Debate: Novus Ordo vs. TLM; Traditional vs. Traditionalist

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Are you looking at the right hand column? It is the same translation that is used, as far as I can see. Only they haven’t provided Eucharistic Prayer III and IV.

They used to be a different translation of the Order of the Mass in some English speaking countries before 1975 but this is not it.

There are a few small inaccuracies on the TLM side
Ugh. Now that I go through it again, I thought there were a few examples, now I can only find one! :o
P: The Lord be with you.
R: And also with you.
P: A reading from the Holy Gospel according to N.
R: Glory to you, Lord.
[At the end of the Gospel:]
P: This is the Gospel of the Lord.
R: Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ.
P: May the words of the Gospel wipe away our sins.
I’ve never heard what is in bold said after the Gospel.

I’m sure that there was more, but I can’t find it at the moment.

(is it possible that the priest is supposed to say that silently? :o)
 
I’ve never heard what is in bold said after the Gospel.

I’m sure that there was more, but I can’t find it at the moment.

(is it possible that the priest is supposed to say that silently? :o)
:yup: in a low voice
 
The clear implication of Ron Criss’ frankly outrageous posts is that the Church WANTS every Roman Rite Catholic to embrace the so-called Novus Ordo, but allows the so-called Tridentine merely as a concession to be tolerated so as to avoid schism.

There is ZERO evidence for that position in Summorum Pontificum. Or in Ecclesia Dei Adflicta. It’s a position some have taken. Not the Pope, and not the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.

John Paul called the desire for the Tridentine liturgy to be a “rightful aspiration”. It is YOU, Ron Criss, who are disobedient to Rome with your insinuations about those who prefer this liturgy.
 
Yes, we are not talking about proclaiming any new dogmas. It says nothing about the infallibility of the council or its authority for Catholics who believe the Holy Spirit seaks through an ecumenical council approved by a pope. The reform of the liturgy is not a dogma. What traditionalists who deny V2 are in effect doing is agreeing with Protestants that the Pope and Catholic ecumenical councils can err. Ironically these traditionalists believe themselves so infallible and inspired as to correct a council and a pope! Or should I say many popes? They seem to have more problems with the popes than the Protestants do.

If the Traditionalists are correct then perhaps the Protestants were right to instruct Rome on her errors? If popes and ecumenical councils cannot be trusted then there is no ultimate authority in the Church. Any man’s opinion is equal. Protestants would be right, only the Bible is authoritative and that depends on personal interpretation. That is the direction pointed to by Traditionalism, individualism vs authority.

Ron
Again, you have no understanding of infallibility what so ever. I think you need to take some classes in the Catholic religion before you come here and tell all of us traditionalists that we are disobedient to the Pope. Ridiculous.
 
Regarding the obedience and liturigical reform, I want to repost this from Dietrich von Hildebrand from an essay entitled: “Belief and Obedience: The Critical Difference.”

"Our belief in the teachings of the Church de fide must be an absolute and unconditional one, but we should not imagine that our fidelity to the Church’s theoretical authority is satisfied merely by acceptance of ex cathedra pronouncements. We also must adhere wholeheartedly to teachings of the Church in matters of morality, even if they are not defined ex cathedra. The teaching of the encyclical Humanae Vitae, for example, is binding because its content has always been part of the teaching of the Church; in it we are confronted with the theoretical authority of the Church embodied in the tradition of the ordinary magisterium. It is not a mere practical commandment of the Church, like the commandment to go to church on Sunday. It is a statement about a moral fact; that is, it states a truth: that birth control is sinful. It is forbidden not because of the Pope’s policy, but because the theoretical authority of the Church declares its sinfulness. Here, as in all cases of a teaching of the theoretical authority, the old maxim applies: Roma locuta: causa finita.

The situation is different when positive commandments of the Church, practical decisions, are at stake. Here we are not faced with the infallible Church. While we must obey such decisions and submit to them in reverence and deep respect, we need not consider them felicitous or prudent. Here the maxim Roma locuta: causa finita does not apply. If we are convinced that any practical change or decision is objectively unfortunate, noxious, compromising, imprudent, or unjust, we are permitted to pray that it may be revoked, to write in a respectful manner about the topic, to direct petitions for a change of it to the Holy Father–to attempt, in a variety of ways, to influence a reversal of the decision.

