Debating with protestants who just won't listen

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There’s no such thing as any one ‘true church’ and arrogant to believe you’re in one whether Catholic or Protestant. There’s truth and heresy in every church.
 
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Luke-Suncook said:
There’s no such thing as any one ‘true church’ and arrogant to believe you’re in one whether Catholic or Protestant. There’s truth and heresy in every church.
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No, it’s not arrogant for Catholics to believe we are the One True Church. It is our basic belief as Catholics.

We do need to respect that some Protestant may think his church is the “true church”, but we do not have to apologize for our belief that Catholicism is the “one true Church” or act like any old church will do. We would be contravening our beliefs as Catholics if we did that.

I presume you’re not Catholic, or you wouldn’t have made this statement.
 
Luke-Suncook said:
Padre is in the grave and can’t hear your prayers.
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7 Sorrows is correct. Padre Pio is a canonized saint. This means he is in Heaven.

It’s pretty obvious you’re coming at all this from your own uneducated (and disrespectful) point of view. Not sure what your point is here, other than trolling.
 
My family were Orthodox Jews for the most part, and my Italian grandmother knew nothing about protestants, so I hardly think any of my family influenced me, lol.

The priest who catechized me was very traditional, and part of the mainstream Catholic Church. We did not discuss protestantism however, only issues such as current Catholic heresies of the time, such as the Feeney movement, and Teilhard De Chardin.

My attitude comes from the traditional Catholic Faith and the saints of that Faith, such as the Catholic saints of the Catholic Counter-Reformation, as well as saints such as St Thomas More, St John Fisher, and the like.

And since the post Vatican II church says it has not changed, I assume we still accept those saints I named as valid, yes?
 
They do. And I don’t care. And yes truth is often perceived as “unkind”, but it is what it is.
 
Exactly. It’s just your perception. If you read what I wrote, nothing was lacking in empathy. The first post, I basically said three reasons I believe Protestants don’t listen: mental laziness, pride, and fear of conflict. In the second post, I explained that good behaviour won’t do a thing; it hasn’t helped me convert anybody on any point. I also defended myself against the charge of arrogance. In my third post, I stressed the importance of apologetics. Your basic point is you don’t like the way I said something, and I can’t help the delivery since no harm was ever indicated or meant.
 
I’ve been there, on both sides of that. They simply don’t know. Many do experience the work of God in their lives, and they aren’t open because of the lies they’ve been told about the Catholic Church… In all honesty, they don’t hate the Catholic Church. They don’t know about the Catholic Church—not truly. They hate what’s been presented to them as the Catholic Church… which is not truly the Catholic Church. Bl. Fulton Sheen said something like that.

Listen some to Scott Hahn—that can be helpful. Be mysterious. Speak truth and love them. Prove yourself their sister in Christ, and then they will be more willing to listen to you. Tell them how devoted you are to God in your heart and how much you love Him—the God of the Bible, the Trinity. Invite them to come and see some things… Invite them to a Catholic Bible Study, recommend the writings of the early Church Fathers, especially the Apostolic Fathers, Clement (who is mentioned in the Bible and worked with the Apostle Paul), Polycarp (who served with and learned how to do Church from the Apostle John), and Ignatius (whose letters were redistributed by Polycarp). I wish I could share more. I have so much to share with you and how to engage with Protestants, having been one of them. I am still an evangelical—a Gospel Christian—but I have just embraced the accountability and unity which God calls His People towards (1 Cor. 1:10-13a, John 17, Ephesians 1-5… I wish I could talk with you forever about showing how to engage with Protestants through the Scripture and reason they can understand…)

Most importantly, be their sister in Christ.

…Ask them how they’re growing in their prayer life, what they’re reading in the Bible, what they’re learning at church. That’s a great way to start an exchange. And listen. And encourage them in the good that they’re doing, and where things are lacking, encourage them, don’t attack them or berate them or the faith that they do have in Christ. Be genuinely kind and encourage them positively, without tearing them down. And then be there to share with them the good that God has for them… not that they’re damned if they don’t convert. They’re still not sure that this whole Catholic thing is legit yet, and so that might not even be true, as they may have sufficient faith in Christ and repentance of heart they may for the most part live in and hopefully die in.

Try and shock them with what the Catholic Church actually teaches… Okay, maybe not like that… and I’m not sure you would know how to do that having not been one… but one thing that blew me away was the Church’s teachings in the Catechism… what it actually says and teaches, which is biblically sound.
 
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Lara said:
Exactly. It’s just your perception. If you read what I wrote, nothing was lacking in empathy. The first post, I basically said three reasons I believe Protestants don’t listen: mental laziness, pride, and fear of conflict. In the second post, I explained that good behaviour won’t do a thing; it hasn’t helped me convert anybody on any point. I also defended myself against the charge of arrogance. In my third post, I stressed the importance of apologetics. Your basic point is you don’t like the way I said something, and I can’t help the delivery since no harm was ever indicated or meant.
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Whose job is it to communicate a point, the speaker or the listener?

