Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[NotMyOwn]

Debating anyone who won’t listen is an exercise in futility.

This is to her, not to you, Augustinian
One more thing for now, and I’m done. Yeah, exactly right. That’s why it’s important to make some sort of connection… arrive at some sort of common ground, and quick. That should be the first thing, when that’s been established, you can transition the conversation to private messaging, which may be better. And continuing to reinforce what’s in common when encountering obstacles, you can press on and provide a good defense for the Teachings of the Catholic Faith. The resources I’ve provided are useful — This also is a good resource:
http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/are_catholics_christian.php

Audrey Assad actually shared this on FB in a messages convo Not with me, with someone else. Audrey Assad is awesome. Former-Protestant, herself.

You want to know how to engage with Protestants? Learn from Protestants what worked for them (those who aren’t bitter or going around talking garbage about their former congregations and co-religionists.) Listen to lots of stories, and I’m not talking about those on EWTN “The Journey Home.” A lot of those are fascinating… for sure check them out (but only use what they say if you think they’ll be receptive… if not, or if they aren’t, move on to something else), but I’m not sure that they all present well where they’re from and how they actually got there… they’re too formal for my tastes. You want authenticity. Because Protestants can tell if you aren’t being authentic. And it’s through the authentic stories of people that you can learn how to direct others…

I don’t think you want to know how to debate Protestants. I think what you really want to do is convince Protestants, or at least get them to say something like, “Okay, that makes sense… I’ve never heard a Catholic explain it like that before… I’ll have to think on this. I don’t necessarily agree with it… but I can see your passion for the Glory of God, and I understand better now why you believe as you do.” That sort of thing, that’s an ideal close to a beginning early engagement. That’s what we’re aiming for. We want them to say that they’ll think over what we’ve told them because they hadn’t really considered it before, and it makes sense in a Christian worldview.

 

[NotMyOwn]

The way to debate Protestants… or anyone… is to flip the argument on its head. It’s to make them think you weren’t even arguing… you want them to feel like they agree with you, and bit by bit you reveal Catholic truth as they are ready to really see it, and receive it.

Like one of those slow light alarm clocks… not one that beeps and screams really loud… No one wants to be woken up like that. Nobody. Gently wake them, pleasantly, like beams of sunlight through a curtain, gently falling upon them… And their eyes will wake to see the beautiful world with friends and family around them and it will be pleasant… like waking up in Rivendell.

For meditation…Think of a time or several when you’ve wanted to get out of bed, and there was no trouble, no wrestle. It just felt natural, and there was a serenity and a rejoicing in your heart, and you rose and were ready to start the day, pleasantly. There was no rush, but you had serenity and peace and life and joy in your soul so you were ready to get ready and live the day. That is what you want to reproduce for them.

 

[tgGodsway]

Well, I can. Ask @TgGodsway. I’m pretty sure he’ll be happy to explain to you that it is sinful to try to keep the Commandments.

WHAT… ?? That isn’t right.

 

[tweedlealice]

Our church did not want us to read Bible untill Vatican II. In senior year in HS. West Catholic in Philly, we’d meet in auditorium and they’d light candles. Say a prayer and then our Priest would read scripture…
When I was 10yo(?) we weren’t allowed to go into Protestant Churches. My Uncle died and was Methodist. We went to his funeral and I know we RC’s were WRONG! We were told you’d only go to heaven if you were Catholic… I was worried about my Methodist Father. I prayed. I wished upon the star that my Fayher would become Catholic. Later., my brother had a baby and his daughter was allowed to have my father be a godparent for a Catholic Baptism. They had 2 god mothers…
The church released its arms to love God’s children
globally.
My father raised my 2 brothers and me to be Catholics as a Methodist.
Today, the Orthodox faith does not want their parishioners to enter any other denomination.
We, Romans, may give communion to Orthodox but they state before communion, only come up if you’re Orthodox.
A long time ago, Rome sent Templers to Constantinople to kill heretical Orthodox priests/PPL.
Arianism time??
So, Pope John Paul II, was trying for unification but there are problems w Who is boss? The Pope or the Bishop. The format of mass is a little different.
In Rep. of Ga, they stand three hours for service… Dang, that’s long. Some pews for old ppl. My son was married in that church. He had to convert to Marry. My grandfather had to convert to marry my grandmother. He hated us after that and would break rosaries up if found…HMMM. His kids all went to Catholic schools. I Had a priest go talk to him on death bed. I wish I was a fly on Wall!
In Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Well, I can. Ask @TgGodsway. I’m pretty sure he’ll be happy to explain to you that it is sinful to try to keep the Commandments.