…The point, of course, is that obedience to the practical disciplinary decisions of the pope does not always imply approval of them. When such a decision has the character of compromise or is the result of pressure or the weakness of the individual person of the pope, we cannot and should not say: Roma locuta: causa finita. That is, we cannot see in it the will of God; we must recognize that God only permits it, just as He has permitted the unworthiness or weakness of several popes in the history of the Church.

…Nor can I conceal–and here we are returning to the point from which we started–the fact that the new Missale Romanum seems to me an incomparably greater mistake than that Concordat [with Hitler’s Germany]. I share the view of the great, venerable Cardinal Ottoviani–a true rock of orthodoxy–and of the group of Roman theologians who authored a critical study of the “new” Mass for Cardinal Ottoviani, that this liturgical innovation implies a contrast, at least by omission, with the de fide canons of the Council of Trent about the Mass. latin-mass-society.org/study.htm].

On account of my deep love for and devotion to the Church, it is a special cross for me not to be able to welcome every practical decision of the Holy See, particularly in a time like ours, which is witnessing a crumbling of the spirit of obedience and of respect for the Holy Father.

But we cannot close our eyes to the fact that the rubrics of the new Ordo (as distinct from the text itself) are at variance with the definition of the essence and raison d’etre of Holy Mass given by the Council of Trent. Consequently it must be feared that in their sermons, many priests will be encouraged to emphasize the character of the “assembly of the people of God” at the cost of both the mystery of the sacrifice of the Holy Mass and the ineffable gift for every individual soul granted in the sacrament of the Eucharist–faith in which is already menaced by certain heretical trends rampant in the Church.

Are theocentrism, the most intimate communion of the individual with Christ in the Eucharist, the reality of the glorious union with the saints, the militant, suffering and triumphant Church, recollection and reverence–are all these truths fostered in the new Ordo as securely as in the old? And are not these precisely the truths that need to be emphasized at the present moment?
We must not overlook the fact that behind many of the deplorable phenomena of our times–promiscuity, the rapid spread of criminality, student rebellion–there lurks a deep despair which echoes a cry for redemption, the ever-present longing of the anima naturaliter Christiana for Christ, the Epiphany of God, in His full supernatural glory. The unique character of our time calls not for yielding to the secular spirit–that can only increase the current despair–but for the full disclosure of the glory of the depositum Catholicae fidei.

Thus I hope and pray that the Tridentine Mass will not be abolished, but will continue to be celebrated side by side with the new Ordo. Furthermore, I hope and pray that in the course of time, its superiority, from the pastoral as well as the doctrinal standpoint, will be recognized by the Holy See, and that in the future the Tridentine Mass will be reinstated as the official liturgy of the holy Mass in the Western Church."
 
Uh, question. The English translation of the Norvus Ordo is one that I’ve never heard before. Is it supposed to be the translated Latin version, or is it supposed to be the new translation coming out in the next few years?
There are some quibbles about the accuracy of the English trans as well as the inelegance of it. Hopefully these will be corrected by the Vatican-inspired revisions.

Ron
 
Communion in the hand started in 1964, without approval from Pope Paul. EMHC also started in 1964 without approval.Do you really believe that in 1964 the attention span was so great that Mass had to be shortened? That is the reason it was started? You are reaching for explainations to justify your thinking.
No, I am not. You are being selective in your response. I never said that the shorter modern attention span was the whole reason for the reform. Though, yes, by 1964 people were paying little attention because it was in Latin and they were essentially spectators who couldn’t understand the show. The primary purpose of the reform was to involve the people in the Mass. Let’s also not forget that the Liturgy goes beyond the Mass. The movement for reform actually originated with the monastics who wanted to increase their own involvement. St Pius X was actually a motivator of the reforms.

Ron
 
The clear implication of Ron Criss’ frankly outrageous posts is that the Church WANTS every Roman Rite Catholic to embrace the so-called Novus Ordo, but allows the so-called Tridentine merely as a concession to be tolerated so as to avoid schism.

There is ZERO evidence for that position in Summorum Pontificum. Or in Ecclesia Dei Adflicta. It’s a position some have taken. Not the Pope, and not the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.

