Debating Ecumenism

[Warren_Stassi]

This should be good, grabs popcorn.

I have a little trouble throwing out 19 hundred years of church teaching and now making the prayers you suggest.During those 19hundred years didn,t we have anyone as guifted as your three?

 

[thecoach]

soo basically, if people dont see Catholicism as you do, they are not really Catholics? wow

Well, for starters, in the Gospel Jesus teaches that even those “not of his company” are for Him, and reproved his followers for trying to inhibit them. I dont see where He said salvation is only in his group, the Church states this, so there is a divergence right there. Whats funny is, I throw these examples out commonly, yet you try to play semantics and say that I am skirting the issue.

Now on another note, I was looking through my bookcase and found a copy of Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth. I decided to thumb through it, and found myself reading it. Now I am confused all the more about my spirituality. I just dont know.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Well, for starters, in the Gospel Jesus teaches that even those “not of his company” are for Him, and reproved his followers for trying to inhibit them. I dont see where He said salvation is only in his group, the Church states this, so there is a divergence right there. Whats funny is, I throw these examples out commonly, yet you try to play semantics and say that I am skirting the issue.

Now on another note, I was looking through my bookcase and found a copy of Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth. I decided to thumb through it, and found myself reading it. Now I am confused all the more about my spirituality. I just dont know.

Coach,

If you have a specific question; or something that really seems to be a contradiction that you can’t reconcile, please let me know and I’ll do my best to explain it. I won’t try to reconcile anything new that is contrary to what the Church has always taught, but if there is something the Church has always taught, which you consider contrary to what the Bible teaches (or just contrary to what makes sense to you), please post it and, like I said, I’ll do my best to clear it up.

For now, I’ll leave you with one quote to consider. Jesus told his apostles “If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” (Mt 18:17. This is translated in one Bible as “if he will not hear the Church, let him be excommunicated”.

 

[old_altar_boy]

Well, for starters, in the Gospel Jesus teaches that even those “not of his company” are for Him, and reproved his followers for trying to inhibit them. I dont see where He said salvation is only in his group, the Church states this, so there is a divergence right there. Whats funny is, I throw these examples out commonly, yet you try to play semantics and say that I am skirting the issue.

Now on another note, I was looking through my bookcase and found a copy of Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth. I decided to thumb through it, and found myself reading it. Now I am confused all the more about my spirituality. I just dont know.

He did say though that no man comes to the Father except through Me, did he not? By that I would infer that rejection of Christ results in rejection of God as well and hence salvation. Since Christ established the Church, through Peter, as the vehicle of salvation, and since as Catholics we believe that our Church is the direct descendent of that Church, it would seem to me that membership in our particular Church, the Catholic Church, is indeed nescessary for salvation.

 

[thecoach]

Coach,

If you have a specific question; or something that really seems to be a contradiction that you can’t reconcile, please let me know and I’ll do my best to explain it. I won’t try to reconcile anything new that is contrary to what the Church has always taught, but if there is something the Church has always taught, which you consider contrary to what the Bible teaches (or just contrary to what makes sense to you), please post it and, like I said, I’ll do my best to clear it up.

For now, I’ll leave you with one quote to consider. Jesus told his apostles “If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” (Mt 18:17. This is translated in one Bible as “if he will not hear the Church, let him be excommunicated”.

Thanks. I guess in a way I have heard so much that I am now more confused than ever what the Church actually does teach, what makes a Catholic a Catholic.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Thanks. I guess in a way I have heard so much that I am now more confused than ever what the Church actually does teach, what makes a Catholic a Catholic.

I’ll quote from the Catechism of Pius X. It is in easy to understand question and answer format. This may or may not answer you questions:

The Church in Particular

8 Q. What is the Catholic Church?

A. The Catholic Church is the Union or Congregation of all the baptised who, still living on earth, profess the same Faith [same doctrines] and the same Law of Jesus Christ, participate in the same Sacraments, and obey their lawful Pastors, particularly the Roman Pontiff.

9 Q. State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church?

A. To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptised, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.

12 Q. The many societies of persons who are baptised but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

A. No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.

13 Q. How can the Church of Jesus Christ be distinguished from the numerous societies or sects founded by men, and calling themselves Christian?

A. From the numerous societies or sects founded by men and calling themselves Christian, the Church of Jesus Christ is easily distinguished by four marks: She is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

14 Q. Why is the Church called One?

A. The true Church is called One, because her children of all ages and places are united together in the same faith, in the same worship, in the same law; and in participation of the same Sacraments, under the same visible Head, the Roman Pontiff.

**15 Q. Can there not be several Churches?

A. No, there cannot be more than one Church;** for as there is but one God, one Faith and one Baptism, there is and can be but one true Church.

16 Q. But are not the faithful of a whole Nation or Diocese also called a Church?

A. The faithful of a whole Nation or Diocese are also called a Church, but they ever remain mere parts of the Universal Church and form but one Church with her.

22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?

A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.

23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?

A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government.

24 Q. To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?

A. No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.

25 Q. Who are the living members of the Church?

A. The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.

26 Q. And who are the dead members?

A. The dead members of the Church are the faithful in mortal sin.

**27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church**.

28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

**29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation**.

The last answer gives, what could be called, the “exception”. In individual circumstances a person who does not reject the Church, but who is visibly separated from it through no fault of his own, can possibly be united to it by way of desire. This desire can suffice for salvation.

The the entire Catechism can be read here: ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM#Apostles%20Creed

 

[sphilomena]

Thanks. I guess in a way I have heard so much that I am now more confused than ever what the Church actually does teach, what makes a Catholic a Catholic.

Well that’s not a good thing! But regarding the topic, Dietrich Von Hildebrand has interesting comments on ecumenism, as on many topics. I think it is in “The Trojan Horse in the City of God”, fabulous book. The man had such insight, which is why Pope Pius XII praised him so highly, calling him the 20th century Doctor of the Church.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Thanks. I guess in a way I have heard so much that I am now more confused than ever what the Church actually does teach, what makes a Catholic a Catholic.

I have an encyclical to recommend. It was written by Pope Pius XII. It deals with the nature of the Church and exposes some errors that were beginning to emerge. I think it will clear things up.

Here’s the link: papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

 

[Warren_Stassi]

19 hundred years of the finest minds Christanity could produce. Now fifty years later it is comforting to know that a super intellect has been produced which willingly negates that 19 hundred years. Did St. Paul know he was not being a good ecumentist when he tried to convert the Jews to christinaty?