WHAT… ?? That isn’t right.

It isn’t. Then, you don’t believe in Christ’s completed work and you believe in adding to His work?

 

[AnnetteJoan]

This is so not true, to claim the Church did not want Catholics to read the Bible until after Vatican II!

I have never had any serious associations with V2 Catholics (what we in the Traditional Movement call “novus ordo Catholics”)…I have had only fleeting associations and acquaintances with them.

And I will tell you that all of the Traditional Catholics I know, some of whom lived before V2, know Scripture thoroughly (myself included), read it daily, and can quote sections by heart, including my godfather.

ALL of the pre-Vatican II Bibles I have (I don’t have any other kind, actually) contain a prayer in the front to the Holy Ghost for enlightenment as Catholics study the Bible, and there are indulgences attached to reading Scripture for at least one quarter of an hour (all of this is in the front of pre-Vatican II Bibles.)

What the Church was against was Catholics reading corrupted protestant translations which could damage their Faith.

Please do not perpetuate the lie spread by protestants and uneducated novus ordos, that the pre Vatican II Church did not let Catholics or did not want Catholics to read the Bible. THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

[Augustinian]

Our church did not want us to read Bible untill Vatican II. I

Can’t speak to your individual church, but I own an old Catholic bible from the 1950’s that came with the house and was left by a previous owner(not the guy I bought it from). Bible reading wasn’t universally discouraged at all.

 

[tgGodsway]

I would love to add to Jesus’ work. I am a worker at heart raised with a good work ethic. But what is not stated here is WHY should I work? for what purpose? What do I hope to accomplish by working?

 

[De_Maria]

What do you hope to accomplish?

Keep in mind what Scripture says:
Phil 2 12-13

Philippians 2:12-13New International Version (NIV)

Do Everything Without Grumbling
12 Therefore my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—**continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, **13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

 

[tgGodsway]

Agreed,… I will work out what God has worked in… This is a good reason to work, so that God can “will” and "Act through my life for his good purpose. Awesome stuff. Thank you.

 

[De_Maria]

I’m truly surprised we are in such agreement. But thats good for a change. I didnt know you believed in working your salvation out with fear and trembling. I thought you believed in salvation by faith alone.

 

[tgGodsway]

De_Maria, … thank you, but we probably aren’t talking about the same thing. The Philippians passage you quoted is typically used by both Catholic and Protestants groups to mean what you think it means. I think it is important to know WHY we do what we do, for what purpose.

Let me go over the verse again with a more reformed view, using the Holman Christian Standard version.

Paul said, " So then, my dear friends, …"

He calls them his friends or his beloved in most other translations. Paul was talking to “all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi including the overseers and deacons”, Ph.1:1)

These were not unsaved people. These were people who possessed eternal life. These were justified believers who were also sanctified in terms of maturity, and in leadership positions. Already, I’m sure you have a problem with this notion seeing that for you justification is something not yet final until the end of one’s life. But for Paul and other’s like the Philippians, it was always spoke of as a settled position.

What is he telling these born again believers?.. "Work out your own salvation… "

Question: Is the word salvation here used in a temporal or eternal context?.. the answer is temporal. Work out your own salvation=deliverance with fear and trembling…

Paul was not talking about their eternal salvation. Why not? Well for one, he didn’t directly or even indirectly say so. He was talking to people who already possessed eternal life.

Therefore they were to work out all that God had worked IN. … Why? so that they may be blameless and pure children of God…

Blameless where? at the judgment seat of Christ to which they will give an account of their works.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

That’s a contradiction in terms. Just say you’re Protestant

Why?… it’s not like you have copy rights on the word Catholic. You guys include this word in every other sentence, so that we all know you are universal. But guess what! We too (Evangelicals, reformed, Methodist, Baptist, ect. …) are universal, therefore, we are Catholic.

Here’s Why

Catholic is the proper name of the Church Jesus established. It’s been that name of the Church, in writing, since the beginning. Jesus didn’t start Protestantism. He wouldn’t do that. Because it’s against His very prayer He made before He ascended back to heaven. There is to be NO DIVISION but PERFECT UNITY. You know the prayer, it’s been mentioned 100’s of times here on Catholic Answers.

