Debating CoC preacher about Infant Baptism

[stevekehl]

Indeed, the above is scripture the inspired Word of God,however,it still did not answer any of my questions.

Care to show me where one of the Apostles expliciltly explains the 3 distinct persons of the Trinitarian doctrine?

Where does one Apostle explicitly mention the canon of Scripture? Where does Scripture mention a canon for the NT?

I have to start this out with an apology. I seem to remember you and I discussing this topic on another post and I said I would answer this very question and then didn’t. I am sorry and I hope you don’t think it was intentional.
True, the word “Trinity” doesn’t appear in Scripture, but the divinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are easily evident after rudimentary study.
Study of the Old Testament shows that the human concept of God was not an accurate description of the true God.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
From the beginning God showed He was more than a singular entity.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Speaking of the MEssiah, child would be born but still be the Everlasting Father.
Twenty seven verses in the Old Testament tell of the Spirit of the Lord coming upon someone, this is the same phrase the KJV uses in the NT when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
So we can see the concept of the Trinity, though not spoken was established in the OT.
The NT begins with evidence of the Trinity.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
At the moment Jesus is placed in Mary’s womb all three are present.
Of course we know Jesus provided evidence of His divinity, but He also described divine attributes to the Holy Spirit
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Surely no angel could abide with different so many people forever, the Comforter is separate from Jesus and the Father, and again we see the three mentioned together.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Here again, all three are involved in teaching and reminding the Apostles, perhaps so they and their disciples could write down Scriptures God intended for us to have.

As for an early Canon of Scripture, I believe there was such Scripture used shortly after Jesus death. Allow me to beat a nearly dead horse and start with Peter.

2Peter 3:15 Don’t forget that the Lord is patient because he wants people to be saved. This is also what our dear friend Paul said when he wrote you with the wisdom that God had given him. 16 Paul talks about these same things in all his letters, but part of what he says is hard to understand. Some ignorant and unsteady people even destroy themselves by twisting what he said. They do the same thing with other Scriptures too.
So Peter accorded all Paul’s letters the status of Scripture, also people were already twisting Scripture at this time. It could be OT Scripture, but could also be early NT Scripture accepted by the apostles.
Also in 1 Peter he addresses his letter to believers scattered around the easter Roman Empire. 2 Peter was to all who believe in God and Jesus Christ. James was written to the twelve tribes scattered around the world, Jude to all who are chosen and loved by God and kept by Jesus, in Revelations John wrote that anyone who reads the prophecy to others will be blessed. The writers fully intended for their letters to be read, copied, passed along, copied again. Paul explicitly writes that his letters should be shared.
Collosians 4:16 After this letter has been read to your people, be sure to have it read in the church at Laodicea. And you should read the letter that I have sent to them.
A pity this letter to Laodicea was lost.

 

[stevekehl]

My friend, Scripture is authoritative, especially in the Catholic Church… don’t ever doubt that. But Scripture tells us that the Church is authoritative. And Scripture tells us to follow the traditions handed down.

So, to put things in their proper place, Scripture is part of a three legged stool:

1. Scripture
2. Sacred Tradition
3. The teaching Magisterium of the Church.

I can see why other churches don’t follow this line of teaching because, well… they only have one of the three legs. So I understand your predicament, Steve.

I’m probably going to get a lot of flack for this post, but I think it illustrates the reason why Protestants don’t follow tradition.
The RCC teaches that Mary lived a sinless life. The Church also teaches that in order to receive communion a RC must believe all the teachings of the Church, if not, they are denied communion. As I understand it, this puts the persons soul in jeopardy because according the John 6 those who don’t eat His flesh and drink His blood have no part in Jesus. Also, not being in good standing with the Church, the person can’t participate in confession and receive absolution and is in danger of dying outside of the state of grace.
If I’m wrong, ignore the rest.
Scriptures tell us that everyone has sinned except Jesus. Paul wrote that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Jesus, being God, can’t fall short of His own glory). Here are a couple more verses
Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures say that sin controls everyone, so that God’s promises will be for anyone who has faith in Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make God a liar, and his message isn’t in our hearts.
Here we see John, the apostle charged with caring for Mary after Jesus death, saying that no one can claim to be sinless. I’m not getting down on Mary, she must have been an incredible woman and I look forward to meeting her someday, but if you want to believe Mary was perfect I would have to disagree. I also disagree with the assertion that I must believe this in order to be saved.
If I am wrong on the doctrine of communion and the state of grace please let me know, just don’t use all caps.

