Debating CoC preacher about Infant Baptism

[jcrichton]

Jesus had to wait for John to begin his ministry and prepare the way before getting baptised (Ithink this is the analogy you are making). Besides, Jesus being baptised before John’s ministry would have had no significance. The Jews had a ceremonial cleansing ritual in what was called a mikvah (I’m not sure that is spelled right). Men who could afford it had a bath with continual running water, usually a trickle, where they would immerse themselves completely. However, this was only for men and usually affluent men. John’s baptism was for everyone, male and female, rich and poor, outcast and observant. Mirrorring those who Jesus would call to salvation.

I concur, Baptism is not a status symbol; yet, why is it that even when Jesus states that it is necessary there are those who basically say “nay, that’s only for show?”

Jesus made it perfectly clear that the publicans and prostitutes adhered to Yahweh’s Command that they be Baptized and that it was due to their determination not to be Baptized that they would not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven/God (something to be punder, specially since it was free and all could take part of it regardless of gender and status! {But perphaps that was the impediment: “status free” Baptism into the Kindgom of God!}

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The parchments were for writing, but was Paul the only prolific writer of the time. John has 4 writings in Scripture, Peter 2 and dictated a gospel to Mark, is it impossible to imagine these men were writing all along? Is it more likely that Peter only wrote 2 letters in the 35 years after Christ died, or more likely that he wrote many? I think they did write often and the early church had numerous letters for instruction and teaching, possibly the basis for traditions, but also a rudimentary scriptural base. For whatever reason these writings were lost to time, war, persecution, natural disaster, or some were rejected when the New Testament was compiled. This is one of the things I want to talk to God about when my time is up (if such desires carry over to eternity). I would like to see all the letters and writings of the apostles, like the letter to Laodicea that Paul references in Colossians 4. I think you are wrong about the books, Paul refered to the OT as Scripture or to the prophet or writer he was quoting. I don’t think he would have called Scripture books. You are right that we don’t know what they are.

I’m talking about things like Mary’s bodily translation to heaven or communion must be taken weekly. If someone wants to believe these things that’s fine, but they have no bearing on salvation. Our church takes communion weekly based on Acts 20:7. However Jesus said remember me when you do this, so some people think that communion every week will result in it beoming just another ritual. I have a friend who is a Messianic Jew and they only take communion during Passover. Since this has no bearing on salvation, people can believe and practice what they want about the frequency of communion.

Then how do you know who is in Purgatory, if anyone?

I’ve been on a couple threads like this ad nauseum. We’ll just have to disagree.
Enjoy the Fourth Talk to you soon.

…the problem is that you are speaking of a “church” devoid of history–if you are to accept Christ’s Word, then you have to accept the Church… not because I say but because Christ said so. He Founded the Church (His Community) not on an invisible plane of existence where anyone can claim to have the authority to interprete and teach; but He founded her on Kephas/Cephas, a real man, in real time; it is by rejecting the succession of the Apostles that you (and all invisible church believers) can found your spirituality; however, Scriptures reject that idea and St. Paul (which many non-Catholics like to quote) stated that we have One Faith, One Baptism, One Gospel, One Holy Spirit, One Lord, One Body, One God–go figure how One means anything and everything as long as you are connected invisibly and claim Jesus as Lord (“not all who call Me Lord…”).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Cat_Herder]

Most Protestants have faith confused with grace, which is why they reject infant baptism. Since they do not believe that baptism imparts grace, they do not see a need to baptize until after the person is old enough to express faith.

So first you need to eliminate the confusion between grace and faith by debunking salvation by faith alone. See Baptism: the Sinner’s Prayer is All Wet. Faith Alone? The Abraham/Bin Laden Dilemma and Wilted TULIP: No Love for Calvinism may also help.

Next you have to establish that Baptism is a sacrament, which requires establishing that there are sacraments (rituals that impart grace) in the first place. That in turn requires establishing that the Christ’s Church is supposed to have rituals.

