Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[NotMyOwn]

Southern Baptists.

They are global and all over the world. This is true… That’s why they tried to change their name to “Great Commission Baptists”… but it didn’t go through.

You see, they’re not like Catholics. They have no order, no power to their people to vote on their boards outside the US. The SBC is too… American. The Gospel isn’t American, and so nor should be His Church. Southern Baptists get this though… but they can’t change everything they may desire… they love the way they are too much. Which isn’t a bad thing. They can keep their organizations and everything they do. But they’ll come to be Catholic; and will meet Catholic Obligations. And they will be in us, and we will be in them, and we will all be in God, and God in us, and the world will know the Impossible Christ who was born of one who did not engage in the activity prerequisite for birth, who though Infinite was also its Opposite. Impossible Christ who makes Protestants Catholic, and Catholics… Protestant. What I am saying is fully Orthodoxly Catholic. I get this from Dr. Peter Kreeft, renowned Catholic Apologist who puts each of us to shame. Read the transcript for “Ecumenism without Compromise”… and see “70x7 Reasons to be Both Protestant and Catholic”. The mere phrase may shock you. But what’s even more shocking is that if you actually listened to it, you would agree. You might call the title misleading (since you’d find no or at least little problem with it)… and Protestants would find it compelling… That’s how this works, guys, in the Story Written by the Impossible God.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism/ecumenism_transcription.htm

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Every affiliation wants to be the Catholic Church, but none of them like it. It’s funny. But use that. And use it strategically…

Oh, wait, you’re a Protestant. Still. I have nothing to hide. I only desire to infect you further with the Gospel, until you sneeze it in your sleep, and you cannot help but be a Catholic because it makes the most sense to you of anything in the world.

 

[NotMyOwn]

If you all want to be Real Apologists, and effective… Be like Dr. Peter Kreeft. He knows what he’s doing. He’s doing the right thing… which without compromising the Catholic Faith will make the Protestants Catholic.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism/ecumenism_transcription.htm

Everyone imitate Dr. Kreeft, and we’d all be great. We’d change the world, you know. We’d bend reality… to set this distorted world straight. We’d turn the world upside-down… to set it back on its axis.

Oh, Impossible God. Oh, Impossible People of God.

Glory… Glory… Glory Forever.

I think this might just be mad enough to work. No, I know it is. Even as I know the Unknowable God. Possible Impossible.

 

[NotMyOwn]

And before erupting at the title of the video… (which I know many of you will anyways, even though I’m writing this… When you go back and read this… then take it with a grain of salt.) Realize shock value is a thing. Take it with a grain of salt. It’s supposed to sound provocative; but it’s actually completely Catholic. Read the article thing and listen to 20 minutes of that (at least) before responding to it. (I personally recommend listening to it until you get to the part with the Charismatic woman… Here Dr. Kreeft may be mistaken.) (Don’t respond to the title… respond to the substance. I’ll give you a hint… It has absolutely nothing to do with 70x7. They were just looking for a name that sounded provocative.)

Dr. Kreeft is a trusted Catholic Apologist by Cardinals and Bishops and Priests and lay faithful all over the world, from the most traditional to the somewhat liberal.

 

[NotMyOwn]

You want to know what to do about Protestants. I’ve given you everything you need to set you on the right track. If you’ll receive it. If you’ll receive it. And by receive it, I mean read and listen to it… and then receive it, in proportion to Faith.

Seriously. Do not go nuts. Don’t go wild based on the title of a video, or how I myself worded things or said things provocative. I’m not talking about everything (unless you ask nicely), but as unconvincing as my saying it sounds, everything here is completely Catholic… very legitimately so. And without in any way compromising the Dogmas of the Catholic Faith, will change the world. This is it. The future has come, and it looks as ridiculous and impossible as the Immaterial, Infinite God taking becoming Incarnate in our Limited Humanity. As mad as the Virgin Birth. But it is true. And it is good. God is in it.

 

[NotMyOwn]

I’m not going to be able to spend any time on here tomorrow. Here’s to hoping this works out, and God uses this and directs the forum and I don’t have to answer. But you all will have to spiritually resist every whisper saying “fight”… You will have to fight fighting. You will have to argue… with your inclination to argue. You will have to be strong. And be like Christ. I believe in the Holy Spirit who lives in each of you all. If we as Christians cannot talk without falling into all sorts of disorder and dissensions, then what hope is there for the world?

Come Holy Spirit through the Hearts of the Spouse of God, I speak of the Faithful on this forum, over which you are God, as over everything… and grant us to join the Son in the Eternal-Procession of the Spirit from the Father, as we join in and conduct the very Energy of the Godhead, and manifest the Unseen Trinity—as the Trinity dwells undivided in each of us.

 

[NotMyOwn]

This information… in it, if you will listen… is how you debate Protestants who just won’t listen. (Well, one, you don’t. I hope that goes without saying. Debating is not listening. But do this, and you will be both an Apologist and an Evangelist. A fisher of men and women.)