 

[po18guy]

I’m probably going to get a lot of flack for this post, but I think it illustrates the reason why Protestants don’t follow tradition.

They follow the tradition of 1. sola scriptura, 2. the tradition of the sinner’s prayer, 3. the tradition of altar calls and many others, if one stops and realizes that they are actually traditions.

Scriptures tell us that everyone has sinned except Jesus.

Scriptures also tell us (Psalm 14 and Psalm 53) that: “…there is no God” and in (Romans 3:11) that “there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God”.

Is this true? Context. Look at the context of the scriptures. “All have sinned” was OT, and was quoted later to a specific audience. 1** John 1:10** clearly speaks in the present tense at the present time, and to the present audience “If WE say that WE have not sinned…”. This is not a general proclamation, but a specific address.

Some of what you believe that is not in scripture:

The Trinity. Not one NT writer gives evidence that they understood the concept.

The hypostatic union. Not one NT writer gives a hint that they understood this.

Yet, you believe this. Doctrines develop. For good, solid reasons.

 

[jcrichton]

The exact phrase “The word of the Lord” appears 255 in the KJV (I’m not a KJV only person, but a lot of people use it). If 255 prophecies, teachings, messages, etc… were preceded by the word of the Lord I think that is pretty authoritative. This doesn’t include other Scriptures like
Matt 22:43 Jesus replied, "How then could the Spirit lead David to call the Messiah his Lord? David said, Where Jesus affirms the Holy Spirit spoke through King David. Lastly, if the early church and early Cathlic Church didn’t believe in the authority of Scripture, why did men spend so much time and care compiling, preserving and copying Scripture for future generations?

…the term “The Word of the Lord” does not imply that the Holy Scriptures have God’s Authority; rather it is a statement that demonstrate that God has spoken.

Consider the fact that when the issue of Authority arose Jesus never quoted any of the Old Testament Scriptures to demonstrate His Authority–He demanded that we receive His Word as God’s Word because He Came from the Father.

During one particular challenge Jesus forced His attackers to surrender:

23 He had gone into the Temple and was teaching, when the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him and said, ‘What authority have you for acting like this? And who gave you this authority?’ 24 In reply Jesus said to them, ‘And I will ask you a question, just one; if you tell me the answer to it, then I will tell you my authority for acting like this.
25 John’s baptism: what was its origin, heavenly or human?’ And they argued this way among themselves, ‘If we say heavenly, he will retort to us, “Then why did you refuse to believe him?”; 26 but if we say human, we have the people to fear, for they all hold that John was a prophet.’ 27 So their reply to Jesus was, ‘We do not know.’ And he retorted to them, ‘Nor will I tell you my authority for acting like this.’ (St. Matthew 21:23-27)

Jesus consistently points to His Authority, even using John’s Baptism, as Coming from the Father; yet, not all who hear His Word are willing to listen and accept Him (St. John 3:12; 5:47; 6:36; 8:24, 45; 10:25; 10:38); Jesus’ Authority has its Origins in the Father and since everything that the Father has belongs to Christ, He is able (and Willing) to delegate it to the other Paraclete (St. John 16:12-15) and to His Disciples (later known as Apostles):

18 Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.’ (St. Matthew 28:18-20)

Interstingly enough when Jesus Commands His Disciples to do His Will not once does He counsel them to seek the Sacred Writings as their guide; it is Jesus Himself and the Holy Spirit Who Guide and Teach the Church (St. John 14 and 16), hence the Church, not Scrptures is the deposit of Authority (St. Matthew 18:15-17). When Jesus does make a direct referrence to the Sacred Writings as having the Power to Guide, He does so in direct connection to God:

36 But my testimony is greater than John’s: the deeds my Father has given me to perform, these same deeds of mine testify that the Father has sent me. 37 Besides, the Father who sent me bears witness to me himself. You have never heard his voice, you have never seen his shape, 38 and his word finds no home in you because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent. 39 You pore over the scriptures, believing that in them you can find eternal life; it is these scriptures that testify to me, 40 and yet you refuse to come to me to receive life! 41 Human glory means nothing to me. 42 Besides, I know you too well: you have no love of God in you. 43 I have come in the name of my Father and you refuse to accept me; if someone else should come in his own name you would accept him. 44 How can you believe, since you look to each other for glory and are not concerned with the glory that comes from the one God? 45 Do not imagine that I am going to accuse you before the Father: you have placed your hopes on Moses, and Moses will be the one who accuses you. 46 If you really believed him you would believe me too, since it was about me that he was writing; 47 but if you will not believe what he wrote, how can you believe what I say? (St. John 5:36-47)

Jesus attributes the disbelief of the Jews to their ignorance of the Scriptures–yet, not the physical/temporal knowledge as they in deed have scrutinized the Sacred Writings… Jesus forces them to capitulate because their hearts and minds are on man not on God; their choice to rely on human will, intellect, and wisdom keeps them Blind from the Truth: Jesus: the Son, Known through the Holy Spirit, is Yahweh God’s Begotten: the New Covenant: the One that Possesses God’s Full Knowledge and Authoirty!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[kepha1]

Yup. 255 times is correct for “word of the Lord” in the KJV
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22word+of+the+lord%22&qs_version=KJV

“Word of God” 48 times
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22word+of+the+lord%22&qs_version=KJV

255+48=310

Total number of times either one found in 310 pasasges refers to the written word alone:

0

 

[stevekehl]

They follow the tradition of 1. sola scriptura, 2. the tradition of the sinner’s prayer, 3. the tradition of altar calls and many others, if one stops and realizes that they are actually traditions.

Scriptures also tell us (Psalm 14 and Psalm 53) that: “…there is no God” and in (Romans 3:11) that “there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God”.

Is this true? Context. Look at the context of the scriptures. “All have sinned” was OT, and was quoted later to a specific audience. 1** John 1:10** clearly speaks in the present tense at the present time, and to the present audience “If WE say that WE have not sinned…”. This is not a general proclamation, but a specific address.

Some of what you believe that is not in scripture:

The Trinity. Not one NT writer gives evidence that they understood the concept.

The hypostatic union. Not one NT writer gives a hint that they understood this.

Yet, you believe this. Doctrines develop. For good, solid reasons.

First of all, Psalm 14 says “The fool says there is no God.” Psalm 53 says the same thing, and Rom. 3:11 is part of a large quote of OT Scripture that is true, no one is acceptable to God, we have all followed our selfish desires and drifted from God. And you accuse me of taking Scripture out of context. Romas 3:23 is not out of context, Paul is writing that God will forgive anyone who has faith in Christ (because we are unacceptable to God on our own) even though all have sinned. I find it disturbing that you would think that Scripture, I John 1:8, does not apply today. The verse prior to I John 8 says that the blood of Jesus washes away our sins. If we follow your line of thinking the Jesus blood only washed away the sins of the people John was specifically addressing. What other Scriptures do you think have lost their relevance?
I address the Trinity about three posts above yours. Sinners prayer? My denomination, Church of Christ/Christian Church, doesn’t have it. Altar calls? Check out the Pentecostal sermon by Peter, Acts 2, especially verse 40 where Peter begs the audience to be saved.
Hypostatic union? Never heard of it, must be some other denomination. How did we get this far from infant baptism?

 

[stevekehl]

Yup. 255 times is correct for “word of the Lord” in the KJV
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22word+of+the+lord%22&qs_version=KJV

“Word of God” 48 times
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22word+of+the+lord%22&qs_version=KJV

255+48=310

Total number of times either one found in 310 pasasges refers to the written word alone:

0

Writings contain the phrase “The Word of the Lord” or “Word of God” that actually contain the Word of God/Lord - 1.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Whether you believe John is talking about the Bible as a whole or just this particular book it is clear there are no more revelations coming.

 

[stevekehl]

…the term “The Word of the Lord” does not imply that the Holy Scriptures have God’s Authority; rather it is a statement that demonstrate that God has spoken.

Consider the fact that when the issue of Authority arose Jesus never quoted any of the Old Testament Scriptures to demonstrate His Authority–He demanded that we receive His Word as God’s Word because He Came from the Father.

