuality.

Gay people do not need to use contraception.

 

[mitex]

The correlation is that contraception is justified by claiming one can remove the procreative aspect from the unitive aspect of the marital act (sex). “I can have sex to express my love/unity with this person without having to accept the procreative nature of the act.”

Homosexuality follows the same justification when you boil it down. “I can have sex with this person I love to express my unitiy with them (or for mere pleasure) without regarding that there is a procreative aspect that is naturally a part of sex.”

Well, let’s dicuss, then, why divorce has become more acceptable. Why has it? What is it about today that is different from the 1800’s-1960’s that has made divorece more acceptable?

Regarding homosexuality…this has been clarified 3 times in this thread already. (See posts 16, 17, 18, 19, and 28 for review.) I used the wrong terminology. If you want to discuss this aspect of the thread, word your response according to my clarifications please. If you could, also please show me something that suggests homosexual behavior was accepted in American society as a normal or otherwise acceptable behavior prior to the introduction of popular contraceptive use in the 1960’s. Also please answer for me why, all of the sudden, has homosexual activity begun to be seen as acceptable in our society. (Hint, it’s because sex has begun to been seen as an expression of love or unity, absent the procreative aspect.)

Can you show where abortion has existed prior to contraception. Contraception is not new…been around for some 9,000 years or something like that. Also, can you please show where abortion has been as prevelent in any society as it is today in America…and please also show how prevelant (or absent) contraception use was at that time in that society.

If two homosexuals want to express their love for each other that’s their business and none of ours.

They will answer to a higher power. As for your claim of contraception and homosexuality there is no link.

The modern gay rights movement took off in World War 2 when homosexuals all met each other in the military service. It gave way to a globalized and interconnected society that allowed people like that to meet each other and hook up. People also used contraception long before it was legalized although illegally. In World War II condoms were standard issue to troops (learned that one from my Pappy).

 

[ahs]

Modern technology, decline of religion, more freedom for common people? None of them include contraception.

How has modern technology made divorce more acceptable?

Decline of religion, I agree with. But, can you show any supporting data that suggests this is the case? Also, which aspect of religion has declined that might have led to increased divorce?

More freedom of common people? I don’t see where you are going with this.

Why here do you say American society? Ah yes, because you know that homosexuality has existed in popular culture way before America even existed. Ancient Rome and Greece for one. So that, in itself, proves that contraception has nothing to do with the prevelance of homosexuality in a culture.

I picked America because that is part of my debate, for which I started this thread (to get information on my topic). But if you want to go elsewhere, then let’s dicuss those. In ANY society (you pick which ones you want) where homosexual activity, not attractions, (having sex with a same sex person) was largely accepted, can you show me that contraception was not? (And again…remember that I am not talking about same sex atraction, “homosexuality”…I have clarified this 5 times now…I am talking about the acceptance of same-sex sex, not same sex attraction.)

Abortion isn’t new either. Some 9,000 years or something like that.

Yes, that is right. So, now we both see a possible correlation between contraception and abortion…both can be traced back to 9,000 years ago. But even if you disregard that, look at it objectively. What part of the sex act is the baby/embryo/fetus? It’s the procreative aspect, in the flesh. Why do people beleive they can abort a baby, aside from the emotional view/finances/etc…? How do people justify removing the baby?

 

[ahs]

If two homosexuals want to express their love for each other that’s their business and none of ours.

They will answer to a higher power.

Okay…that is SOOO not what I am talking about…at all. I clarified this…several times…