John Paul called the desire for the Tridentine liturgy to be a “rightful aspiration”. It is YOU, Ron Criss, who are disobedient to Rome with your insinuations about those who prefer this liturgy.
Its simple logic, Alex. The HS and the council fathers mandated reform. The pope approved the decrees of the council. You want to return to the very rite that was mandated be reformed. Does it not evince a certain amount of spiritual pride to go against the HS and the Magisterium by returning to that very same rite? Think about it. I’m only pointing out what traditionalists have tried to minimize with sugestions that the council was “only pastoral”. The HS and the council determined that the Lirutgy be reformed. Clinging to the old rite is logically diobedient in spirit.

Now I could live with the suggestion that the reform needs to go on and some elements of the older rite could be re-gained or re-emphasised, that the decrees be followed more exactly (for existence the requirement that Gregorian Chant be preserved). But even the popes recent encyclical, which I do believe WAS a concession to hard-hearted traditionalists verging on schism, doesn’t negate the decrees of V2. Pushed further I suspect you would even go so far as to suggest that V2 was heretical, wouldn’t you?

Ron
 
Again, you have no understanding of infallibility what so ever. I think you need to take some classes in the Catholic religion before you come here and tell all of us traditionalists that we are disobedient to the Pope. Ridiculous.
I think you traditionalists are in fact the ones who need an education. The strongest argument you can muster against the decrees of V2 for reform is the illogical suggestion that “pastoral” somehow excludes infallibility. Decrees of an ecumenical council approved by a pope are infallible. The HS does not err. Therefore the to cling to the TR is disobedient. I’m a papist and a Catholic. I submit to the Bishop of Rome. So sue me!

Acts 15
6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.
7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.

22 Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.
23 This is the letter delivered by them: "The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,
25 we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth:
28 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us…

Ron
 
Regarding the obedience and liturigical reform, I want to repost this from Dietrich von Hildebrand from an essay entitled: “Belief and Obedience: The Critical Difference.”

"Our belief in the teachings of the Church de fide must be an absolute and unconditional one, but we should not imagine that our fidelity to the Church’s theoretical authority is satisfied merely by acceptance of ex cathedra pronouncements. We also must adhere wholeheartedly to teachings of the Church in matters of morality, even if they are not defined ex cathedra. The teaching of the encyclical Humanae Vitae, for example, is binding because its content has always been part of the teaching of the Church; in it we are confronted with the theoretical authority of the Church embodied in the tradition of the ordinary magisterium. It is not a mere practical commandment of the Church, like the commandment to go to church on Sunday. It is a statement about a moral fact; that is, it states a truth: that birth control is sinful. It is forbidden not because of the Pope’s policy, but because the theoretical authority of the Church declares its sinfulness. Here, as in all cases of a teaching of the theoretical authority, the old maxim applies: Roma locuta: causa finita.

The situation is different when positive commandments of the Church, practical decisions, are at stake. Here we are not faced with the infallible Church. While we must obey such decisions and submit to them in reverence and deep respect, we need not consider them felicitous or prudent. Here the maxim Roma locuta: causa finita does not apply. If we are convinced that any practical change or decision is objectively unfortunate, noxious, compromising, imprudent, or unjust, we are permitted to pray that it may be revoked, to write in a respectful manner about the topic, to direct petitions for a change of it to the Holy Father–to attempt, in a variety of ways, to influence a reversal of the decision.

…The point, of course, is that obedience to the practical disciplinary decisions of the pope does not always imply approval of them. When such a decision has the character of compromise or is the result of pressure or the weakness of the individual person of the pope, we cannot and should not say: Roma locuta: causa finita. That is, we cannot see in it the will of God; we must recognize that God only permits it, just as He has permitted the unworthiness or weakness of several popes in the history of the Church.

…Nor can I conceal–and here we are returning to the point from which we started–the fact that the new Missale Romanum seems to me an incomparably greater mistake than that Concordat [with Hitler’s Germany]. I share the view of the great, venerable Cardinal Ottoviani–a true rock of orthodoxy–and of the group of Roman theologians who authored a critical study of the “new” Mass for Cardinal Ottoviani, that this liturgical innovation implies a contrast, at least by omission, with the de fide canons of the Council of Trent about the Mass. latin-mass-society.org/study.htm].

On account of my deep love for and devotion to the Church, it is a special cross for me not to be able to welcome every practical decision of the Holy See, particularly in a time like ours, which is witnessing a crumbling of the spirit of obedience and of respect for the Holy Father.

