Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[TheLittleLady]

Flashbacks of “Office Space”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If this attitude would characterize Catholics on this forum I know my ears would be more open. It’s not that we just won’t listen, it is more that what I see does not match up with what I hear.

In fairness, we put up with a good many Protestants and other non-Catholics on this forum who come on here making statements in a disrespectful way, especially since the forum is called “Catholic Answers”, not “General Discussion of Religion”. I would hope that none of us would go into the house of a decent person of whatever faith and start telling him in his own house that he’s an idolator or going against God, etc. That’s how some people approach this forum. Like we Catholics, on our own forums, need to prove to them that Catholicism is okay or correct (which largely can’t be “proven” because much of it is a matter of faith). If this were a bar and we had bouncers (or moderators more like the old forum had), these people would be shown the door in a hurry.

I try to be tolerant, thinking that if someone cares enough to come here and be curious then maybe that’s a good thing (either in terms of encouraging tolerance or even possible conversion), but some of the attitude I get from people who come on here and expect me to defend my faith on a Catholic forum that I actually joined more for prayers and talking to other Catholics than for defending myself against Rude Mr. Protestant/ Non-Christian/ Non-Believer…well it’s hard to have a lot of sympathy. I try, but it is difficult.

 

[mkoopman]

Keep trying and God will make you a saint. He likes to do that.

 

[Mary888]

If they won’t listen, where is the debate?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

If this attitude would characterize Catholics on this forum I know my ears would be more open. It’s not that we just won’t listen, it is more that what I see does not match up with what I hear.

In fairness, we put up with a good many Protestants and other non-Catholics on this forum who come on here making statements in a disrespectful way, especially since the forum is called “Catholic Answers”, not “General Discussion of Religion”. I would hope that none of us would go into the house of a decent person of whatever faith and start telling him in his own house that he’s an idolator or going against God, etc. That’s how some people approach this forum. Like we Catholics, on our own forums, need to prove to them that Catholicism is okay or correct (which largely can’t be “proven” because much of it is a matter of faith). If this were a bar and we had bouncers (or moderators more like the old forum had), these people would be shown the door in a hurry.

I try to be tolerant, thinking that if someone cares enough to come here and be curious then maybe that’s a good thing (either in terms of encouraging tolerance or even possible conversion), but some of the attitude I get from people who come on here and expect me to defend my faith on a Catholic forum that I actually joined more for prayers and talking to other Catholics than for defending myself against Rude Mr. Protestant/ Non-Christian/ Non-Believer…well it’s hard to have a lot of sympathy. I try, but it is difficult.

Ok, I am truly sorry if I have become rude or obtrusive. I have been on CAF for two years and have learned a lot about Catholicism.

Only recently have I come on the Apologetics forum and have myself wondered if I should be here.I had stayed with the Non-Catholic section but have become mostly bored with it. I sometimes forget this is not the Non-Catholic forum.

I like your analogy about coming into someone’s house and being belligerent. I respect that. Neither do I expect to be invited into someone’s house and be told I am going to hell because I am not in their church.

I have been spending way too much time on the computer anyway.

Have a great year!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I haven’t found you particularly rude. Some other people who have come on here demanding “proofs” of this and that or making remarks about the Blessed Mother/ saints are not as nice as you, however.

I’m also not saying that if a Protestant/ Catholic is rude or disrespectful, that somehow justifies the Catholic/ Protestant on the other side being disrespectful. Just saying that it works both ways.

I myself would kind of wonder why anyone would spend time on this forum if they weren’t (a) Catholic, (b) seriously considering becoming Catholic, (c ) having to deal regularly with Catholic friends or relatives that they wished to understand better. If one is not in any of those categories, it would be kind of like if I joined a fishing forum when I don’t fish, aren’t planning on going fishing soon, and don’t have people in my friends and family circle who fish. Seems like there would be more interesting forums out there for me to select.

 

[steve-b]

Maybe because I was never a protestant I don’t understand this, but WHY are they so close-minded and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church? Were they raised that way? The ex Catholics can be just as bad if not worse, and I find often turned against the Church for marriage reasons (divorced, wanted to remarry, Church wouldn’t let them, so they went to a protestant sect that would let them).

After one is given the truth, about the Catholic Church and her teachings, then

Division, sedition, schism. dissension, heresy, are all condemned activities as are those who are in these sins. That’s not from me or my opinion. It’s scripture

Division / dissension διχοστασίαι , http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm , Rm 16:17, Gal 5:20. Gal 5:21. The consequences? (Gal 5:21] “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. “ IOW they go to hell when they die in that sin.

Schism σχίσματα , http://bibleapps.com/greek/4978.htm = schism (division) Ref: Clement of Rome.(Strong’s) shows a rent took place in Corinth which any kind of division is condemned, but when it is from the pope it is schism

Heresy / divisive./ schism αἱρετικὸν , http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm , Titus 3:10-11, disposed to form sects, heresies, schisms etc. The consequences? “After warning one once or twice, have nothing more to do with them, They are perverted, and in serious sin, That person is self condemned.”

