Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[TheButler]

Sure the people can read for themselves, and then so what? You will be having say thirty thousands councils and popes.

I would have thought seven billion…

Everybody having their own thought and opinion; it is a man to himself. You do not have to sumbit to anybody, as long as you think you follow Jesus teaching in the Gospels. Great.

Paul told us to submit to one another as equal individuals with a collective community purpose.

Ephesians 5 14-21
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Therefore, I have to warn you, the Catholic Church has the fullness of the Truth. And even Catholics are not guaranteed salvation. So, how much harder will it be for those who do not adhere to her Teaching?

De_Maria, this statement is laughable. the “fullness of the truth?!” Nothing could be further from the truth. I consider the CC to be one of the weakest links in a very large chain of Christian perspective. But I can assure you, I’m being very generous in comparison to others in my ranks who see you the way you see us.

I know. I’ve been talking to Protestants for over twenty years. It’s rare to have a truly polite discussion. When I first started apologetics, I naively thought that I should be really nice and bite my tongue on many things. But, I soon learned that if you don’t give as good as you get, Protestants won’t take you seriously. So, I quit being a Protestant walking mat.

But I will defend you to them in a heart beat because the body of Christ is not about how one postures themselves, but more about the love of God to all of God’s people.

Thanks. I don’t say that I will defend Protestants from Catholics, because I see a totally different mindset, usually. It is Catholics who are taught that Love saves. And that doesn’t matter if it emanates from a Protestant, a Hindu, or a Catholic.

There are a few Catholics who have the wrong mindset, but they are usually driven to it by experiences such as the one had who started this thread. I know, I’ve been the brunt of that almost my entire life.

And as far as this guarantee to salvation, of course you don’t have it. No matter how you spin it, you are in a system of good works…

Lol! You see, this is what gets Catholics upset. We say we are saved by faith AND works. But Protestants insist on twisting our words.

Do you understand the conjunction, “and”?

… yet to be tallied up.

But we await God’s tallying. From what we see, you declare yourself saved by your statement of faith alone.

The concept of a free gift fades.

1. We don’t see the terminology, “free” gift, in Scripture.
2. There are many sorts of gifts. And many of them are not “free”. Have you ever seen the various types of donations and gifts given to a hospital? Many of them have many constraints.
3. God’s donation comes with His qualifications.
   a. a person of faith (Heb 11:8)
   b. who does good deeds (Matt 25:31-46).
   c. in obedience to His will (Heb 5:9)
   d. and obeys the Magistrates He appointed (Heb 13:17).

But I did like the 1st. Peter 4:17 passage. Is that the judgment seat of Christ? of what?

Do you really believe that God only judges us one time at the end of time? or what?

 

[De_Maria]

crenfro:

With an actual debate both sides would be open to the other.

A rare perspective on this site. I agree.

That’s because that is a perspective open only to Protestants. We believe that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church. Why would we want anything else?

We believe the Catholic Church provides us the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Why would we want anything else?

We believe the Catholic Church provides us a family with the Saints of God, who watch out for us and pray for us. Why would we want anything else?

Those of us who understand the Teachings of Jesus Christ, through the Catholic Church, will not trade down.

 

[De_Maria]

steve-b:

That’s a contradiction in terms. Just say you’re Protestant

Why?.. it’s not like you have copy rights on the word Catholic. You guys include this word in every other sentence, so that we all know you are universal. But guess what! We too (Evangelicals, reformed, Methodist, Baptist, ect. …) are universal, therefore, we are Catholic.

That’s easily disproved. None of those denominations are all over the world. And many of them tell on themselves. For example: Southern Baptists. South of what? Southern states of the US.

The Catholic Church is the one, universal, Christian Church which is in every country in the world.

 

[De_Maria]

I have often found that most Protestants want the ability to choose and decipher exactly what they believe and interpret scripture in they way they think it best.

They don’t seem to be able to grasp the idea of an absolute truth outside of themselves. Just as @TgGodsway just said, they want to have a discussion where both sides are “open” to the other’s ideas. As Scripture says, they are blown around by every wind of doctrine.

 

[De_Maria]

TheButler:

But what is someone who was raised in a protestant group, never baptized Catholic, and simply believes as they do because they don’t know any better? What category do they fall into? Heretic? Schismatic?

Simply believes?.. Simply believes in Jesus as the Christ. If this is the case, then they, according to Jesus himself have eternal life.
Heretic or Schismatic is nothing more than crazy making.

Then why did St. Paul condemn all those who brought different gospels? They all claimed Jesus as Lord. In fact, what did Jesus say in Matt 7:21?

 

[tgGodsway]

Lol! You see, this is what gets Catholics upset. We say we are saved by faith AND works. But Protestants insist on twisting our words.

Agreed De_Maria. I misspoke there. You are right about this. It is a salvation of faith plus works…

 

[Le_Cracquere]

I haven’t witnessed any of your arguments, so can’t say. In my experience, though, when I’m in debate with other people, it’s uncommonly tempting to dismiss them as “close-minded,” “irrational,” or “ridiculous,” or as someone who’s simply failed to listen.

After all, the problem couldn’t possibly be my choice of arguments, or anything wrong-spirited in my approach! It’s sometimes tough to give other people credit for being reasonable, thoughtful, men who simply have the temerity to differ from me in good faith! But, you know, there are such people. I don’t always think my interlocutor right, but it’s entirely possible for him to have heard what I said and still disagree with me–even on something near to my heart!–for intellectually respectable, mature, sincere reasons.