During one particular challenge Jesus forced His attackers to surrender:

23 He had gone into the Temple and was teaching, when the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him and said, ‘What authority have you for acting like this? And who gave you this authority?’ 24 In reply Jesus said to them, ‘And I will ask you a question, just one; if you tell me the answer to it, then I will tell you my authority for acting like this.
25 John’s baptism: what was its origin, heavenly or human?’ And they argued this way among themselves, ‘If we say heavenly, he will retort to us, “Then why did you refuse to believe him?”; 26 but if we say human, we have the people to fear, for they all hold that John was a prophet.’ 27 So their reply to Jesus was, ‘We do not know.’ And he retorted to them, ‘Nor will I tell you my authority for acting like this.’ (St. Matthew 21:23-27)

Jesus consistently points to His Authority, even using John’s Baptism, as Coming from the Father; yet, not all who hear His Word are willing to listen and accept Him (St. John 3:12; 5:47; 6:36; 8:24, 45; 10:25; 10:38); Jesus’ Authority has its Origins in the Father and since everything that the Father has belongs to Christ, He is able (and Willing) to delegate it to the other Paraclete (St. John 16:12-15) and to His Disciples (later known as Apostles):

18 Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.’ (St. Matthew 28:18-20)

Interstingly enough when Jesus Commands His Disciples to do His Will not once does He counsel them to seek the Sacred Writings as their guide; it is Jesus Himself and the Holy Spirit Who Guide and Teach the Church (St. John 14 and 16), hence the Church, not Scrptures is the deposit of Authority (St. Matthew 18:15-17). When Jesus does make a direct referrence to the Sacred Writings as having the Power to Guide, He does so in direct connection to God:

36 But my testimony is greater than John’s: the deeds my Father has given me to perform, these same deeds of mine testify that the Father has sent me. 37 Besides, the Father who sent me bears witness to me himself. You have never heard his voice, you have never seen his shape, 38 and his word finds no home in you because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent. 39 You pore over the scriptures, believing that in them you can find eternal life; it is these scriptures that testify to me, 40 and yet you refuse to come to me to receive life! 41 Human glory means nothing to me. 42 Besides, I know you too well: you have no love of God in you. 43 I have come in the name of my Father and you refuse to accept me; if someone else should come in his own name you would accept him. 44 How can you believe, since you look to each other for glory and are not concerned with the glory that comes from the one God? 45 Do not imagine that I am going to accuse you before the Father: you have placed your hopes on Moses, and Moses will be the one who accuses you. 46 If you really believed him you would believe me too, since it was about me that he was writing; 47 but if you will not believe what he wrote, how can you believe what I say? (St. John 5:36-47)

Jesus attributes the disbelief of the Jews to their ignorance of the Scriptures–yet, not the physical/temporal knowledge as they in deed have scrutinized the Sacred Writings… Jesus forces them to capitulate because their hearts and minds are on man not on God; their choice to rely on human will, intellect, and wisdom keeps them Blind from the Truth: Jesus: the Son, Known through the Holy Spirit, is Yahweh God’s Begotten: the New Covenant: the One that Possesses God’s Full Knowledge and Authoirty!

Maran atha!

Angel

If someone at work tells you, “Hey, the boss wanted you to file these reports.” does that message carry the authority of your boss? Of course it does. How much more so for messages from God, His authority is not implied, it was unarguable. Jesus, being God incarnate, was His own authority, He did not have to harken back to OT prophets, in effect repeating the commands He gave them in the past. The rest of your post I agree with.

 

[po18guy]

First of all, Psalm 14 says “The fool says there is no God.” Psalm 53 says the same thing, and Rom. 3:11 is part of a large quote of OT Scripture that is true, no one is acceptable to God, we have all followed our selfish desires and drifted from God. And you accuse me of taking Scripture out of context. Romas 3:23 is not out of context, Paul is writing that God will forgive anyone who has faith in Christ (because we are unacceptable to God on our own) even though all have sinned. I find it disturbing that you would think that Scripture, I John 1:8, does not apply today. The verse prior to I John 8 says that the blood of Jesus washes away our sins. If we follow your line of thinking the Jesus blood only washed away the sins of the people John was specifically addressing. What other Scriptures do you think have lost their relevance?
I address the Trinity about three posts above yours. Sinners prayer? My denomination, Church of Christ/Christian Church, doesn’t have it. Altar calls? Check out the Pentecostal sermon by Peter, Acts 2, especially verse 40 where Peter begs the audience to be saved.
Hypostatic union? Never heard of it, must be some other denomination. How did we get this far from infant baptism?