The answer is in these. The answer to the question. Of course the answer is Christ. But in these posts explains how to be like Christ in this. How to be mysterious and a walking impossibility like Christ without compromising your Catholicity while being able to become all things to all, to, by the power and grace and model and Body that God provides, save the world.

 

[Reuben_J]

1. Rather presumptious, aren’t we? With that kind of attitude, no wonder you guys would not listen to anybody. Anyway subtract 1 billion ( Catholics) from that number though I would think you are not that many.
2. Dishonest reply. That’s why this is just an argument that until we are blue in the face, there’s no end to it. You’d realize that for every statement, make that sentence, you make, there is a Biblical verse pluck somewhere that support or rebut it. So where would that lead us? Ok. You can have that 6 billion popes then. Just to remind you but you’d know this already, St Paul also said that we are to submit to our leader who have spiritual authority over us. You see, you can pluck up any verse except that you did not listen to what was said. You did not respond to the post but merely stating another point. Sigh.

 

[Reuben_J]

Correction: apparently that was in Hebrew instead of St Paul.

 

[TheButler]

Does a Catholic believe in keeping the Commandments? (CCC#2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them…)

Does a Protestant believe in keeping the Commandments? Or do they preach faith “alone” because they claim it is too difficult to keep the Commandments?

I am a UK church bell ringer. I have been in many UK Protestant churches that have the Ten Commandments on huge boards written in gold on the walls.

Are you trying to say that all religions are the same? That doctrine doesn’t matter?

I’m simply suggesting that there is more than one route from A to B.

You didn’t answer the question about who loves the Son of the Father in Heaven greater.

 

[TheButler]

Rather presumptious, aren’t we? With that kind of attitude, no wonder you guys would not listen to anybody. Anyway subtract 1 billion ( Catholics) from that number though I would think you are not that many.

I thought the idea of Christianity was to spread the message through whatever means possible.

You are also being presumptuous. You have assumed I am Protestant. I am not. I am not Catholic either. I believe in a Creator and I believe that no matter how one gets to the Creator, as long as one does, it really doesn’t matter. Christianity, whatever the flavour, is one way. Judaism is fine. Islam is fine. Any religion that believes in the Creator is fine. I have said nothing to indicate a ‘side’. I’m quite neutral. If it takes seven billion religions to find the same Creator I have no issue with that. However, when any person or group insists on its own superiority I will always argue that no one or their beliefs are better than those of another.

St Paul also said that we are to submit to our leader who have spiritual authority over us.

If you believe submission to another human is the way to know the Creator, go for it. It’s your choice. You have free-will after all.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Does a Catholic believe in keeping the Commandments? (CCC#2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them…)

Does a Protestant believe in keeping the Commandments? Or do they preach faith “alone” because they claim it is too difficult to keep the Commandments?

I am a UK church bell ringer. I have been in many UK Protestant churches that have the Ten Commandments on huge boards written in gold on the walls.

Then why do so many claim its impossible to keep the Commandments.

Are you trying to say that all religions are the same? That doctrine doesn’t matter?

I’m simply suggesting that there is more than one route from A to B.

You didn’t answer the question about who loves the Son of the Father in Heaven greater.

[/quote]

Those who keep His Commandments. That is why I quoted Jesus. He who loves me keeps my Commandments. He goes on to say that those whi don’t love Him don’t keep His Commandments.

Now please answer miine. The Catholic Church Teaches us to keep God’s Commandments. Isn’t it true that most Protestant denominations teach it is impossible to keep God’s Commandments and some wven teach it is a sin to try to do so Isn’t that true?

 

[TheButler]

Those who keep His Commandments. That is why I quoted Jesus. He who loves me keeps my Commandments. He goes on to say that those whi don’t love Him don’t keep His Commandments.

Now please answer miine. The Catholic Church Teaches us to keep God’s Commandments. Isn’t it true that most Protestant denominations teach it is impossible to keep God’s Commandments and some wven teach it is a sin to try to do so Isn’t that true?

I think the key word there is ‘my’…
Matthew 22 36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That aside, I was raised Methodist. The Ten Commandments are validated in that denomination. The churches with the boards where I ring are Anglican so the C of E also teaches to keep them. As for the other denominations I can’t say. I can see why one might override the literal Ten in favour of the Jesus’ Two in that keeping the Jesus’ Two theoretically also satisfies the Ten if you take Matt 22 40 literally. I guess as long as they love God, aren’t stealing, murdering, betraying or disrespecting others it doesn’t really matter. The result is the same. The Jesus Two also add to the Ten by positively demanding mutual respect of others rather than just saying what one can’t do so in the case of homosexuality, for example, the Jesus Two should prevail and it be accepted rather than homosexuality being listed under adultery in the Ten as the Catechism details. I appreciate that is not the case. Why, I’m not sure. Just one of those things, I guess.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Protestants actually distinguish between “Saving Faith” and belief. Saving Faith includes genuine Repentance, in Protestant terminology. Repentance requires that one amend one’s life afterward (one is exempt if they’re about to die… (like the man on the cross next to Christ who repented) but in their heart they will have done so).