But we cannot close our eyes to the fact that the rubrics of the new Ordo (as distinct from the text itself) are at variance with the definition of the essence and raison d’etre of Holy Mass given by the Council of Trent. Consequently it must be feared that in their sermons, many priests will be encouraged to emphasize the character of the “assembly of the people of God” at the cost of both the mystery of the sacrifice of the Holy Mass and the ineffable gift for every individual soul granted in the sacrament of the Eucharist–faith in which is already menaced by certain heretical trends rampant in the Church.

Are theocentrism, the most intimate communion of the individual with Christ in the Eucharist, the reality of the glorious union with the saints, the militant, suffering and triumphant Church, recollection and reverence–are all these truths fostered in the new Ordo as securely as in the old? And are not these precisely the truths that need to be emphasized at the present moment?
We must not overlook the fact that behind many of the deplorable phenomena of our times–promiscuity, the rapid spread of criminality, student rebellion–there lurks a deep despair which echoes a cry for redemption, the ever-present longing of the anima naturaliter Christiana for Christ, the Epiphany of God, in His full supernatural glory. The unique character of our time calls not for yielding to the secular spirit–that can only increase the current despair–but for the full disclosure of the glory of the depositum Catholicae fidei.

Thus I hope and pray that the Tridentine Mass will not be abolished, but will continue to be celebrated side by side with the new Ordo. Furthermore, I hope and pray that in the course of time, its superiority, from the pastoral as well as the doctrinal standpoint, will be recognized by the Holy See, and that in the future the Tridentine Mass will be reinstated as the official liturgy of the holy Mass in the Western Church."
As much as I admire DVH I think he was wrong here. He was a fallible human being. There is no question of placing his judgement over that of the Pope and an ecumenical council. You can follow Dietrich if you choose, but I will follow Peter. Its that simple.

Ron
 
=roncriss;3274914]No, I am not. You are being selective in your response. I never said that the shorter modern attention span was the whole reason for the reform.

Though, yes, by 1964 people were paying little attention because it was in Latin and they were essentially spectators who couldn’t understand the show
.

First off the Mass isn’t a “show” and secondly I was a teenager in 1964. I understood the Mass. I could read the Latin text and read the English translation. No problem
The primary purpose of the reform was to involve the people in the Mass. Let’s also not forget that the Liturgy goes beyond the Mass. The movement for reform actually originated with the monastics who wanted to increase their own involvement. St Pius X was actually a motivator of the reforms.
And what reforms were made by Pius X? All vernacular Mass? Replacing Canon with nine optional Eucharistic prayers? Communion in the hand? Priest facing the people? Removal of Tabernacle?
 
=roncriss;3274951]I think you traditionalists are in fact the ones who need an education. The strongest argument you can muster against the decrees of V2 for reform is the illogical suggestion that “pastoral” somehow excludes infallibility. Decrees of an ecumenical council approved by a pope are infallible. The HS does not err. Therefore the to cling to the TR is disobedient. I’m a papist and a Catholic. I submit to the Bishop of Rome. So sue me!
" to cling to the TR is disobedient" ???

,…“the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition” Pope Paul VI on the New Mass

The Mass is a discipline. Not a dogmatic definition.

Dietrich von Hildebrand: "Belief and Obedience: The Critical Difference”
“The point, of course, is that obedience to the practical disciplinary decisions of the pope does not always imply approval of them. When such a decision has the character of compromise or is the result of pressure or the weakness of the individual person of the pope, we cannot and should not say: Roma locuta: causa finita. That is, we cannot see in it the will of God; we must recognize that God only permits it, just as He has permitted the unworthiness or weakness of several popes in the history of the Church”
 
As much as I admire DVH I think he was wrong here. He was a fallible human being. There is no question of placing his judgement over that of the Pope and an ecumenical council. You can follow Dietrich if you choose, but I will follow Peter. Its that simple.