Slow down with the accusations! I was only showing how foolish it is to take little scraps of the bible and piece them together. Infant Baptisms: Fine! Even some mainline Protestant denominations agree with it. Relate it to Luke 5:17-26, where the faith of the paralytic’s friends healed him - not even his own faith. See the parental role they acted in by bringing him to Jesus? Same with a parent who requests baptism of their child.

Of course you will disagree, but the principle is in the bible.

 

[jcrichton]

If someone at work tells you, “Hey, the boss wanted you to file these reports.” does that message carry the authority of your boss? Of course it does. How much more so for messages from God, His authority is not implied, it was unarguable. Jesus, being God incarnate, was His own authority, He did not have to harken back to OT prophets, in effect repeating the commands He gave them in the past. The rest of your post I agree with.

Yet, that would suppose that the Jews accepted Jesus as God (which they could do if they accepted the fulfillment of the prophecies, Jesus’ Powerful Revelations and Teaching; the point I was attempting was that Jesus did not rely on the Sacred Scriptures to demonstrate Authority and when speaking on direct Authority He did not Command His Disciples to seek Scriptures but promised the Counsel of the Holy Spirit and gave the Church the final word (St. John 14, 16; St. Matthew 18:15-17). Though it is true that the Bible is authoratative, the Bible alone cannot guide us–it is the Holy Spirit, as the Teacher of the Church, (St. John 16:7-15; 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, 27-28; 1 Corinthians 14:12, 26-33) that does this; as the Body of Christ, the Church is Guided and Taught by the Holy Spirit: hence the formation of Christian Doctrine, compilation of Sacred Writings (the Bible), and the introduction of terms that define the Church/Worship.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[stevekehl]

Slow down with the accusations! I was only showing how foolish it is to take little scraps of the bible and piece them together. Infant Baptisms: Fine! Even some mainline Protestant denominations agree with it. Relate it to Luke 5:17-26, where the faith of the paralytic’s friends healed him - not even his own faith. See the parental role they acted in by bringing him to Jesus? Same with a parent who requests baptism of their child.

Of course you will disagree, but the principle is in the bible.

Why is it that people keep telling me Scripture is not authoritative, then quote Scripture to support another aspect of doctrine. While I’m at it, Scripture in Luke 5:20 says when Jesus saw their faith He said “Man your sins are forgiven you.” He didn’t say, since your friends have faith in me I will forgive your sins. Jesus followed this up by healing the man, which other Scriptures show required faith by the person being healed (Matt. 13:53 - 58, Mark 6:1 - 6).

 

[stevekehl]

Yet, that would suppose that the Jews accepted Jesus as God (which they could do if they accepted the fulfillment of the prophecies, Jesus’ Powerful Revelations and Teaching; the point I was attempting was that Jesus did not rely on the Sacred Scriptures to demonstrate Authority and when speaking on direct Authority He did not Command His Disciples to seek Scriptures but promised the Counsel of the Holy Spirit and gave the Church the final word (St. John 14, 16; St. Matthew 18:15-17). Though it is true that the Bible is authoratative, the Bible alone cannot guide us–it is the Holy Spirit, as the Teacher of the Church, (St. John 16:7-15; 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, 27-28; 1 Corinthians 14:12, 26-33) that does this; as the Body of Christ, the Church is Guided and Taught by the Holy Spirit: hence the formation of Christian Doctrine, compilation of Sacred Writings (the Bible), and the introduction of terms that define the Church/Worship.

Maran atha!

Angel

The Jews did percieve Jesus authority, this is why the leaders conspired to kill Him. If He had no authority He would have been ignored. The Holy Spirit was not promised to the church as an institution, but as individuals. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the Comforter and the Helper, people need comfort and help, not institutions. I Corinthians 12 talks of spiritual gifts, again, gifts to individuals, not a corporate body. As I said in my previous post people keep telling me Scripture is not the only authority but then give me Scripture to support different doctrine.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Jews did percieve Jesus authority, this is why the leaders conspired to kill Him. If He had no authority He would have been ignored. The Holy Spirit was not promised to the church as an institution, but as individuals. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the Comforter and the Helper, people need comfort and help, not institutions. I Corinthians 12 talks of spiritual gifts, again, gifts to individuals, not a corporate body. As I said in my previous post people keep telling me Scripture is not the only authority but then give me Scripture to support different doctrine.