Jn 17:
20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

Protestantism is a 16th century invention by heretical men, and all its offshoots. In your DNA as a Protestant, follow the history of Protestantism yourself. Luther the heretic, is the father of Protestantism. He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1521. Followed by Henry VIII in 1532. Then came Calvin, then Wesley, Smyth etc etc down to today.

While still a Protestant, John Henry Newman made the following statement famous while trying to answer a HUGE question for himself. And after study that he wasn’t happy with, he had to admit

To be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant From The Christianity of history is not Protestantism Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Introduction Newman reader.

Once one becomes knowledgeable of the truth, AND the consequences for one’s soul who is divided from and won’t come into the CC, or divides from and won’t end their division from the CC, and return to the Catholic Church, THEN they won’t go to heaven when they die. That’s from scripture.

From one of my previous posts
Division described from scripture as well as the consequences on one’s soul Debating with protestants who just won't listen - #86 by steve-b

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria, … thank you, but we probably aren’t talking about the same thing. The Philippians passage you quoted is typically used by both Catholic and Protestants groups to mean what you think it means. I think it is important to know WHY we do what we do, for what purpose.

Let me go over the verse again with a more reformed view, using the Holman Christian Standard version.

Paul said, " So then, my dear friends, …"

He calls them his friends or his beloved in most other translations. Paul was talking to “all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi including the overseers and deacons”, Ph.1:1)

These were not unsaved people. These were people who possessed eternal life. These were justified believers who were also sanctified in terms of maturity, and in leadership positions. Already, I’m sure you have a problem with this notion seeing that for you justification is something not yet final until the end of one’s life. But for Paul and other’s like the Philippians, it was always spoke of as a settled position.

Then, if it is already a done deal, please explain why, in another place, he said,

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

He explains that hope is not a done deal, in another place, still:

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

So, if we continue to wait for salvation, why do you claim that he says it is a done deal?

What is he telling these born again believers?.. "Work out your own salvation… "

Question: Is the word salvation here used in a temporal or eternal context?.. the answer is temporal. Work out your own salvation=deliverance with fear and trembling…

Paul was not talking about their eternal salvation. Why not? Well for one, he didn’t directly or even indirectly say so. He was talking to people who already possessed eternal life.

And he was telling these people, who already possessed eternal life, that it wasn’t a done deal. They had to continue in good works, until the end, if they wanted to be saved. He, elsewhere, also said:

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Therefore they were to work out all that God had worked IN. … Why? so that they may be blameless and pure children of God…

And if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be blameless and pure and thus, would not be saved.

Blameless where? at the judgment seat of Christ to which they will give an account of their works.

Exactly! So, we still seem to agree. But why are you seemingly, objecting? Do you not believe that these works are necessary for salvation? What if the individual does not do these good works?

 

[steve-b]

De_Maria:

That we should love His Son.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If that is the case does a Catholic love His Son more than a Protestant?

Re: that passage mentioned, Jesus qualifies by stressing those who love Him. John 14:15 RSVCE - The Promise of the Holy Spirit - “If - Bible Gateway that’s a condition. “if you love me you will keep my commandments” IOW one might think they love Jesus but in reality if their actions don’t show it Their claim is just a “said” love.

Jesus requires complete submission to Him and His will.

Quoting from scripture,

The apostles taught, ergo it came from Jesus, and the Church taught this, from the beginning

Division, sedition, schism. dissension, heresy, are all condemned activities as are those who are in these sins.

That’s not from me or my opinion. It’s from scripture

Division / dissension διχοστασίαι , from http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm ,

That same word for dissension in Greek διχοστασίαι is used in both the following passages

The following aren’t suggestions. They are commands to be followed OR ELSE

Rm 16:17-21, Rom 16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway
&
Gal 5:19-21 lists grave sins Gal 5:19-21 RSVCE - Now the works of the flesh are plain: - Bible Gateway

Why are they all grave (mortal) sins? Note the consequences? (Gal 5:21] “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. “ IOW they go to hell when they die in that sin.