Ron
Hi Ron,

Here is another quote from Fr. John Parsons:

The last of our three paragraphs from Sacrosanctum Concilium is ***No. 54:

*** “A suitable place may be allotted to the vernacular in Masses which are celebrated with the people, especially in the readings and the “common prayer”, and also, as local conditions may warrant, in those parts which pertain to the people… Nevertheless care must be taken to ensure that the faithful may also be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. Wherever a more extended use of the vernacular in the Mass seems desirable, the regulation laid down in article 40 of this Constitution is to be observed”.
Code:
                                               **Fallibility of Prudential              Judgments
**
This is the paragraph that sank a thousand missals, and more than a thousand years of unity in the Roman Rite, which had been one of the principal factors in the emergence of a unified western civilization.
Code:
                   There is the famous              story of how the Dominican Cardinal Browne urged the Council Fathers              to beware of allowing the vernacular, lest Latin vanish from the liturgy              within ten years or so. He was laughed at by the assembly, but as              so often, the pessimistic reactionary proved to be more in touch with              the flow of events than the optimistic progressives. 

                   The Council Fathers'              incredulous laughter at Cardinal Browne helps to remind us that a              general council, like a Pope, is only infallible in its definitions              of faith and morals, and not in its prudential judgements, or in matters              of pastoral discipline, or in acts of state, or in supposed liturgical              improvements. It is thus false to assert that a Catholic is logically              bound to agree with the prudential judgments a council may make on              any subject. It is still more illegitimate to extrapolate from the              negative immunity from error which a general council enjoys in definitions              of faith and morals, to belief in a positive inspiration of councils,              as if the bishops were organs of revelation like the Apostles, and              their prudential decrees inerrant like the Scriptures. It is only              a false ecclesiology and a false pneumatology that can lead to the              exorbitant assertion that a council is "the voice of the Holy Spirit              for our age". Are we really *obliged* to believe that the Holy              Spirit demanded the launching of a Crusade at the Fourth Lateran Council              in 1215? And *must* we hold that in 1311 the Holy Spirit dictated              the Council of Vienne's rules regulating the use of torture by the              Inquisition? And is it *de fide *that when Alexander IV ordered              those suspect of heresy to be tortured to confess their guilt, this              was what "the Spirit was saying to the churches" on 15 May 1252? If              so, are we to condemn the Catechism of the Catholic Church of 15 August              1997, which comes to us on the same papal and episcopal authority              and which condemns the use of torture to extract confessions of guilt,              and openly says that "the pastors of the Church" erred on the matter?

        As to the liturgy,              is it mandatory to believe that in 1963 the Holy Spirit wanted the              abandonment of the principle of the weekly recitation of all 150 psalms,              on which the Office of the Roman Rite has been based from its very              beginnings prior to Saint Benedict? And is it *de fide* that              God wanted the Hour of Prime suppressed from January 1964? No, this              doctrine of the Infallibility of the Party Line simply will not do.              It is not Catholic teaching that the Church is infallible in pastoral              or prudential judgements. We are therefore logically free to hold              that any council can be ill-advised when making these kinds of decision,              and thus ill-advised in allowing the conversion of the liturgy into              the vernacular, even if that had taken the form of a direct translation              of the 1962 Missal.
http://www.christianorder.com/features/features_2001/features_bonus_dec01.html
 
Ron Criss is either obstinately ignorant or deliberately provocative.

Note he completely ignores any posters’ mention of Summorum Pontificum, which solemnly defines the status of what he insultingly and abusively refers to as something “logically disobedient”.

Sorry, Ron. Times have changed. It’s not “disobedient” to celebrate the so-called Tridentine liturgy. It’s what John Paul called a “rightful aspiration” and what Benedict has now allowed to celebrated without indult.

Answer this, Ron Criss. Is the Fraternity of St. Peter “disobedient”? They certainly “cling” to the “Tridentine Rite”.

Show me where Summorum Pontificum says it’s “disobedient” to cling to this liturgy. Just one citation will do.

Oh, can’t provide one? Then move on.
 
Ron Criss is either obstinately ignorant or deliberately provocative.

Note he completely ignores any posters’ mention of Summorum Pontificum, which solemnly defines the status of what he insultingly and abusively refers to as something “logically disobedient”.

Sorry, Ron. Times have changed. It’s not “disobedient” to celebrate the so-called Tridentine liturgy. It’s what John Paul called a “rightful aspiration” and what Benedict has now allowed to celebrated without indult.

Answer this, Ron Criss. Is the Fraternity of St. Peter “disobedient”? They certainly “cling” to the “Tridentine Rite”.