Typically this is the only “reasoning” a Christian (Non-Catholic Christian) will listen to. You guys tend to ignore Sacred Tradition, so we find we are wasting our times tossing it out.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Holy Spirit was not promised to the church as an institution, but as individuals. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the Comforter and the Helper, people need comfort and help, not institutions.

To whom did Jesus promise the Comforter and Helper?

 

[po18guy]

Why is it that people keep telling me Scripture is not authoritative, then quote Scripture to support another aspect of doctrine. While I’m at it, Scripture in Luke 5:20 says when Jesus saw their faith He said “Man your sins are forgiven you.” He didn’t say, since your friends have faith in me I will forgive your sins. Jesus followed this up by healing the man, which other Scriptures show required faith by the person being healed (Matt. 13:53 - 58, Mark 6:1 - 6).

Steve, my brother in Christ, relax for a minute, please!

First: You come in here with your CoC guns blazing, intent on showing that you and your bible are right and that a 1,977 year old Church - which gave you that very same bible - is wrong. Think about that. Since we have bibles too, what does it matter to you that we believe differently? Honestly.

As to infant baptism:

I doubt that you are challenging the Eastern Orthodox - yet you disagree with them
I doubt that you are challenging the Anglicans - yet you disagree with them
I doubt that you are challenging the Methodists - yet you disagree with them.
I doubt that you are challenging the Reformed Church - yet you disagree with them.
I doubt that you are challenging the Nazarenes - yet you disagree with them.
I doubt that you are challenging the Oriental Orthodox or
the Armenian Apostolic Church,
the Assyrian Church of the East,
the Lutherans,
the Armenian Apostolic Church,
the Presbyterians,
the United Church of Christ,
etc., etc., etc.

Yet, you remain certain that the Catholic Church is wrong.

The Word of God, whether in the flesh of Christ, spoken through the successors of His Apostles, or in written form, is authoritative. Here’s the problem: That written form is twisted by the ignorant and unstable, to their opwn destruction (2 Peter 3:16). The bible says this, so I know it’s true.

Let’s examine Nehemiah 8:5-8 and Acts 8:26-35. God sends those with authority to interpret. I have no authority to interpret, and neither do you. Only Christ’s Church has that authority.

Do you think that you are immune to 2 Peter 3:16? If you are not immune to it, by what authority do you interpret scripture?

 

[stevekehl]

Steve, my brother in Christ, relax for a minute, please!

First: You come in here with your CoC guns blazing, intent on showing that you and your bible are right and that a 1,977 year old Church - which gave you that very same bible - is wrong. Think about that. Since we have bibles too, what does it matter to you that we believe differently? Honestly.

As to infant baptism:

I doubt that you are challenging the Eastern Orthodox - yet you disagree with them
I doubt that you are challenging the Anglicans - yet you disagree with them
I doubt that you are challenging the Methodists - yet you disagree with them.
I doubt that you are challenging the Reformed Church - yet you disagree with them.
I doubt that you are challenging the Nazarenes - yet you disagree with them.
I doubt that you are challenging the Oriental Orthodox or
the Armenian Apostolic Church,
the Assyrian Church of the East,
the Lutherans,
the Armenian Apostolic Church,
the Presbyterians,
the United Church of Christ,
etc., etc., etc.

Yet, you remain certain that the Catholic Church is wrong.

The Word of God, whether in the flesh of Christ, spoken through the successors of His Apostles, or in written form, is authoritative. Here’s the problem: That written form is twisted by the ignorant and unstable, to their opwn destruction (2 Peter 3:16). The bible says this, so I know it’s true.

Let’s examine Nehemiah 8:5-8 and Acts 8:26-35. God sends those with authority to interpret. I have no authority to interpret, and neither do you. Only Christ’s Church has that authority.

Do you think that you are immune to 2 Peter 3:16? If you are not immune to it, by what authority do you interpret scripture?