It’s the speakers job.

The listener is going to respond to what they hear and if what they hear is someone calling them mentally lazy, prideful, and that they need to up their game they are going to hear something extremely condescending and not in anyway empathetic.

You say that isn’t your intent but your words say otherwise.
 
As a life hack, and this works for any debate, ask the other person this question: “what evidence, if it existed, could i present to you that would make you change your mind?”

If they say “Nothing” then end the conversation, you are not talking to a reasonable person.
 
That… actually isn’t the case here. I would have said nothing as well, and yet here I am. But that’s because the evidence wasn’t presented in debate format, but in the conversations about faith in life. The evidence still got through though. I’m honestly convinced that the right evidence over a period of time in honest life conversations, that answers all their most critical objections to the Catholic Faith in the right way could convince a Protestant.
 
Not sure what you mean i’m afraid. What evidence did you want? I’m just saying that if someone isn’t going to change their mind in the face of new evidence then debating is inherently pointless since debating is the comparison and weighing of evidence.
 
"Wannano:
Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that at the time of the Reformation it was the hierarchy that was anti-Protestant and not the laity.
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That’s a very interesting view of history.

The elites on either side weren’t typically found on the hundreds of battlefields. The people that you did find were common men - “laity” as you put it; both Protestant and Catholic.
 
I would think if you consider the Feeney movement to be heretical then you would be a bit less harsh on Protestants. A main theme of the Feeneyites, as I recall, is that they took a very hard line on “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” and pretty much said that if you were Protestant then you were damned.

I like More and Fisher, but they were living in a turbulent time. Since then, the Catholic Church has taken many steps to try to build bridges with our Protestant brethren. And, as you said, Feeney got in hot water with the Church due to his teachings, and he and his groups were in schism for a while (i think he reconciled with the Church before his death and at least one of his groups is back in communion with Rome now).

The Church used to take a much harder line on Protestants, including teaching that Catholics should immediately burn or give to a priest any Protestant Bible they were given or otherwise obtained, and making it quite difficult for a Catholic to marry a Protestant in the Church. Things are a lot different today. While in some cases, perhaps the Church goes a little far, I think in general there is a far greater acceptance today of Protestants as our brothers and sisters than there was during the time of Pope Pius X, let alone during the time of St. Thomas More.

It’s good to be enthusiastic about your faith, but some of your comments are extremely hard line, unlikely to convert anyone, and a bit offputting to those of us who have Protestant family members as well as to the Protestants who read this forum. Maybe rethink a little bit your attitude.
 
Sometimes taking a hard line gets through to some people. In my own situation, I was called a “christ killer” as a Jewish child, and I didn’t know who He was or why I was being called that. I asked my parents, found out, and then my Italian grandmother told me the full story of the Catholic Church and why Jews were called that by some in the Church. Odd as it may sound, it got me interested in the Faith, and I ended up converting as an adult.

Generally its true that you get more flies with honey than vinegar, but not always. 🙂
 
NiceIsAsNiceDoes said:
Here’s the thing. Those people you are trying to convince (the close-minded ones) feel the same way about you. They wonder why Catholics are so close-minded and arrogant to believe their Church is the one true church.
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Our belief is all provable with references properly referenced going back to the apostles.

Example:

Due to space limits per post, the info about the first 4 centuries, is highly condensed. Please open all internal links. I gave this answer on another thread awhile ago

"Trail of Blood" Baptist - #60 by steve-b link 1

"Trail of Blood" Baptist - #61 by steve-b link 2

"Trail of Blood" Baptist - #62 by steve-b link 3
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NiceIsAsNiceDoes:
You are wasting your time, effort, and treasure in trying to convert them by debating with them. You do you, and let them do them. At least they subscribe to a religion that shares some values you (I am sure) can appreciate. Remember that song “They will know we are Christians by our love”? It is so true. You can substitute “Catholics” for “Christians” if you like. It really is true. Model Catholic behavior and values to your protestant brothers and sisters. It is way more effective than debating them and trying to prove you are right about all things religion.
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If the opportunity presents itself, and we remain quiet, when we CAN give an answer but won’t, THAT could be construed as an act against charity.

Example: A timeless bit of advice. No expiration date on this advice.

Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

Note: we’re not judged on being successful, only that we gave the information when necessary.
 
steve-b said:
Example: A timeless bit of advice. No expiration date on this advice.
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This Old Testament passage is regarding a prophet’s call to be a sentinel (specifically Ezekiel’s); where is it interpreted as a general judgement for all?
 
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