AnnetteJoan:

One question my son asked me, and I had to admit I did not know the answer: a heretic is a baptized Catholic who has chosen to deny certain central dogmas of the Faith (Luther having been a good example).

some Definitions, from the CCC

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

It’s post baptismal denial of a Catholic truth

AnnetteJoan:

But what is someone who was raised in a protestant group, never baptized Catholic, and simply believes as they do because they don’t know any better? What category do they fall into? Heretic? Schismatic?

Most Protestants have valid baptism. Next is the operative condition. Once someone who is validly baptized is made aware of the truth, and THEN refuses to act on it, THEN the negative consequences fall on them.

AnnetteJoan:

I remember learning that there are Infidels, Apostates, Schismatics, and Heretics: Infidels are the unbaptized; Apostates are …

Look again at CCC paragraph 2089 above.

 

[AnnetteJoan]

I cannot call them “brethren”, I prefer what the saints of the Church, such as St Thomas More, called them.

I see them as people needing salvation, who are misguided by heresy.

 

[NiceIsAsNiceDoes]

Here’s the thing. Those people you are trying to convince (the close-minded ones) feel the same way about you. They wonder why Catholics are so close-minded and arrogant to believe their Church is the one true church. You are wasting your time, effort, and treasure in trying to convert them by debating with them. You do you, and let them do them. At least they subscribe to a religion that shares some values you (I am sure) can appreciate. Remember that song “They will know we are Christians by our love”? It is so true. You can substitute “Catholics” for “Christians” if you like. It really is true. Model Catholic behavior and values to your protestant brothers and sisters. It is way more effective than debating them and trying to prove you are right about all things religion.

 

[NiceIsAsNiceDoes]

Love this response, JetteZ. Valid points to remember on many levels. Thanks for sharing.

 

[NiceIsAsNiceDoes]

I think these presumptions are most unkind and quite inaccurate. . How would you feel if a Protestant you disagreed with said the same thing about Catholics? They could, you know. Of course you would say they are wrong. How does this help spread the love of the faith for the Catholic church?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I cannot call them “brethren”, I prefer what the saints of the Church, such as St Thomas More, called them.

With all due respect, where did you learn to take this attitude towards Protestants? Is this something you were taught by your family member who influenced you to convert?

I have a large number of Protestant relatives. Some are relatives by marriage and some are my father’s family, as Dad was a convert. They are not only my “brethren”, they are my family and my ancestors.

Catholics do not exist in a vacuum, and while sometimes it may be hard to be tolerant of a particular Protestant or one may dislike how a particular group of them behaved at some point in history (Catholics are hardly lily-white in that regard either), it does not somehow make billions of other Christians not our “brethren”. Especially when their blood is running in my veins or my spouse’s veins…

 

[Lara]

Modeling Catholic behaviour to Protestants doesn’t work to change hearts or minds. First of all, what does that modelling look like? If it’s being really patient, or “nice”, the other party may just think they’ve met a nice person today, and not look for reasons. Atheists can be nice too, and we don’t look for reasons when they are. Also, almost everyone thinks they themselves are loving, even though they would advocate for an unborn child to be ripped apart in the womb, which is not loving to the mother, and certainly not to the child. Also, if you are really kind, people might take advantage of you before they try to mirror your behaviour. They may make you listen to them all evening, because they think they’ve encountered a nice listener, for example.

Secondly, Catholic behaviour is often unappealing to others. Being Catholic means standing up for the truth in tough situations, and saying things that people don’t want to hear. As Catholics, we are rebels, and are often seen as rebellious.

I don’t feel debating is a waste of time. Many people have converted because somebody debated with them. The more avidly they debate a point, the more likely they will come to know the truth of the Church if they met with a good apologist. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to be a good apologist.

I don’t give a rat’s tail if people think I’m closed-minded or arrogant when I believe the Church to hold the fullness of truth. Anybody who knows the truth in any field comes off as rigid to those who do not. Is it rigid to believe that people should wear seatbelts while traveling in a car? Is it rigid to believe you should stop at a red light? Are the Ten Commandments too rigid? Was God closed-minded? In my view, definitely. He made decisions that don’t allow for us to disrespect him. The road will be narrow, and few will make it. Sounds pretty closed-minded.

 

[JetteZ]

And what is your success record?

As a former Protestant, I can tell you my path to conversion, thankfully, did not have people with the attitude you have described. It did have a wonderful priest (shout out to Fr. Gibbons), an awesome RCIA class and facilitators, a gentle and faithful special needs adult, and my husband (at the time boyfriend) who treated me with more love and respect than I had thought possible, along with his wonderfully quirky and BIG Catholic family that embraced this only child Lutheran without a bit of obnoxious, self-righteous, pride. Those people were and are the most beautiful and loving representations of Catholicism. They didn’t draw me into “debates.” They met me where I was and let me walk beside them while they lived their faith until I was ready to join the road.

