Debate with a Muslim on Christ

[NDfan]

In talking with a Muslim friend she informed me that the preacher at their Mosque gave a sermon last week on why Jesus was NOT the Son of GOD. His justification went something like this. Christians claim Jesus was the Son of GOD because it was a miraculous birth. But alas Elizabeth was not able to have children yet her and Zechariah gave birth to John the Baptist. So John’s birth was just as much a miracle as Jesus birth. Then he went on to say that we’re all sons and daughters of GOD not just Jesus.

I tried explaining the obvious MAJOR difference that Mary was not unable to have children, she conceived as a virgin through the power of the Holy Spirit. The response was yes but it was still a miracle. Yes it was a miracle just like all creation is a miracle. But this particular birth was not from a man and woman. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Again it was yes but it was still a miracle no different than John the Baptist. I tried my best to explain that it wasn’t so much the miracle aspect of Jesus birth, more that it was through the power of the Holy Spirit. It was a miracle yes but the fact that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary meant that Jesus was now the true Son of GOD. Eventually I felt like I was talking to a brick wall because the canned response was we’re all sons and daughters of GOD and many births are miracles. :banghead:

It just further confirmed for me how much misunderstanding there is of who Jesus was and is.

PEACE

 

[Eucharisted]

Explain to her that it was God who conceived Jesus in Mary’s womb, whereas it was Zachariah who conceived John in Elizabeth’s womb.

 

[iona_scribe]

Christians claim that Jesus is the Son of God because (aside from the miraculous birth) Jesus himself claimed to be the Son of God. And, he had the authority and power to back up those claims (forgiving sins, healing, etc.)

Have you ever heard the C.S. Lewis “Lord, Liar, Lunatic” argument from his book Mere Christianity? I found the quote online:

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. … Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.” [5]"

 

[jakasaki]

John’s birth (The Baptist) was miracilous indeed, and God did this to Elizabeth so He may prepare the ground work for the coming of Jesus.

Yes, we are all daughters and sons of God, but since you are dealing with a muslim, it’s in their head from early on that God cannot have a “Son”.

You need to understand the Son of God in order to explain it to your muslim friend, but alas, I will bet you a chocolate cake that she/he will not listen or comprehend.

Luke chapter 1

God is preparing Elizabeth & Zechariah for the arrival of St. John the Baptist.

11Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense.

12When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear.

13But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John.

14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,

15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

16Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God.

17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—**to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." **

God is now preparing Mother Mary for the arrival of the "Son of God"

29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.

30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.

31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

32**He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." **

 

[DeusVult09]

Tell him that we are all sons of god but that the bible describes Jesus as the unique son of god or the only son of god (τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ) . This indicates that we are not sons of god in the same way as jesus. Then tell him that the Koran also describes Jesus’ birth to be miraculous and the birth of nobody else happened in the same way so it is a unique miracle.

 

[jakasaki]

There is a passage in the koran which every muslim knows by heart ~ I would think ~

Chapter 6 - The Cattle
Verse #101

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

Muslims believe because the author of the koran states that allah cannot have a “son” because he does not have “consort”, you know a spouse or a companion in order to produce a child.

But in the same breath they will tell you that allah can do as he wills or what he wants.

There is nothing from stopping the creator of the universe and the creator of man from creating a son. There was no “consort” when allah created Adam.

Even in the korann the authors state that allah breathed the “spirit” into Mary whom then gave birth to Jesus. So if allah breathed the “spirit” onto Mary, isn’t that producing a child?

So this is all nonsence. If order for muslims to understand the Son of God, they need to dismiss islams teachings for 5 minutes and just listen.

It’s just as bad as a muslim trying to understand the Holy Trinity.

And towards the end of the koran is this ~ again, I would think every muslim knows it ~

Chapter #112 Absoluteness has on 4 verses

1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4 And there is none like unto Him.

See verse #3, they are told from the start.

Here is a suggestion for you, send your friend our way here in the CAF forum.

 

[Hadi]

where does it say that God begot Jesus ?

 

[Siddhartha]

The problem here is that Christians believe God can exist as more than one Person.

Muslims, and Jews, reject that idea.

 

[jakasaki]

where does it say that God begot Jesus ?

If you read the Greek Bible it states:

In the original Greek, that’s μονογενη υἱὸν = beggoten son in English

Here is John 3 #16 in Greek

ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3

16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ **θεὸς **τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν **υἱὸν **τὸν **μονογενῆ **ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

Plus the Virgin birth makes Jesus unique.

My post was addressing the posters inquiry and I also tried to assist NDfan in understanding the muslim mind set.