Show me where Summorum Pontificum says it’s “disobedient” to cling to this liturgy. Just one citation will do.

Oh, can’t provide one? Then move on.
I agree that Ron has staked out a bit of an extreme position. But is also disingenuous to deny that satisfying the demands of traditionalists was the primary impetous behind the indults and Summorum Ponitificum. Ecclesia Dei was commissioned to deal with the Lefebrve schism, not to deal with the TLM. It was out of that process that both the indults and SP eventually came. In SP, Pope Benedict does not say that clinging to he EF is disobedient, but the whole movement started with disobedience. I think that there is truth to be found both in Ron’s comments and in yours, and in the letter accompanying the Summorum Pontificum the Pope recognized both:
It is true that there have been exaggerations and at times social aspects unduly linked to the attitude of the faithful attached to the ancient Latin liturgical tradition. Your charity and pastoral prudence will be an incentive and guide for improving these. For that matter, the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching: new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal. The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard. The celebration of the Mass according to the Missal of Paul VI will be able to demonstrate, more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage. The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal.
I read this paragraph to say: “Look, I know these traditionalists can be pains in the butt, but that’s what parish priests are called to do, deal with it. And you have to admit that if you did a better job with the OF, there wouldn’t be so many pining for the EF. So go out there and do better.”
 
The “whole movement” did not start in disobedience.

It started legally with the 1971 indult for England and Wales. Are you asserting Cardinal Heenan was “disobedient” when he requested that indult?

The Lefebvre issue is one facet of the so-called traditionalist question. And SP acknowledges that there are young people who had no Lefebvrist experience who are attached to this liturgy.

Any accusation of “disobedience” for those seeking to avail themselves of the prescriptions of SP is inappropriate.
 
The “whole movement” did not start in disobedience.

It started legally with the 1971 indult for England and Wales. Are you asserting Cardinal Heenan was “disobedient” when he requested that indult?

The Lefebvre issue is one facet of the so-called traditionalist question. And SP acknowledges that there are young people who had no Lefebvrist experience who are attached to this liturgy.

Any accusation of “disobedience” for those seeking to avail themselves of the prescriptions of SP is inappropriate.
OK. Maybe you just want to argue. Let me restate. Ecclesia Dei was commissioned “for the purpose of facilitating full ecclesial communion of priests, seminarians, religious communities or individuals until now linked in various ways to the Fraternity founded by Mons. Lefebvre.” The indults were a result of the findings of Ecclesia Dei. Summorum Ponitificum built on the indults and the response to them. There were certainly obedient Catholics that wanted to keep the EF. But the indults and SP were in reaction to the threat of schism. We know this because the Pope said that was why he was issuing Summorum Pontificum. From the letter to the bishops accompanying SP:
I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church. Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew.
 
SP does not state explicitly that it is merely in response to the Lefebvrist schism. Bishops have used that false argument to claim that only former Lefebvrists can or should be attending Tridentine Masses.

This is about honesty. The Tridentine Mass was never abrogated. SP is about clarifying the Church’s liturgies.
 
First off the Mass isn’t a “show” and secondly I was a teenager in 1964. I understood the Mass. I could read the Latin text and read the English translation. No problem
And what reforms were made by Pius X? All vernacular Mass? Replacing Canon with nine optional Eucharistic prayers? Communion in the hand? Priest facing the people? Removal of Tabernacle?

That’s all it was to them, since they couldn’t understand or participate.

The reforms were decreed by the ecumenical council. Pius X and the monastics merely got the ball rolling. Of course it took a council to effect the actual reform.

Ron
 
" to cling to the TR is disobedient" ???
Its simple logic. Have you heard of the principle in logic of n-n-contradiction? The HS through the council fathers and the pope decreed the Liturgy be reformed. The HS doesn’t make mistakes. Therefore it needed to be reformed. To cling to the TR is to suggest that the HS, the Pope and an ecumenical council, in essence the Catholic Church herself, erred. This cannot happen. Therefore your cling is disobedient to the HS and the Magisterium. Its simple logic. Like protestants who make every individual over into his own pope via sola scriptura, you are setting yourself up as the final authority who can overrule both the Magisterium AND the Holy Spirit! In essence this is protestantism, a protest against the Catholic Church.

Ron
 
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