So you can go ahead and keep doing as you are but know, in the deepest part of your heart, that it turns people away. That what you describe is EXACTLY the attitude that turns people away from the Church we both hold dear. If that isn’t what you want, if you want to bring people to the Truth, stop it.

 

[Reuben_J]

Honestly, you got a point there. Everybody should be given a chance no matter how much it gall you to speak to them.

Problem is not everybody has this gift. I think in many ways I am a patient person yet that patience is often limited to how much I can stand the abuse and the accusation against the Catholic Church.

But you are right - we cannot dismiss these people outright. In their anger and objection to the Church, often there’s underlining search for the truth. Who knows, in a right situation the Holy Spirit can just zap them with that truth.

Many times we hear testimony of how a virulent anti-Catholic person can have a change of heart.

If you have the patient and grace with these type of Protestants, which is what we are talking about here, I think that is very good.

Others, whose ministry is often dealing with those Protestants who enquire and want to learn the Catholic faith, then they can focus more on these category.

Ultimately, it is to deal with them with love or at least not to get too deep in the argument as to hurt and anger oneself.

God bless.

 

[Lara]

If your boyfriend had been a Mormon from a quirky large Mormon family, and they had treated you very gently, with loads of love and respect, would you have become Mormon? Or were you also convinced by reasoning to join the Church?

Here’s the problem. If I gently tell my story, explaining why I’m Catholic, it doesn’t take more than a few minutes til the listener will lock onto something about the Church that bothers them, for instance, that divorced Catholics cannot remarry. They will start angrily stating why that’s unfair and ridiculous. Before long, I’m drawn into what is essentially a debate which can be pleasant or unpleasant. That’s where it’s important to be able to defend the faith. That is the role of learning apologetics.

You were possibly convinced by an emotional tug, but many Protestants are very well schooled in their responses, and need logical reasons to turn to the Church. Are you prepared to help that sort of person?

Believing in Catholicism above all religions doesn’t mean I’m proud, arrogant, or self-righteous.

There is no “deepest” part of my heart, just my heart.

 

[NiceIsAsNiceDoes]

And how is all that working for you? The OP asked a question, and I answered it.

 

[DeepDeepTrouble3]

Share with them stories from the life of Saint Padre Pio.

 

[Ellipses]

The irony here being that this forum seems to be completely overrun by Catholics who just won’t listen, and are so completely convinced they are correct on every issue, that no other opinion is valid. See: any topic involving homosexuality, sexuality in general, the pope or trump.

 

[JetteZ]

If your boyfriend had been a Mormon from a quirky large Mormon family, and they had treated you very gently, with loads of love and respect, would you have become Mormon? Or were you also convinced by reasoning to join the Church?

During the crash my husband lost his job and we ended up moving several states away. We knew no one and when we arrived on moving day the movers we had hired didn’t show up. We had my elderly parents, my husband’s sister, us, and 1 year old; so, when a bunch of Mormon guys, who were walking around town fulfilling a portion of their missionary service, offered to help… we figured why not. They moved sofas, boxes and boxes of books, they were truly a HUGE help. They never tried to convert us; they were just looking for a way to be of service to their community.

We became close friends with Mormons up the street from us because we had little boys the same age and were both Steelers fans.

At some point during our relationship we read up on Mormonism because it was evident how much faith and acting out of that faith was central to these people’s lives. We weren’t tempted to conversion, we just were in a close enough relationship that we wanted to understand them better. Our research left us scratching our heads as to how anyone could believe such things; but, had we been looking for faith, their actions would have gotten us in the door.

Here’s the problem. If I gently tell my story, explaining why I’m Catholic… Before long, I’m drawn into what is essentially a debate which can be pleasant or unpleasant. That’s where it’s important to be able to defend the faith. That is the role of learning apologetics.

You don’t need to tell your story (unless asked). Your life is your witness.

If people ask questions you can answer them without entering into a debate. An example I can think of specifically was regarding communion. It definitely started out, on their side, as a hostile “why can’t I take communion” diatribe. My response was empathetic, kind and based in knowledge, “I can totally understand why you would feel hurt at not being able to participate. Being excluded is hurtful and it is a pain we pray about at every Mass; that we will, someday, all be able to join in Communion together. Right now, because we believe that it is the actual body and blood of Christ, that a miracle takes place, we ask that those that don’t believe that don’t participate. It’s not about excluding, it’s about respecting God and the miracle that He is creating with us.”

Did I convert anyone? No; but, I also didn’t slam the door in their face. They know that I respect their beliefs and I validated their feelings. They still don’t like it; but, the visceral negative reaction they originally had was tempered.

Believing in Catholicism above all religions doesn’t mean I’m proud, arrogant, or self-righteous.

I take no issue with your beliefs, it is my perception of how your actions seem to lack empathy, love, and kindness.

There is no “deepest” part of my heart, just my heart.

I don’t know what you are trying to explain here.