 

[jakasaki]

The problem here is that Christians believe God can exist as more than one Person.

Muslims, and Jews, reject that idea.

Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah

Muslims believe that Jesus/Isa is the Messiah

Jews reject that idea

 

[Hadi]

Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah

Muslims believe that Jesus/Isa is the Messiah

Jews reject that idea

now it’s “Jesus/Isa” ?? last time you said these are two different persons and that Isa is not Jesus

The islamic Isa is not Jesus Christ Our Lord!

 

[jakasaki]

now it’s “Jesus/Isa” ?? last time you said these are two different persons and that Isa is not Jesus

I still stand by that post

Originally Posted by jakasaki
The islamic Isa is not Jesus Christ Our Lord!

When I write Jesus/Isa I refer to that name when I write about muslims/islam.

When I write Jesus Christ Our Lord, I write about me and Christianity.

 

[Hadi]

I still stand by that post

When I write Jesus/Isa I refer to that name when I write about muslims/islam.

When I write Jesus Christ Our Lord, I write about me and Christianity.

so you believe that Muslims refer to an imaginary Jesus ? do they also refer to an imaginary god ?

 

[jakasaki]

so you believe that Muslims refer to an imaginary Jesus ? do they also refer to an imaginary god ?

Not at all Hadi, I never said that muslims refer to an “imaginary Jesus”.

And,

Not at all Hadi, I never said that muslims refer to an “imaginary god”

Never have I said that!

 

[Hadi]

Not at all Hadi, I never said that muslims refer to an “imaginary Jesus”.

And,

Not at all Hadi, I never said that muslims refer to an “imaginary god”

Never have I said that!

thanks

 

[jakasaki]

In talking with a Muslim friend she informed me that the preacher at their Mosque gave a sermon last week on why Jesus was NOT the Son of GOD.

~ snip ~ …

:banghead:

It just further confirmed for me how much misunderstanding there is of who Jesus was and is.

PEACE

@ Poster:

Why don’t you approach your friend through their way of understanding.

For example:

Jesus/Isa is called Al-Masih in the koran.

That means Jesus the Messiah and He is mentioned over a dozen times with that title.

No one else is the koran has that title, therefore Jesus/Isa must be special/unique.

Ask your friend to explain the word “al-masih” to you and what it means to her/him.

This title is not applied to any messenger, prophets and not even to mohamad.

What does that tell you of Jesus?

 

[jakasaki]

@ Poster:

I was just thinking about another issue.

If Jesus/Isa wasn’t special/unique as the “Son Of God”, why are the muslims await for His return? That would be a good question to ask him/her.

They will say that Jesus/Isa will return to break the “cross” and to kill the “swine” and to make the globe submit to islam and allah.

Well then, …

Why isn’t mohamad comming to break the cross and kill the swine… etc
Why isn’t Moses comming to break the cross and kill the swine… etc.
Why isn’t Abraham comming to break the cross and kill the swine…etc.

Why doesn’t god allah just swipe his almighty finger and break the cross… etc… etc…

By the time you get done with your friend you will be in this position again.-> :banghead:

 

[dcrowmik]

@
They will say that Jesus/Isa will return to break the “cross” and to kill the “swine” and to make the globe submit to islam and allah.

Thanks for this quote. Is this in the Koran? If so, do you know the verse # in koran? I’d like to ask this of one of my office mates.

 

[jakasaki]

Thanks for this quote. Is this in the Koran? If so, do you know the verse # in koran? I’d like to ask this of one of my office mates.

It’s an islamic hadith‘ the muslim Isa (Jesus) is the destroyer of Christianity

Narrated Abu Huraira:

**Allah’s Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts). **

(Book #43, Hadith #656)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

**Allah’s Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). **

Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added “If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): – 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them.” (4.159)

(See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7) (Book #55, Hadith #657)

Bukhari

 

[jakasaki]

Thanks for this quote. Is this in the Koran? If so, do you know the verse # in koran? I’d like to ask this of one of my office mates.

**It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger or Allah (may peace be upon him) observed:

I swear by Allah that the son of Mary will certainly descend as a just judge and he would definitely break the cross, and kill swine and abolish Jizya and would leave the young she-camel and no one would endeavour to (collect Zakat on it). **

Spite, mutual hatred and jealousy against one another will certainly disappear and when he summons people to accept wealth, not even one would do so.

(Book #001, Hadith #0289)

Muslim

Narrated AbuHurayrah:
**The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said:

There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him).

He will descent (to the earth).
When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet.

He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. **

He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah.

Allah will perish all religions except Islam.

He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die.

The Muslims will pray over him. (Book #37, Hadith #4310)

Abudawud