Could someone say today, Gee Paul that’s not “nice” of you to say that. Sure, but would he change the message? He can’t

add to it

Schism σχίσματα , http://bibleapps.com/greek/4978.htm = schism (division) Note Re: the Ref: of Clement of Rome, Clement’s letter to Corinth, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm written ~80 a.d., Note: in that link (Strong’s) shows a rent took place in Corinth which any kind of division is condemned. When it is from the pope it is schism

Heresy / divisive./ schism αἱρετικὸν , http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm ,
Titus 3:10-11, Tit3:10-11 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway IOW one who is disposed to form sects, heresies, schisms etc. The consequences? Paul says to Bp Titus, “After admonishing such a person once or twice, have nothing more to do with them, They are perverted, and in serious sin, That person is self condemned.”

The great heresies in history The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers

 

[tgGodsway]

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation

Because for Paul the word salvation was used in more than one way. Typically when people see this word, they automatically assign it to eternity. This happens on both sides of the isle. There is a knee jerk reaction to this word salvation. But the word simply means to be delivered from one thing unto the next. The context will determine if it is eternal or temporal.
So Paul said, “But let US… (he included himself) but who were they? in this case, they are the saved Thessalonians. Let them “be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.” Salvation in what sense, temporal, or eternal?.. If it were temporal, it should read like this, " … putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of eternal salvation.” But you will not find a passage like that anywhere in the N.T. unless that is what the author intended to say and mean.
But Paul goes on… "… For God did not appoint us to wrath (a reference to the second coming in the tribulation period) but to obtain salvation (which is deliverance,) through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that this particular passage was talking about literal deliverance in the tribulation period because of the context. We are not appointed to the wrath of God poured out in the tribulation period, but to obtain literal deliverance through Jesus Christ.

So, if we continue to wait for salvation, why do you claim that he says it is a done deal?

Because the context will determine exactly what kind of salvation he’s talking about. For us, we are already delivered = saved= from the penalty of sin, which is eternal death in hell. Yet the power of sin still remains, not in our spirit, but in our soul. We still need to be delivered from one level to the next from the very power of sin in terms of our behavior. This is not JUSTIFICATION, This is SANCTFICATION. Sanctification, (contrary to the CC) comes after justification.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation

Because for Paul the word salvation was used in more than one way. Typically when people see this word, they automatically assign it to eternity. This happens on both sides of the isle. There is a knee jerk reaction to this word salvation. But the word simply means to be delivered from one thing unto the next. The context will determine if it is eternal or temporal.
So Paul said, “But let US… (he included himself) but who were they? in this case, they are the saved Thessalonians. Let them “be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.” Salvation in what sense, temporal, or eternal?.. If it were temporal, it should read like this, " … putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of eternal salvation.” But you will not find a passage like that anywhere in the N.T. unless that is what the author intended to say and mean.

That’s just you, reading into Scripture, what you want it to say.

The fact is, that the only way that this makes sense is if he is talking about eternal salvation. Otherwise, what else is he talking about?

But Paul goes on… "… For God did not appoint us to wrath (a reference to the second coming in the tribulation period) but to obtain salvation (which is deliverance,) through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The ETERNAL salvation for which we all hope.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with @TgGodsway

I believe that this particular passage was talking about literal deliverance in the tribulation period because of the context. We are not appointed to the wrath of God poured out in the tribulation period, but to obtain literal deliverance through Jesus Christ.

About the literal deliverance for which we hope.

You are literally twisting St. Paul’s words to your own destruction, as St. Peter warned.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

So, if we continue to wait for salvation, why do you claim that he says it is a done deal?

Because the context will determine exactly what kind of salvation he’s talking about. For us, we are already delivered = saved= from the penalty of sin, which is eternal death in hell.

If you remain in it. But many have fallen away.

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Yet the power of sin still remains, not in our spirit, but in our soul. We still need to be delivered from one level to the next from the very power of sin in terms of our behavior. This is not JUSTIFICATION, This is SANCTFICATION. Sanctification, (contrary to the CC) comes after justification.

Justification and sanctification are two sides of the same coin. When one is justified, one is sanctified, by definition. When one is made righteous in the eyes of God, he is also made holy by God.

1 Thess 5 is clear, we are awaiting salvation. And again, in another place, St. Paul says:

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

He, himself, a spirit filled prophet, Apostle of Jesus Christ, did not count himself as having attained eternal life.

 

[tgGodsway]

You are literally twisting St. Paul’s words to your own destruction, as St. Peter warned.

Please give a detailed example.

 

[tgGodsway]

in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

How so? explain.