You can do all of that by examining the one sacrament that no Protestant is willing to get rid of: Matrimony. Please read **Shotgun Marriage: Authority and Sacraments ** to see how to do that.

 

[stevekehl]

I wanted to add that I always find it odd that people try and find the “interpretation” of a word, and ignore how the Greek-speaking people of the 1st century interpreted ekklesia. From the letters of Clement and Ignatius, it seems obvious that they interpret it as Church, the way Catholics interpret it today. I mean, Clement knew Peter and Paul, while Ignatius knew Peter and John. Those are pretty good pedigrees, if you ask me.

Hope you are staying cool and dry. I live about 90 minutes from Cleveland, one hour on country roads and 30-40 minutes on the interstate. When Jesus tallks about having the church settle disagreements I believe he was talking about the group, the Greek word is still ekklesia. I believe Jesus would not want disputes settled in a back room and news spread by gossip, but in the open so no misunderstandings take place. Clement and Ignatius would not have written in English and probably would have used Greek, and used ekklesia as well, or in Latin and I don’t know the Latin equivalent. Found an interesting verse in 2 Corinthians today
2Corinthians 11:28 Besides everything else, each day I am burdened down, worrying about all the churches.
If the early church was one church, why does Paul say all the churches.

 

[stevekehl]

]

Paul was the only known prolific writer. And he wrote the epistles only after he had preached and established churches. I do not know how many, but I think at least half were written when he was in prison in Rome. He wrote because he could not be physically present. That is why he asked Timothy to bring parchment, he was about to die, and bring his books. Nowhere in his other epistles does he ask for this.

He didn’t ask because the letters to Timothy were more personal than the letters of instruction. But you have restated my proposal, Paul was the only known prolific writer, there is no reason to believe all the apostles wrote letters to churches and to each other (like Paul’s letters to Timothy). With good roads, established shipping, and Pax Romana there is no reason to discount a regular discourse between the apostles and churches.

And no, Peter did not dictate the gospel. From what I can gather, Peter checked the outline, but Mark mainly wrote from memory, and Peter was crucified before Mark could finish it.

I’ve read in The Case for Christ and an essay by Gary Blomberg that Mark was the first Gospel written. Since Luke and Acts were written before Paul (and Peter) were martyred Mark predates Peter’s death. That’s neither here nor there.

They (the apostles) were fishermen. Not scribes.

Facebook proves you don’t have to be a scribe to communicate.

And who decides which have a bearing and no bearing on salvation? You? And how do you know they have no bearing? And from my observation, this is the biggest issue with protestants…their own private judgement versus that of the teaching of the Church. So you end up trying to conform God’s will to yourself instead of conforming yourself to God’s will. See, now you are making yourself the authority. And is that what God intended?

Jesus gave us very few commandments concerning salvation; believe in Him, be born of water and the Spirit, love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; love your neighbor as yourself. My judgement is not my own, but what is in Scripture. I don’t have to believe in pennance, the infalability of the pope, or the translation of Mary to be saved. If these things were part of what the first Christians believed then why didn’t the Church include the writings of Origen or Ignatius or Polycarp in the Bible?

I do not know why you asked this? I think nobody would know. We may have some certainty, but not 100%.

Somebody has to decide who is in purgatory, how do you know who to pray for? Unless I’m not understanding Purgatory. People who were pretty good but died outside of a state of grace go there to be purged of their sin and then go to heaven. Prayers of those still living speed up this process. If this is wrong let me know.
Hope you had a great holiday. God Bless.

 

[pablope]

QUOTE=stevekehl;8082547]

]

He didn’t ask because the letters to Timothy were more personal than the letters of instruction. But you have restated my proposal, Paul was the only known

prolific writer, there is no reason to believe all the apostles wrote letters to churches and to each other (like Paul’s letters to Timothy). With good roads, established shipping, and Pax Romana there is no reason to discount a regular discourse between the apostles and churches.