Now, you might well feel the same way about all this, and might have encountered any number of Protestants whose religious demurrals you don’t consider silly, willful, or perverse. But the tenor of your original post leaves that possibility a little unclear. I trust I’m mistaken?

 

[De_Maria]

The bible is the inspired word of God. This is why we rely on it and trust it.

Don’t tell me you’re one of those who believe the Bible fell out of heaven into Luther’s open arms?

Let’s look at it logically.

1. Did the Bible write itself? No. Do we agree?
2. If not, who wrote the Bible? Men who were inspired by God. Right? Do we agree?

Who were these men?

The Jews wrote the Old Testament.
Catholics wrote the New.

If you don’t believe that Catholics wrote the New Testament, then who did? Yeah, the Apostles and Disciples were the very first Catholics.

That’s why we trust the Church. Because God inspired Catholics to preach His Word to the world and to write the Scriptures. (Matt 28:19-20)

 

[tgGodsway]

That’s easily disproved. None of those denominations are all over the world. And many of them tell on themselves. For example: Southern Baptists. South of what? Southern states of the US.

Yes I know this. But you see the Church as an entity of organization. I see the Church as living souls out in the public all over the world. There are Evangelicals all over the world shedding the light of Christ. I’m sure there are some in non-Christian countries as well. The Church for us is as Peter saw it, made up of “living stone built up to a spiritual house …” 1Pet.2:5.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That’s easily disproved. None of those denominations are all over the world. And many of them tell on themselves. For example: Southern Baptists. South of what? Southern states of the US.

Yes I know this. But you see the Church as an entity of organization. I see the Church as living souls out in the public all over the world. There are Evangelicals all over the world shedding the light of Christ. I’m sure there are some in non-Christian countries as well. The Church for us is as Peter saw it, made up of “living stone built up to a spiritual house …” 1Pet.2:5.

And you don’t see the organization which Jesus put in place when He appointed Simon as the Rock and thus leader of the Church and the Apostles as His Board of Trustees?

Do you really think that this organization was meant only for one generation and then was supposed to die with the Apostles? Where is it written?

P.S. By the way, we see the Church as the Body of Believers, as well. But Church has more than one meaning.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Lol! You see, this is what gets Catholics upset. We say we are saved by faith AND works. But Protestants insist on twisting our words.

Agreed De_Maria. I misspoke there. You are right about this. It is a salvation of faith plus works…

And, what is yours, exactly? Do you really believe that a man who does not do good works in obedience to God, will be saved?

 

[TheButler]

They all claimed Jesus as Lord. In fact, what did Jesus say in Matt 7:21?

He said:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Now. What is the will of Jesus’ Father in Heaven?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

They all claimed Jesus as Lord. In fact, what did Jesus say in Matt 7:21?

He said:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Now. What is the will of Jesus’ Father in Heaven?

That we should love His Son.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[TheButler]

That we should love His Son.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If that is the case does a Catholic love His Son more than a Protestant?

 

[po18guy]

If you think about it, the entire Protestant movement was comprised of those who would not listen. We cannot shout loud enough to gain their attention, but the Holy Spirit certainly can.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That we should love His Son.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If that is the case does a Catholic love His Son more than a Protestant?

Does a Catholic believe in keeping the Commandments? (CCC#2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them…)

Does a Protestant believe in keeping the Commandments? Or do they preach faith “alone” because they claim it is too difficult to keep the Commandments?

 

[De_Maria]

If that is the case does a Catholic love His Son more than a Protestant?

Second response to same message:

Are you trying to say that all religions are the same? That doctrine doesn’t matter?

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

 

[qmitchell30]

This, in a way, was the reason I converted to the Catholic Church. I got to the point were I thought, would God really let everyone just try and figure everything out by with just the Bible, which is the word of God. However, we are not God, so we are limited in our understanding of His word. I finally came to the realization that if He was true and existed He must have set forth a structure to preserve the truth and proper understanding of His word and preserve His truth that was not written down, so that the entire world could know the truth.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Really? No argument? Well…

Maybe I know that? Maybe apologetics isn’t about arguing after all? Maybe it’s about gradually shifting others’ perspectives?

To win Prots over, we need to ‘rewire’ them, modify their perspectives in a way that they don’t know what’s happening. That means starting with them where they’re at, and bit by bit make them Catholic before they know what hit them.

I can address each issue. For Purgatory see C.S. Lewis on the matter… but use it well. Hit them strategically with it… you only get one shot.

Apologetics done successfully, which helps evangelism… Is like many viruses. You have to disable them with it before they develop sufficient antibodies. Each virus you inject them with, you have to make it count. You have to be strategic and pick the issues strategically. If they put up a fight and throw a fit, it’s too late, you’re not going anywhere, drop it and change the subject. You want them calm and unassuming as you bit by bit alter their perspective with information.

That’s the only way to make people not hate Catholics. And it’s the only way of integrity (manipulative though it sounds from how I’m saying it) to evangelize.

You see, I don’t think you’re speaking of Prots correctly. Catholics need to stop thinking of their religion as if it were similar to the Catholic one… it’s very different. The kind of Prots I’m speaking about are concerned about the whole Body of Christ, which most don’t identify with their denomination, but the whole of Christendom (not using this word to refer to a geographically or nationally-limited entity).

The idea of a United Church is Scriptural, and as much as Protestant culture has adapted to the reality that there never came to be a unified Protestant Church, it has never forgotten it. It still longs for a United Christian Church… It still longs for a Catholic Church. And for the Unity of all true Christians… as accords with Scripture which is God’s Design.

So do not presume to lecture me, nothing though I am, on the Three Circles or that process! And you never move past them! I still haven’t, and I’m already Catholic!