Well, a Catholic started this thread so someone asked me, I was invited in. I started talking about infant baptism if you want to go back to post #158. So if all these all these denominations practice infant bapism then I do disagree with them. If you care to read it I said a person’s baptismal status didn’t concern me, but that I would share what I believed and why. Then we moved on to I can’t trust Scripture. Then it was that I can’t interpret Scripture. Then it was I have to interpret Scripture through the lens of what others have written.
Paul said Scriptural study will lead a person to salvation.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Study of Scripture leads to faith in Jesus and perfecting faith through good works.
And again to Timothy:
1Ti 4:13 Until I arrive, be sure to keep on reading the Scriptures in worship, and don’t stop preaching and teaching.
Scripture should accompany worship, teaching and preaching; not tradition or these other writings I keep hearing about. Luke even praised worshippers who put Paul’s teaching to the test by comparing it to Scripture.
Act 17:10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Nehemiah was leading worship for people returning from exile, decades in a foreign land. If you continue to read it says the people wept and grieved when they heard the Law, which was Scripture. While there were men there to explain the Law the crowd evidently understood enough on their own to be grieved that they had violated God’s law. No one is arguing that the unsaved and newly converted need someone to teach them. And no, I’m not immune from making mistakes, which is why I take Philippians 2:12 so seriously.
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
I don’t just throw our opinions or try to find Scripture that fits a preconcieved doctrine, start with Scripture, find other Scripture that agrees or refutes the interpretation, Scripture interprets Scripture. I think the Catholic teaching is Amicae scripturarum lites, utinam et nostrae.

 

[stevekehl]

To whom did Jesus promise the Comforter and Helper?

Individual believers. John wrote that individuals were to test the spirits.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
John the Baptist, speaking to the crowds said the Holy Spirit would be given to each one by Jesus.
Mark 1:7 And he preached, saying, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
There are others:
1Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
Romans 5:3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
2Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2Timothy 1:14 By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.

 

[po18guy]

Well, a Catholic started this thread so someone asked me, I was invited in. I started talking about infant baptism if you want to go back to post #158. So if all these all these denominations practice infant bapism then I do disagree with them. If you care to read it I said a person’s baptismal status didn’t concern me, but that I would share what I believed and why. Then we moved on to I can’t trust Scripture. Then it was that I can’t interpret Scripture. Then it was I have to interpret Scripture through the lens of what others have written.
Paul said Scriptural study will lead a person to salvation.

I don’t just throw our opinions or try to find Scripture that fits a preconcieved doctrine, start with Scripture, find other Scripture that agrees or refutes the interpretation, Scripture interprets Scripture. I think the Catholic teaching is Amicae scripturarum lites, utinam et nostrae.

Catholics believe that Christ sent Apostles, as we hope you do. We believe that they were empowered to interpret scripture - even to write scripture. OK so far? Those Apostles were empowered by Christ to combat the destructive influence of the human ego, by correctly interpreting that which was written - even that which they themselves wrote. Paul interpreted scripture and wrote scripture, yet he still had to explain himself. Jesus sent Paul, not scripture. Jesus sent the twelve, not scripture. He knew that scripture cannot be denied - but He also sent men with the authority to interpret scripture. That’'s why the verses from Nehemiah and Acts are so important. That is how God functions and how His Church is intened to function.

Peter explains that all scripture can be distorted - but Paul’s in particular. Peter was inspired by God to write, warning all of us that scripture is distorted by those who, being being ignorant and unstable, lack the authority. It is no coincidence that the majority of disagreeing sola scriptura denominations rely so heavily on Paul - whose writings are easily misunderstood and twisted. Some quote Paul more than Jesus! Why? Because Paul’s words can be shaped and molded by the ego into an easily acceptable message. This departs from the truth.

The bottom line is that Christ sent Apostles to teach and interpret. They, including Paul, had to teach and correct those who had already received the Holy Spirit. Why? Because man’s misuse of his free will must be overcome by truth - a perfect reflection of the need for the Incarnation.

 

[po18guy]

Scripture interprets Scripture.

So maintains each of the 35,000 disagreeing denominations - each of which uses the exact same scriptures.

 

[pablope]

Well, a Catholic started this thread so someone asked me, I was invited in. Then we moved on to I can’t trust Scripture. Then it was that I can’t interpret Scripture. Then it was I have to interpret Scripture through the lens of what others have written.

Paul said Scriptural study will lead a person to salvation.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them