Yeah, plus bandits to raid travellers, the Church being underground and under persecution, any christian writing had to be smuggled, not an easy task, my friend.

I’ve read in The Case for Christ and an essay by Gary Blomberg that Mark was the first Gospel written. Since Luke and Acts were written before Paul (and Peter) were martyred Mark predates Peter’s death. That’s neither here nor there.

I checked and ECFs have conflicting dates, but the most accepted tradition is he wrote it/completed it after Peter’s death. He may have started early, but did not complete it till after.

Facebook proves you don’t have to be a scribe to communicate.

You keep thinking 21st century. There was no FB then, parchment was expensive, and needed schooling to learn to write. Not everybody went to school then, and could afford it.

Here is something for you to research: Look at the literacy rates in the middle ages, before the printing press. Then extrapolate of transpose this rate to the time of the Apostles. Would it be greater or less than the middlge ages?

Jesus gave us very few commandments concerning salvation; believe in Him, be born of water and the Spirit, love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; love your neighbor as yourself.

Agreed, but these are just some, not all.

My judgement is not my own, but what is in Scripture.

It is in how you interpret what Scripture means…ergo, private judgement.

I don’t have to believe in pennance, the infalability of the pope, or the translation of Mary to be saved.

This is what you personnaly believe, but is it in line what the Church teaches, what the early Christians believed?

I would suggest a good book here…The Fathers Know Best by Jimmy Akin, based on the early writings of the successors of the Apostles and what the early Christians believed, and compare it with what the CC teaches to this day.

If these things were part of what the first Christians believed then why didn’t the Church include the writings of Origen or Ignatius or Polycarp in the Bible?

There were, they did not just make it in the final canon. Have you heard of the protoevangelum of James, or the Account of the Dormition by John the Theologian?

It will take a lot of reading, but look at the councils of Rome or 1Nicea, of Hippo, of Carthage that settled the final canon. These should be between AD 325 to AD 397 or so.

Here is a link and you can read them to your hearts content:
earlychristianwritings.com/

Excerpt from Clement 1:

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done sol from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe.

Somebody has to decide who is in purgatory, how do you know who to pray for? Unless I’m not understanding Purgatory. People who were pretty good but died outside of a state of grace go there to be purged of their sin and then go to heaven. Prayers of those still living speed up this process. If this is wrong let me know.

God decides who is in purgatory and decides who is not. We pray for all souls in purgatory. Some who we personally know, we offer prayers. If they are not in purgatory, the prayers are applied by God to someone else, no prayer is wasted.

A personal example, my aunt died of cancer in the mid-sixties, my mom still offers a mass for her every year at her death anniversary, to this day.

You have a pretty good idea. More here: catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Hope you had a great holiday. God Bless.

We had to cancel our camping plans,so stayed home. My daughter said this is one of the times she got bored on the 4th…I said bummer.

God bless…

 

[NotWorthy]

Hope you are staying cool and dry. I live about 90 minutes from Cleveland, one hour on country roads and 30-40 minutes on the interstate. When Jesus tallks about having the church settle disagreements I believe he was talking about the group, the Greek word is still ekklesia. I believe Jesus would not want disputes settled in a back room and news spread by gossip, but in the open so no misunderstandings take place. Clement and Ignatius would not have written in English and probably would have used Greek, and used ekklesia as well, or in Latin and I don’t know the Latin equivalent. Found an interesting verse in 2 Corinthians today
2Corinthians 11:28 Besides everything else, each day I am burdened down, worrying about all the churches.
If the early church was one church, why does Paul say all the churches.

That’s easy. There is a Church in Sour Lake where I live. There is a Church in China 10 miles down the road. We are two Churches that are part of the one Church that Jesus built. Paul is worrying about the Churches in Thessalonica, Galatia, Corinth, Rome, etc., etc. that all made up the One Church that Jesus built.