Protestants, at least those with this understanding that I had always been taught as a Protestant, do not teach that which the Church has condemned… and Catholic Teaching on the necessity of works is not heretical from a Protestant perspective… given that their understanding of Saving Faith includes having to come to repentance (metanoia) as our Savior taught, and as is the plain teaching of all of Sacred Scripture. A transfer of ownership of the life… recognizing Jesus not just as Savior, but also as Lord (which means consenting to doing what He says [and doing that which He requires, given the chance]) is all necessary for Salvation. And this can all be counted as under the larger heading of a “Saving Faith”.

We could argue Paul vs. James all day, but ultimately, both are in Scripture, and the Bible’s not a symbolic logic textbook. Words take on different meaning in different contexts.

Ooh, one thing I get Protestants with is Grace alone vs. Faith alone. We cannot “earn our salvation” by any effort on our part to believe. Only God can save us, and He does so through the atoning death of His Son on the Cross, into Unity with His Body. (Atonement also is at_one_ment. I love that.) It is because of this that we can believe, and work, and one day be raised with Him in Glory.
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Scholastic philosophy solves the “saved” (in certainty [though we cannot be certain… but we can make our calling and election ‘more sure’… which is still a sureness… Prots just lack full development and understanding in other areas of Soteriology…]) vs. “not yet saved” debate. Along with Scripture…
(I can explain this more, as I have time, and with request.) It relates with the “Eternal Now” which the Immutable God experiences, and so Predestination… and trajectory of lives.
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Here’s a great video on the Marian Doctrines of the Church… (though the ‘woman’ bit… we should concede the silliness of that… (even though it’s right… they’ll get it later… it’s not something you get until after a lot of contemplation and meditation and rumination on it… don’t get stuck on something silly and comparatively unimportant))

I can begin to deal with other issues and objections Protestants have, as you all would like.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Ooh, but one thing important to show Protestants…

King Saul, most likely not in Heaven, received the Holy Spirit like at Pentecost (1 Samuel 10:9-12) and he prophecied… to where it was asked “Is Saul also among the prophets?” I offer this as proof that God can work even in the lives of those not destined for eternal life. Protestants need this.

Also, in Isaiah, where this man who had already written Scripture, already been a man of Faith (already having “Saving Faith”), has the coal touched to his lips, and it is said that his sins are forgiven… This proves that Forgiving Grace can work at different times (and isn’t arbitarily placed across all of life) and also can be used to argue in favor of Purgatory.

Also, look up C.S. Lewis on Purgatory. This short little letter is incredibly good and useful with Protestants.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/purgatorycslewis.htm

 

[TheButler]

even though it’s right… they’ll get it later… it’s not something you get until after a lot of contemplation and meditation and rumination on it… don’t get stuck on something silly and comparatively unimportant)

Or you could keep it simple:

Genesis 2 25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

(It makes sense to me. But then I’m probably lacking full development and understanding.)

 

[NotMyOwn]

No, I’m talking about in the video. Talking about Jesus calling Mary “Woman” in John. There’s more important things… Not good to get caught up on that detail. There are more compelling arguments in the video that Mary is the New Eve, and more Doctrines to work on besides that one.

 

[De_Maria]

As for the other denominations I can’t say.

Well, I can. Ask @TgGodsway. I’m pretty sure he’ll be happy to explain to you that it is sinful to try to keep the Commandments.

I know that several Anglican churches have already come to home to Rome. And I’ve attended some of their masses. They seem to be completely in line with the Catholic Church.

However, I keep hearing conflicting information from converts who say that some Anglicans may as well be Baptists. That they reject the Sacraments and faith and works.

Does the C of E have a centralized authority? Or do the various churches just do what they think best?

 

[AnnetteJoan]

Its not a public area, its on a friend’s timeline, with her friends.

 

[Reuben_J]

I admit that I just considered you are one of those non-denom Christians. You sounded like a smart one dissenting with my post. My observation with different Christian groups is that we often talk passing each other, a similarity I saw in your reply.

I love honest discussion where there is sincere acknowledgment of each other idea. I understand and acceot differences, where they exist. I find arguing for the sake of it is childish, which is the issue brought up in this thread.

Your plucking the Biblical passage looks like a google search which did not address my post at all. Unfortunately, that is often my experience with Bible thumping Protestants. It seems they love throwing Biblical verses at Bible ignorant Catholics like as if they want to intimidate us.

I do do not use Bible verse much in discussion because one can wrongly use a verse to support or rebut one’s point without taking the whole Bible message in a context.

My aoplogy for assuming for which you are not. The new format of the Forum does not indicate one’s religion at a glance but I am not blaming that, rather the common snag in internet discussion.

Thanks for the last sentence. I take that as a compliment and encouragement for my belief. I would like to reciprocate - and you too as well, whatever your belief/religion is.

God bless.

 

[Augustinian]

Maybe because I was never a protestant I don’t understand this, but WHY are they so close-minded and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church?

Debating anyone who won’t listen is an exercise in futility.