But regarding Clement and Ignatius, yes, they used ekklesia. But they used it in the context that we used for the Catholic Church today. Take a look at their writings and you will see how your Christian forefathers viewed Christianity. It would make you take a second look at the Catholic Church, my friend.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Then how do you know who is in Purgatory, if anyone?
.

This forum has a publication that has won awards called “This Rock”

Here is a publication they had about Purgatory:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

IMHO, this is much more difficult than that. But you must understand that RCs have to abide to what the church interprets. But you cannot look at it on Purgatory alone and you have to understand that the RC believes in free will and in good works as a must for salvation.

Paul was clear to say that our battle is not of the flesh but of the spirit.

I have a difficult time accepting the notion of Purgatory because it minimizes Jesus Christ PERFECT sacrifice for our sins.

So in essence according to the RC Purgatory, we ALL go there. It is impossible for us to be free of sin and it requires a lifetime of walking in our Lord’s grace and His conviction,

NONE of us is ever Holy enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven without God’s grace and Faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to His Word.

 

[NotWorthy]

This forum has a publication that has won awards called “This Rock”

Here is a publication they had about Purgatory:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

IMHO, this is much more difficult than that. But you must understand that RCs have to abide to what the church interprets. But you cannot look at it on Purgatory alone and you have to understand that the RC believes in free will and in good works as a must for salvation.

Paul was clear to say that our battle is not of the flesh but of the spirit.

I have a difficult time accepting the notion of Purgatory because it minimizes Jesus Christ PERFECT sacrifice for our sins.

So in essence according to the RC Purgatory, we ALL go there. It is impossible for us to be free of sin and it requires a lifetime of walking in our Lord’s grace and His conviction,

NONE of us is ever Holy enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven without God’s grace and Faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to His Word.

It’s simple. Christ says only the perfect will be found in heaven. Are you and I perfect? I don’t think so (although I can certainly only speak for myself).

The Church simply teaches that Purgatory is the cleansing process where we are made perfect. We don’t know if this takes a second, or a million years. I’ve heard that it mainly involves our re-visiting all of our sins and what they did to other people.

Jesus Christ’s Sacrifice is perfect, but it doesn’t make us perfect. How many people have you seen that have been saved and are perfect? I don’t know of any.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It’s simple. Christ says only the perfect will be found in heaven. Are you and I perfect? I don’t think so (although I can certainly only speak for myself).

Neither am I

The Church simply teaches that Purgatory is the cleansing process where we are made perfect. We don’t know if this takes a second, or a million years. I’ve heard that it mainly involves our re-visiting all of our sins and what they did to other people.

Jesus Christ’s Sacrifice is perfect, but it doesn’t make us perfect. How many people have you seen that have been saved and are perfect? I don’t know of any.

Once our sins are forgiven they cannot be revisited or it will fall into condemnation and Paul was very clear about that in Romans 8.

I don’t know what perfect for us is since I am human. I only know that God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is perfect.

CCC States:

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

The question is:

What does the RCC interprets as “imperfectly purified”? I know my Bishop used to say a lot of times: “It’s a mystery of Faith”…

I have never been able to reconcile this interpretation without felling it is a little to “Mediumish…”.

 

[NotWorthy]

Once our sins are forgiven they cannot be revisited or it will fall into condemnation and Paul was very clear about that in Romans 8.

I don’t know what perfect for us is since I am human. I only know that God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is perfect.

CCC States:

I never said our sins are “reforgiven”. As you, I would deny it. Purgatory IS NOT forgiveness of sins. Nobody is claiming that, and if they did, I would join you in denying it.

The question is:

What does the RCC interprets as “imperfectly purified”? I know my Bishop used to say a lot of times: “It’s a mystery of Faith”…

I have never been able to reconcile this interpretation without felling it is a little to “Mediumish…”.

First of all, you’ll have to explain “mediumish”.

The best way to explain “imperfectly purified” is with an example I’ll bet you’ve heard before.

If I break my neighbors window because I was doing something I wasn’t supposed to be doing, and then I sincerely ask God for forgiveness. You would agree that God would forgive my sin, right? The problem is, the neighbors window is still broke. Also, I may have caused him to get angry because he told me 1000 times not to play baseball outside his house. My sin caused him to sin, in addition to the fact that my sin cost him money.

Purgatory purges us from the affects of this sin. Do I know exactly how? No… but that is a mystery of faith!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Purgatory purges us from the affects of this sin. Do I know exactly how? No… but that is a mystery of faith!

:hammering:



Mediumish was meant to mean spiritism, in like talking to the dead and such.

 

[rdscheirer]

How did this thread go from infant baptism to purgatory? When confronted by non-Catholics about Baptism I refer them to Acts where Peter baptised households- i.e. everyone in the household which would seem to include infants and children.Response?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

How did this thread go from infant baptism to purgatory? When confronted by non-Catholics about Baptism I refer them to Acts where Peter baptised households- i.e. everyone in the household which would seem to include infants and children.Response?

Jesus and the apostles were pretty clear about baptism, young or old. You just need Faith first.

 

[stevekehl]

That’s easy. There is a Church in Sour Lake where I live. There is a Church in China 10 miles down the road. We are two Churches that are part of the one Church that Jesus built. Paul is worrying about the Churches in Thessalonica, Galatia, Corinth, Rome, etc., etc. that all made up the One Church that Jesus built.

But regarding Clement and Ignatius, yes, they used ekklesia. But they used it in the context that we used for the Catholic Church today. Take a look at their writings and you will see how your Christian forefathers viewed Christianity. It would make you take a second look at the Catholic Church, my friend.

I understand there are individual churches, but wouldn’t it make sense that Paul would write I am worried about the church, which would include everyone. This makes me think that if Paul had used the singular people would ask “Which church?” Instead he uses churches to be clear that he means all the individual churches. Haven’t read any ECFs, you see I have trouble getting to this website more than a couple times a week, nursing school, kids, church (is there a smilie that’t asleep?)

 

[NotWorthy]

:hammering:



Mediumish was meant to mean spiritism, in like talking to the dead and such.

Oh, like conjuring up the dead and binding them for information and what-not!

How is our time spent in Purgatory even remotely like mediumishnessity

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus and the apostles were pretty clear about baptism, young or old. You just need Faith first.

Hmmm… “let the children come to me, for the kingdom of heaven surely belongs to those such as these”… I don’t see “… once they have faith” in there.

Is that a King James thing?

 

[NotWorthy]

I understand there are individual churches, but wouldn’t it make sense that Paul would write I am worried about the church, which would include everyone. This makes me think that if Paul had used the singular people would ask “Which church?” Instead he uses churches to be clear that he means all the individual churches. Haven’t read any ECFs, you see I have trouble getting to this website more than a couple times a week, nursing school, kids, church (is there a smilie that’t asleep?)

But Paul may not be worried about all the individual churches. Wasn’t Ephesians an example of a people that had taken well to the word, where the Corinthians kept trying to find a way to stir up trouble.

I would be worried about the churches, in any event, without worrying about the Church, because Christ promised to be with the Church until the end of the age.

 

[NotWorthy]

Haven’t read any ECFs, you see I have trouble getting to this website more than a couple times a week, nursing school, kids, church (is there a smilie that’t asleep?)

Sure, take your pick! :yawn: :coffeeread:

 

[stevekehl]

This forum has a publication that has won awards called “This Rock”

Here is a publication they had about Purgatory:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

Thanks for the link Isiaih 45 9. A couple questions though. How are we perfected in Purgatory? If we can’t be perfected in this life why would Purgatory be different?
What about these verses?
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
2Co 5:8 We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.
I know you aren’t an expert and have questions of your own. Can anyone else clarify.